The Covenant is only for Israel - Not the World

[Soyeong]

Doesn't really address anything I have posted.

What have you said that I have not addressed?

All well and good, now show me some credible, verifiable, historical or any other kind of evidence showing that many synagogues regularly welcomed, uncircumcised former pagan Christians, who were not Jewish proselytes, into their synagogues?

In Acts 15:21, they were expecting Gentiles to continue to learn about Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. This would have never been said if Gentiles would not have been welcome to do that.

You are still refusing to give any reason why you think that tens of thousands of Jews and untold numbers of Gentiles would have been insufficient to form synagogues where they could have taught Gentiles free from the presence of anyone who wanted to persecute them.

And if they did, how would those Christians grow in knowledge and Christian faith attending Jewish synagogues listening only to the OT?

They would have attended synagogues populated by tens of thousands of Jewish believers who would have taught from both the OT and the NT. Its is not clear to me why you are pretending like Christian Jews and Gentiles couldn't have formed their own communities where they taught Gentiles how to obey the Torah and about Christ, who spent his mistery teaching his followers how to obey the Torah.

 

[Der Alte]

What have you said that I have not addressed?
In Acts 15:21, they were expecting Gentiles to continue to learn about Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. This would have never been said if Gentiles would not have been welcome to do that.

That is NOT what the vs, says. The Jews didn't need the 4 rules the council set for gentiles because they already had Moses preached to them every Sabbath, the gentiles didn't. You are aware that Jesus said more than once His disciples would be persecuted and even killed? Jesus never says that His disciples would fellowship with Jews.

Matthew 10:17​

(17) But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;​

Matthew 23:34​

(34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:​

Mark 13:9​

(9) But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.​

Luke 2:11​

(11) And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:​

Luke 21:12​

(12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.​

John 16:2​

(2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.​

You are still refusing to give any reason why you think that tens of thousands of Jews and untold numbers of Gentiles would have been insufficient to form synagogues where they could have taught Gentiles free from the presence of anyone who wanted to persecute them.

See 6 vss. above. Other than one vs., which I think is being misinterpreted, is there any evidence of 10K + Jews and Christians forming mixed synagogues? I remind you that Paul who was a Jew and Pharisee was persecuted everywhere he went for preaching Jesus.

They would have attended synagogues populated by tens of thousands of Jewish believers who would have taught from both the OT and the NT. Its is not clear to me why you are pretending like Christian Jews and Gentiles couldn't have formed their own communities where they taught Gentiles how to obey the Torah and about Christ, who spent his mistery teaching his followers how to obey the Torah.

Show me the evidence? I have shown you mine. What happened to the 7 churches in "Asia", i.e. modern Turkey; Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea. What is the predominant faith in Turkey today?

 

[sparow]

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the new covenant church of Mount Sion and the blood of Jesus in Hebrews 12:22-24. What does your Bible say in this passage?



.

I see three problems, semantics, context and misuse of scripture.

Mosaic Covenant, is OK in context, but it is a jargon or device used in false doctrine. It would have been better had Soyeong said God's covenant is forever; I am not aware that the tribe of Israel made a covenant with Moses; so there is God's covenant, first administered by Moses, and later, administered by Christ.

Acts is a history of what the apostles did, it is not a certification that what they did was correct. The “we” in Acts 15:24 are Peter James and John and the Jerusalem church; they gave no such commandment that gentiles must be circumcised and must keep the Law. The big question is what is the context?

My opinion which will be different to most is: The first resurrection is Primarily for the descendants of Israel (Jacob), and any who have entered into the covenant, who will be Kings, Judges and Priests (public servants of the Kingdom; the second resurrection is for the rest of the world, some saved most lost.

 

[BABerean2]

Again, I agree that we are under the New Covenant and I have been speaking in regard to the way that we should live under it.

The New Covenant commandments are clearly stated below, yet you try to ignore them because they do not agree with you. You cannot love a friend and commit adultery with his wife. You cannot love a person and kill them. There were 613 Old Covenant commandments, but only two in the New Covenant. "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself."


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


Law of Christ: Pastor Charles Leighter

.

