Is the church still relevant?

[DogmaHunter]

These are good points.
But if I also think about and reason out for myself why God said don't do XYZ or do ABC, then I am not now both obediently moral and reasoningly moral?

That would depend on how you approach that.
If in that exercise you still operate under the dogmatic premise XYZ MUST be immoral and ABC MUST be moral because god said so, then no.

At that point, if you can't find any reason for why ABC is moral, you'ld still be calling it moral because god said so.
Or worse: if your own reasoning informs you that ABC is actually immoral, then you'ld still call it moral "because god said so".

If however, you approach this with the mindset that you could actually come to a conclusion that doesn't agree with what god said....

But at that point, one would have to wonder why one would bother with what god supposedly did or didn't say... since at that point you can come to moral conclusions by yourself - regardless of what the bible states.

So now I have the best of both types of morality:

The "obedience" thing is not a type of morality. That's my whole point.
Obedience is just obedience.

Morality is all about inention, motivation and reason.
Mere obedience is all about..... being obedient, for the sake of being obedient.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Quoting a book is not evidence in and of itself. Can you show the reasons why we should accept what the book says?

Dave, people have discussed this with you time and time again. The only thing to say at this point is that your disbelief does not you right or Christians wrong.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Dave, people have discussed this with you time and time again. The only thing to say at this point is that your disbelief does not you right or Christians wrong.

 

[Rajni]

Mere obedience is all about..... being obedient, for the sake of being obedient.

This is important to remember.
Obedience isn't automatically a virtue all by itself.
A person can be obedient to a mafia boss, to the
detriment of themselves and those around them.
They don't get a gold star simply because they
were "obedient".


-

 

[MennoSota]

Where does one find meaning? Just because you need it assigned to you from elsewhere doesn't mean the rest of us are so limited.



A slave that can choose to become a master is hardly a slave.




And having God as the Architect is an improvement.... how?

Read the Bible to find meaning.
Ecclesiastes is a great book, written for atheists and agnostics to ponder the meaning of life. Read it.

Without God, life is meaningless. Neitsche understood this clearly. Why do you balk at the reality of your situation?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Read the Bible to find meaning.
Ecclesiastes is a great book, written for atheists and agnostics to ponder the meaning of life. Read it.

Without God, life is meaningless. Neitsche understood this clearly. Why do you balk at the reality of your situation?

I've read Ecclesiastes, along with the rest of the bible. I'll grant you that it is probably the best book of the old testament, however it's nothing overly special.

That being said I find plenty of meaning in my life, and god is not required for that. Therefore your statement is disproven.

 

[MennoSota]

However, if your morality can be constructed via reasoned thought and argument, then you have made god irrelevant to morality.

You cannot create morality without God. Everything is void of value and purpose since you are merely a connection of molecules that will break up and move on when they are done clinging together.
At best you have illusions of reality created in the Matrix of your own mind.

 

[MennoSota]

That would depend on how you approach that.
If in that exercise you still operate under the dogmatic premise XYZ MUST be immoral and ABC MUST be moral because god said so, then no.

At that point, if you can't find any reason for why ABC is moral, you'ld still be calling it moral because god said so.
Or worse: if your own reasoning informs you that ABC is actually immoral, then you'ld still call it moral "because god said so".

If however, you approach this with the mindset that you could actually come to a conclusion that doesn't agree with what god said....

But at that point, one would have to wonder why one would bother with what god supposedly did or didn't say... since at that point you can come to moral conclusions by yourself - regardless of what the bible states.



The "obedience" thing is not a type of morality. That's my whole point.
Obedience is just obedience.

Morality is all about inention, motivation and reason.
Mere obedience is all about..... being obedient, for the sake of being obedient.

Morality is defined by God, in His word, given to mankind. It is the standard of measurement by which we determine tight from wrong.

 

[Dave Ellis]

You cannot create morality without God. Everything is void of value and purpose since you are merely a connection of molecules that will break up and move on when they are done clinging together.
At best you have illusions of reality created in the Matrix of your own mind.

On the contrary, god is irrelevant to morality, even if he existed.

Why?

Because even if your god were real, he must have some reasons for considering some things good, and some things bad. Presumably god would have logical and rational reasons for reaching his conclusions.

If that is so, if we properly employ logic and rationality, we would also reach the same conclusions as your god.

Therefore, he's irrelevant. You can construct at the very least an identical moral system whether he existed or not.

That being said, we can do far better than the moral code that is presented in the bible... but that's a different argument.

 

[MennoSota]

I've read Ecclesiastes, along with the rest of the bible. I'll grant you that it is probably the best book of the old testament, however it's nothing overly special.

That being said I find plenty of meaning in my life, and god is not required for that. Therefore your statement is disproven.

You create the illusion of meaning in your life while living in the Matrix. Your delusion is necessary to avoid God at all costs. Humans have desperately worked to enhance that delusion in a desperate attempt to create meaning without God. You are a great example of such an attempt and I thank you for providing us such an example.

You have yet to prove how molecules create meaning of their existence and bonding with other molecules.

 

[MennoSota]

On the contrary, god is irrelevant to morality, even if he existed.

Why?

Because even if your god were real, he must have some reasons for considering some things good, and some things bad. Presumably god would have logical and rational