 

[BABerean2]

My opinion which will be different to most is: The first resurrection is Primarily for the descendants of Israel (Jacob), and any who have entered into the covenant, who will be Kings, Judges and Priests (public servants of the Kingdom; the second resurrection is for the rest of the world, some saved most lost.

A Millennium Puzzle to solve… Will Christ be conducting funeral services for mortals killed in accidents 500 years after His Second Coming?


The “first resurrection” in Rev. chapter 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation, because the two witnesses are resurrected from the dead in chapter 11. There are two different types of resurrection in John chapter 5. There is a spiritual resurrection from the dead in John 5:24, and a bodily resurrection from the dead in John 5:28-29.


Does your view of the Millennium agree with what Paul said in 2 Thess. 1:7-10, when Paul said Christ returns in "flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not obey the Gospel? The fire comes at the end of Rev. chapter 20.


Does your view agree with what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13, when Peter said this earth is going to burn and "dissolve" when He comes as a thief on the day of the Lord? The fire comes at the end of Rev. chapter 20.


Does your view agree with what Paul said in 2 Tim. 4:1, when Paul said both the living and the dead will be judged at His appearing? The time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some and destruction for others is found in Rev. 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible. (This verse also proves the Book of Rev. is not in chronological order.) The judgment of the dead is also found at the end of Rev. chapter 20.


Does your view agree with what Jesus said in Matt. 25:31-46, where He described the judgment of the sheep and goats, which leaves no mortals alive on the planet at the end of the passage? There are also no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Rev. chapter 19.


Does your view agree with Peter in 2 Pet. 2:4, and Jude in Jude 1:6, when they both said wicked angels are already in chains of darkness?


Does your view agree with what John recorded in Rev. 9:1-2, when an angel comes down from heaven with a key to unlock the pit, which means the pit was locked before that time? Are there wicked angels already in the pit in Rev. 9:11? John recorded angels already "bound" in Rev. 9:14. The beast "ascends" out of the pit in Rev. chapter 11, which means the beast was in the pit before that time.


Take all of the above and compare it to the symbolic language found in Rev. chapter 20, and the fact the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and you will have the truth.

===============================================================================

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation: (book not in chronological order )


Christ returns one time in the future. However, there are several different visions of His return shown from different perspectives in the Book of Revelation.



Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


Chapter 20?
Does He come with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1?
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked before that time? Are there wicked angels in the pit in Rev. 9:11? If the beast "ascends" from the pit in Rev. chapter 11, where was the beast before that time?
Does your view agree with Peter in 2 Pet. 2:4, and Jude in Jude 1:6, when they both said wicked angels are already in chains of darkness?
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels were previously bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The principle of "Recapitulation" means there are multiple visions of His return.

.

 

[Soyeong]

The New Covenant commandments are clearly stated below, yet you try to ignore them because they do not agree with you. You cannot love a friend and commit adultery with his wife. You cannot love a person and kill them. There were 613 Old Covenant commandments, but only two in the New Covenant. "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself."

According to Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so do you agree or disagree with this verse?

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not asked about what all of the commandments of the NT are, but about what the greatest commandment of the Torah is, and the existence of the greatest two commandments implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest two. Everything commanded in the Torah is an example of what it means to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. So you're on the right track that if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery or murder, and we also won't commit theft, idolatry, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for everything else commanded in the Torah, so again they are the greatest two commandments because they are inclusive of all the other commandments, which is contrary to your insistence there are only two in the New Covenant. When you try to pick up the greatest two commandments all of the other commandments of the Torah come with because they are all hanging on the greatest two. In Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus said that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold, so we can't obey the law to love while disobeying all of God's other laws for how to love.

Even if you think that the four things listed in Acts 15:19-21 are all the things that Gentiles should do, then that would mean that there are more than two laws in the New Covenant, which does not list the greatest two commandments. Furthermore, the command against sexual immorality includes the laws against things like rape, incest, adultery, fornication, bestiality, and prostitution, so I don't see any grounds for insisting that there are only two laws in the New Covenant.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Jesus summarized the Torah as being about how to love God and our neighbor, Jesus expressed his love through his obedience to the Torah and that is how we are to love one another as he loved us. In 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of the Torah, so I don't see any grounds for thinking that 1 John 3:22-24 is speaking about doing something other than or contrary to the Torah, especially when the Torah is God's instructions for how to believe on theme of His Son Jesus Christ.

Law of Christ: Pastor Charles Leighter

.

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example, so I don't see any grounds for thinkings that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to what Christ taught.

 

[BABerean2]

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example, so I don't see any grounds for thinkings that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to what Christ taught.

You quote Jeremiah 31:33, but ignore Jeremiah 31:32.

You talk about Christ fulfilling the Law of Moses perfectly, which He most certainly did, but then you ignore what Paul said about the temporary nature of Mosaic Covenant in Galatians 3:16-29.

All man-made Bible doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work. The "Hebrew Roots" doctrine is exposed by this principle.

============================================================================

What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word.


Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.


What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.


New Covenant Whole Gospel:


Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.

Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)



We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.


Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.


Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Watch the YouTube videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.


The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[Soyeong]

You quote Jeremiah 31:33, but ignore Jeremiah 31:32.

You talk about Christ fulfilling the Law of Moses perfectly, which He most certainly did, but then you ignore what Paul said about the temporary nature of Mosaic Covenant in Galatians 3:16-29.

All man-made Bible doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work. The "Hebrew Roots" doctrine is exposed by this principle.

============================================================================

I have not ignored either Jeremiah 31:32 or Galatians 3:16-29, but rather you are ignoring that I have already addressed those verses, such as in posts #118 and #140. It is bizarre that you would accuse me ignoring verses to make my position work while you are resolutely ignoring Jeremiah 31:33 in order to make your position work.

What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word.


Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.


What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.


New Covenant Whole Gospel:


Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.

Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)



We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.


Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.


Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Watch the YouTube videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.


The New Covenant: Bob George

.

Likewise, I've already addressed this:

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts. However, one of the biggest reasons why Orthodox Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah is because in Christians teach that Jesus did away with the Torah, and thus the Gospel has been greatly hindered from reaching Orthodox Jews because Christians have perverted it. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah of Judaism, but he is not recognized by modern Orthodox Jews because he has been dressed up like a Gentile who taught his own religion that broke off from Orthodox Judaism. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for the Torah, so Jews who were coming to faith were not ceasing to obey it, which means that there was a period of time estimated to be around 7-15 years between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 during which all Christians were Torah observant Jews. So Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its Messiah, which means that it is when Christianity returns to its roots and starts to practice Orthodox Judaism as followers of the Messiah that we will begin to undo centuries of damaged relations, we will be able to present Jesus to Orthodox Jews as the Messiah in a way that we will recognize, and we will once again start to see these kinds of numbers of Jews accepting the Gospel message.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of Christ, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey the Torah by word and by example. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in the Gospel of Christ in regard to what he accomplished through his ministry and through the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20).

In Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying what He has commanded, so if Jesus had done that, then Orthodox Jews who have rejected him as being the Messiah for that reason would be correctly acting in accordance with what God has instructed them to do.

 

[BABerean2]

Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey the Torah by word and by example.

If your statement above is correct, you do not need a Savior because you can save yourself by keeping the Law of Moses.

What does Paul say below about the two covenants?

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


.

 

[Soyeong]

If your statement above is correct

Which part of my statement do you question whether it is correct?

1.) Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah.

2.) We we told to follow Christ example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

3.) We are told that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).

4.) Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey the Torah by example.

you do not need a Savior because you can save yourself by keeping the Law of Moses.

That does not follow. We need a Savior to save us from not living in obedience to the Mosaic Law by teaching us how to live in obedience to it. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept him saving us from not living in obedience to it. Saving ourselves does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is incorrect to think that relying on what God instructed is trying to save ourselves rather than relying on God to save us.

What does Paul say below about the two covenants?

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

You are still ignoring Jeremiah 31:33, which says that the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law. Likewise, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves the Spirit leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to the Mosaic Law brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! There are many other verses that say similar things, so 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 needs to be understood in a manner that is accordance with these verses and not a manner that is contrary to them. If correctly doing what God has instructed leads to death, then God is misleading us and should not be trusted, but rather obeying God should be trusted and obeying Him leads to life.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-5 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to obedience to God's law. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith (Galatians 3:10-11). Again, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

According to these verses, a covenant that has ratified can't be nullified by a later covenant, which supports the eternal nature of the Mosaic Covenant along with verses like Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8, and Psalms 119:160.

Galatians 3:19 should not be interpreted in a way that undermines everything that he accomplished. Jesus did not go around teaching people to stop repenting because the Mosaic Law has ended, but just the opposite. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent as the seed to whom the promise was made to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26). If Jesus had nullified God's eternal law, then that would have nullified the promise, which again is again contrary to Galatians 3:16-19.

Furthermore, in Galatians 3:26-29, every aspect of being children of God, in Christ, through faith, being children of Abraham, and hears to the promise is directly connected to living in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic Law are not children of God. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, in Matthew 23:23, faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him. In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children to do that, and because his children did that. In Psalms 119:1-3, the Mosaic Law is how the children of Abraham knew how to blessed by walking in His way, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, which completely undermines how you are trying to use Galatians 4:24-31. Furthermore, the Mosaic Law came through the line of the free woman, not the line of the slave woman, so you are completely missing Paul's point.

 

[oikonomia]

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

I am a Gentile. I am non-Jewish. And I fully partake of the fact that God reserved me to be a vessel of mercy according to His own sovereignty.

Romans 9:23-26 -
In order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom He has also called, not only from among the Jews but also from among the Gentiles?
As He also says in Hosea, “I will call those who were not My people My people, and her who was not beloved beloved;
And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there shall they be called sons of the living God.”

Notice when Paul says "us" he includes his own thoroughly Jewish self (of the tribe of Benjamin) and the Gentiles who God has called.
Together, they are "My people." - “I will call those who were not My people My people,"

Why would you want to dampen this God ordained confidence I have in being one of His people?
Why would you wish to harrass and undermine this assurance reminding me of Jeremiah 31:33?
Divine Selection has ordained that I be of His people.

God isn't making a covenant with the world, He is only making the covenant with the House of Israel/the Twelve Tribes. If the world does not change citizenship to become part of Israel, they will not be given the Holy Spirit. Also when Christ returns, he's not coming to save the world, He is returning to save Israel--and Israel only.

This is terrible teaching and demonstrably untrue.

The new covenant in His blood is to be taught to all the nations.
And similarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant established in My blood, which is being poured out for you. (Luke 22:20)
This redemption is to be preached to all the world.
And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled. (Luke 24:44)

Lk 24:45-48 - Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures;
And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day,
And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
You are witnesses of these things. (vs. 47,48)

His instructions were that His new covenant salvation be proclaimed TO ALL THE NATIONS.
So why are you twisting the Bible to teach "God isn't making a covenant with the world, He is only making the covenant with the House of Israel/the Twelve Tribes."?

This is a system of error you are teaching.

Jeremiah 16:14-15 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that it shall no more be said, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ but, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.’ For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.'

God can do that and also establish a new covenant (according to the prophesy of Jeremiah) with "all the nations."
The two actions are not mutually exclusive. It is not that because He returns Jews from the dispersion therefore He cannot make a covenant, a new covenant to all the nations.

Matt. 26:26-28 - And as they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed it, and He broke it and gave it to the disciples and said, Take, eat; this is My body. And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you, For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Again, this covenant including all His teaching was to be preached to all the nations.

Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age. (Matt. 28:19,20)

The Exodus and End Times are book ends. The entire Bible is Israel-centric; it only ever has to do with Israel and nations that come in contact with Israel. But just like during the Exodus, a great mixed multitude came out with Israel.

Genesis and Revelation are book ends.
Before there was an Israel to be "centric" about Genesis showed CREATED MAN was placed before "the tree of life" to receive the divine life of God. From God's original purpose for Adam and all humanity God planned to dispense His eternal and divine life and nature into human beings.

Christ coming as the life fulfills this eternal purpose pre-dating the formation of ANY nations including the nation of Israel.

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (John 1:4)

But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life. (4:14)
I am the bread of life. (6:48)
I am the living bread which came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread which I will give is My flesh, given for the life of the world. (v.51)
He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. (7:38)
Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me, even if he should die, shall live; (11:25)
Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me. (14:6)

Before your "Israel-centric" concept God's eternal economy was His plan to dispense Himself as divine life into His creature man.
And Jesus, the Messiah and Son of God, came to give divine life to the world by means of His redemptive death and victorious resurrection.
He as the "life giving Spirit" brings MAN back to the eternal purpose of God.

So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

How does this set with people who are against the Hebrew Roots movements, or those from the past who accused Christians of Judaizing and persecuted them for it?

I don't know much about the Hebrew Roots movements. I know of Messianic congregations of Jews and sympathetic Gentiles who sometimes
tend to have reactionary exalting of the Torah above the Son of God.

In the new covenant church there CANNOT BE divisions between nationalities. It is not that there SHOULD NOT BE. It is not liberal type accomadation. Paul says there is no possibility of social and racecial stratifications and divisions. The CANNOT BE such.
If you want the genuine church life you cannot have racial and ethnic divisions. If you wish to keep racial and ethni divisions then you cannot have the genuine church life. The two are mutually exclusive.

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there cannot be slave nor free man, there cannot be male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:27,28)

And have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
Where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man, but Christ is all and in all. (Col.3:10,11)

Once again. This is not a matter of a tolerant "OUGHT not be" or "SHOULD not be".
This is the impossibilty of enjoying a normal new covenant church life if people wish to hang on to racial, ethnic, color, gender and national stratifications.

There are abnormal "churches" where Christians TRY to hang on to divisions which CANNOT BE in the church of Christ.
These are divisions and denominations. These are self defeating entities which are spiritually weakened many times because
what CANNOT BE is attempted to allow to Be.

Mind you that the proper and normal church life is to be filled with the glory of the Triune God FOREVER unto eternity.

To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen. (Eph. 3:21)

Did you get that? "glory in the church and in Christ . . . forever and ever."

If you're not Israel, you won't be rescued.

Nonsense.
The salvation of the Triune God is a rescue from everything that is not God into a mingling of His life into our life.

All else can be an idol. And the Apostle John says we should guard against anything that replaces the Triune God and being in Him and knowing Him.

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the evil one.
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Little children, guard yourselves from idols. (1 John 5:19-21)

Anything replacing in our hearts the Father and the Son and the Spirit flowing into us can be an IDOL.
Exalt ANY nation, even an ethnic Jewish Israel, above the dispensing Triune God leads to idolatry.

John did not write verse 21 because he suddenly ran out of space. The admonition to keep ourselves from idols is directly related to being in Him who is true - in His whom He sent. This is the eternal life. This is the true God.

If you want to talk about God having a new covenant church AND keeping certain promises to the Jewish nation, that is one thing.
He can do both because He keeps His promises.
Any thought that the Christian church is a temporary matter and not central to God's heart is a false teaching.

She is the pre-cursor of the New Jerusalem. And in the church is to be dispensed to fullness of the one who fills all and all.
Every genuine local church God intends to be a minature of the final eternal New Jerusalem in building, transformation, a work in progress.

And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church,
Which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all. (Eph. 1:22,23)

To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen. (Eph. 3:21)

 

[BABerean2]

Furthermore, the Mosaic Law came through the line of the free woman, not the line of the slave woman, so you are completely missing Paul's point.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


Your argument is with Paul, instead of with me.



.

 

[oikonomia]

I would like to contribute a few Scripture Songs on the subject matter of the One New Man and the New Covenant.
Enjoy singing the pure word of God along with me.

 

[Soyeong]

That is NOT what the vs, says. The Jews didn't need the 4 rules the council set for gentiles because they already had Moses preached to them every Sabbath, the gentiles didn't.

Indeed, those who already knew the Torah wouldn't have needed that restriction because they wouldn't have been overwhelmed by the other laws while those who were unfamiliar with the Torah would have been overwhelmed if they had been accountable to follow everything in it on day one, which is why there it is good to avoid overwhelming them by giving them some laws to start with and to continue to teach them more each Sabbath in the synagogues. If you don't think that is what it says, then what do you think is the point of verse 21?

You are aware that Jesus said more than once His disciples would be persecuted and even killed? Jesus never says that His disciples would fellowship with Jews.

Matthew 10:17​

(17) But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;​

Matthew 23:34​

(34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:​

Mark 13:9​

(9) But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.​

Luke 2:11​

(11) And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:​

Luke 21:12​

(12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.​

John 16:2​

(2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.​

Why do you refuse to consider that there is a connection between what people do and how they are treated? If I went into a synagogue populated by non-Christians and started preaching the Gospel of Jesus, then I would likely cause some of them to become angry with me whereas they wouldn't have been angry with me if I hadn't done that. Jesus and his disciples were all Jews and they found fellowship with each other along with other Jewish believers, but the reason why they were facing persecution was because they were going into synagogues in order to proclaim the Gospel and testify about Jesus. For example, Stephen's speech in Acts 7:1-53 enraged his audience and made them want to kill him.

See 6 vss. above. Other than one vs., which I think is being misinterpreted, is there any evidence of 10K + Jews and Christians forming mixed synagogues? I remind you that Paul who was a Jew and Pharisee was persecuted everywhere he went for preaching Jesus.

It is good that on some level you are connecting Paul being persecuted everywhere he went because he was preaching Jesus everywhere he went, so those who were not preaching Jesus everywhere they went would not have been persecuted everywhere they went. This means that the 6 verses that you cited are not evidence of all Gentile believers being persecuted everywhere regardless of what they did and not evidence that tens of thousands of Jewish believers and untold numbers of Gentiles believers wouldn't have been been able to form their own synagogues where Gentiles could have been taught about the Torah/Jesus while being free from persecution. Gentile believers would not have faced persecution from Jews who were also believers in Jesus. For example, in Acts 10:34-48, Gentiles were included, believed the Gospel, and received the Spirit, and in Acts 11:1-18, this was accepted with giving glory to God by those that Peter reported to. In Galatians 2:12, Peter has been eating with Gentile believers, not persecuting them.

Show me the evidence? I have shown you mine. What happened to the 7 churches in "Asia", i.e. modern Turkey; Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea. What is the predominant faith in Turkey today?

You have shown evidence that Jews were persecuted for preaching Jesus, not that Gentile believers faced persecution everywhere they went regardless of what they did.

 

[Der Alte]

Indeed, those who already knew the Torah wouldn't have needed that restriction because they wouldn't have been overwhelmed by the other laws while those who were unfamiliar with the Torah would have been overwhelmed if they had been accountable to follow everything in it on day one, which is why there it is good to avoid overwhelming them by giving them some laws to start with and to continue to teach them more each Sabbath in the synagogues. If you don't think that is what it says, then what do you think is the point of verse 21?
Why do you refuse to consider that there is a connection between what people do and how they are treated? If I went into a synagogue populated by non-Christians and started preaching the Gospel of Jesus, then I would likely cause some of them to become angry with me whereas they wouldn't have been angry with me if I hadn't done that. Jesus and his disciples were all Jews and they found fellowship with each other along with other Jewish believers, but the reason why they were facing persecution was because they were going into synagogues in order to proclaim the Gospel and testify about Jesus. For example, Stephen's speech in Acts 7:1-53 enraged his audience and made them want to kill him.
It is good that on some level you are connecting Paul being persecuted everywhere he went because he was preaching Jesus everywhere he went, so those who were not preaching Jesus everywhere they went would not have been persecuted everywhere they went. This means that the 6 verses that you cited are not evidence of all Gentile believers being persecuted everywhere regardless of what they did and not evidence that tens of thousands of Jewish believers and untold numbers of Gentiles believers wouldn't have been been able to form their own synagogues where Gentiles could have been taught about the Torah/Jesus while being free from persecution. Gentile believers would not have faced persecution from Jews who were also believers in Jesus. For example, in Acts 10:34-48, Gentiles were included, believed the Gospel, and received the Spirit, and in Acts 11:1-18, this was accepted with giving glory to God by those that Peter reported to. In Galatians 2:12, Peter has been eating with Gentile believers, not persecuting them.
You have shown evidence that Jews were persecuted for preaching Jesus, not that Gentile believers faced persecution everywhere they went regardless of what they did.

Read you last sentence and then read the vss. I quoted from Jesus again. Was Jesus lying or mistaken? Gentile Christians who were not Jewish proselytes would not be welcomed in synagogues. Christians attending synagogues, if they even did, would not grow in knowledge of the Christian faith. All they would hear would be Torah. None of the NT books were addressed to Jewish synagogues.

Matthew 10:17
(17) But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Matthew 23:34
(34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mark 13:9
(9) But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 2:11
(11) And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
Luke 21:12
(12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
John 16:2
(2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.​

 

[Soyeong]

Read you last sentence and then read the vss. I quoted from Jesus again. Was Jesus lying or mistaken? Gentile Christians who were not Jewish proselytes would not be welcomed in synagogues. Christians attending synagogues, if they even did, would not grow in knowledge of the Christian faith. All they would hear would be Torah. None of the NT books were addressed to Jewish synagogues.

Matthew 10:17​

(17) But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;​

Matthew 23:34​

(34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:​

Mark 13:9​

(9) But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.​

Luke 2:11​

(11) And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:​

Luke 21:12​

(12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.​

John 16:2​

(2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.​

No, Jesus was not lying or mistaken, but rather it is you who is mistaken because Jesus was speaking in the context of Jews spreading the Gospel and testifying about him. You have still given no reason to doubt that tens of thousands of Jews believers could have formed synagogues where Gentile believers were welcome to grow in knowledge of the Torah/Jesus. The Torah is God's word and Christ is God's word made flesh, so teach Gentiles about the Torah is teaching knowledge of the Christian faith.

 

[Soyeong]

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Your argument is with Paul, instead of with me.

I agree with that verse, so my argument is not with Paul, but with how you are misconstruing what he said.

Galatians 4:27-31 For it is written, “Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married.” 28 Now you, my friends, are children of the promise, like Isaac. 29 But just as at that time the child who was born according to the flesh persecuted the child who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the scripture say? “Drive out the slave and her child; for the child of the slave will not share the inheritance with the child of the free woman.” 31 So then, friends,[j] we are children, not of the slave but of the free woman

Paul said that we are children of the promise like Isaac and being children of the promise directly connect to living in obedience to the Torah. In Genesis 19:18, Genesis 26:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children how to do that, and because his children did that in obedience to the Torah. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works that he did, so connected the works that Abraham did with the works that the children of Abraham ought to be doing, and the works that they ought to be doing was obeying the Torah. The child born according to the flesh persecuting the child born according to the Spirit is Ishmael persecuting Isaac, and driving out the bondwoman and her child is driving out Hagar and Ishmael, not Sarah and Isaac. We are children of Sarah and Isaac and that is the line through which the Torah was given, not the line of Hagar and Ishmael.

Galatians 4:24-26 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One woman, in fact, is Hagar, from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia[g] and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother.

While Sarah corresponds to the Jerusalem that is above who is free as she is our mother, there is a problem with the present Jerusalem that is causing it to correspond the bondwoman Hagar, which is not right because we are children of the free woman and present Jerusalem should also be free like her, but it is in slavey because we are being persecuted by the son of the bondswoman. Paul was not saying that God put us into bondage through what He command at Sinai, but that we are in bondage, that the covenant is bearing children for slavery because of Hagar. Again, in Galatians 5:1, it is for freedom that God sets us free, so God did not free us from Egypt in order to put us into bondage to His commands, but the line of Hagar is causing the present Jerusalem to be in bondage. Abraham did something with Hagar that he was not supposed to do that was not in accordance with God's will, which is what caused the bondage, and it is not doing God's will that is causing the present Jerusalem to be in bondage, not obeying God's will.

 

[Der Alte]

No, Jesus was not lying or mistaken, but rather it is you who is mistaken because Jesus was speaking in the context of Jews spreading the Gospel and testifying about him. You have still given no reason to doubt that tens of thousands of Jews believers could have formed synagogues where Gentile believers were welcome to grow in knowledge of the Torah/Jesus. The Torah is God's word and Christ is God's word made flesh, so teach Gentiles about the Torah is teaching knowledge of the Christian faith.

More presuppositions. Please show me some kind of credible, verifiable, historical evidence etc. that former pagan Gentile Christians, anywhere, actually, "formed synagogues where Gentile believers were welcome?" From the Jewish Encyclopedia "Gentiles," previously linked, I would say the possibility of that happening was slim to none. Let us suppose a Jewish synagogue in e.g. Corinth, Greece did that, would they still be welcome to fellowship with other synagogues which were not followers of Yeshua?
.....I worked for the military commissary system for 20+ years. In the 90s while stationed in Korea I was assisting a Jewish Chaplain obtain what they needed for Passover. I mentioned to him that a Christian congregation was also planning a Passover. Very snarky he said "That isn't a scriptural passover."

 

[Soyeong]

More presuppositions. Please show me some kind of credible, verifiable, historical evidence etc. that former pagan Gentile Christians, anywhere, actually, "formed synagogues where Gentile believers were welcome?" From the Jewish Encyclopedia "Gentiles," previously linked, I would say the possibility of that happening was slim to none. Let us suppose a Jewish synagogue in e.g. Corinth, Greece did that, would they still be welcome to fellowship with other synagogues which were not followers of Yeshua?
.....I worked for the military commissary system for 20+ years. In the 90s while stationed in Korea I was assisting a Jewish Chaplain obtain what they needed for Passover. I mentioned to him that a Christian congregation was also planning a Passover. Very snarky he said "That isn't a scriptural passover."

More handwaving. What you've quoted does not establish that Gentiles faced universal persecution from Jews and in fact what you've quoted in context shows that they did not. Even if your quotes hadn't been take out of context, they still wouldn't establish that Gentile faced universal persecution. For example, the quotes from the Bible in context are referring specifically to the way that Jews who were going into non-Christian synagogue in order to preach the Gospel and testify about Jesus, not about everyone regardless of what they did, and even if everyone did face that kind of persecution regardless of what they did, it wouldn't mean that they never had a moment where they weren't being persecuted. While Paul face a lot of persecution because of what he was doing, not even he faced universal persecution no matter where he went without a moment that was free from persecution, but rather he also interacted with Jews who were receptive to what he said who did not persecute him.

If there was a synagogue populated by Jewish and Gentile believers, then they could still be a place where Gentiles could learn about how to follow Christ's example of obedience to the Torah even if they did not have fellowship with non-Christian synagogues. Furthermore, it is not as though the only two possible reactions to Paul's message was to ether accept it or want to kill him. For example, in Acts 5:33-42, Gamaliel came to their defense. Christian denominations often don't have fellowship with other denominations, but it still happens sometimes.

 

[Der Alte]

More handwaving. What you've quoted does not establish that Gentiles faced universal persecution from Jews and in fact what you've quoted in context shows that they did not. Even if your quotes hadn't been take out of context, they still wouldn't establish that Gentile faced universal persecution. For example, the quotes from the Bible in context are referring specifically to the way that Jews who were going into non-Christian synagogue in order to preach the Gospel and testify about Jesus, not about everyone regardless of what they did, and even if everyone did face that kind of persecution regardless of what they did, it wouldn't mean that they never had a moment where they weren't being persecuted. While Paul face a lot of persecution because of what he was doing, not even he faced universal persecution no matter where he went without a moment that was free from persecution, but rather he also interacted with Jews who were receptive to what he said who did not persecute him.
If there was a synagogue populated by Jewish and Gentile believers, then they could still be a place where Gentiles could learn about how to follow Christ's example of obedience to the Torah even if they did not have fellowship with non-Christian synagogues. Furthermore, it is not as though the only two possible reactions to Paul's message was to ether accept it or want to kill him. For example, in Acts 5:33-42, Gamaliel came to their defense. Christian denominations often don't have fellowship with other denominations, but it still happens sometimes.

Even more suppositions. Not interested in presuppositions. Please show me some credible, verifiable, historical evidence which documents that there were any Jewish synagogues which welcomed former pagan uncircumcised Christian who were not proselytes to Judaism. One of their rabbis said that the "best of gentiles is worthy of death" another said "The issue [baby] of a gentile is as the issue of a beast."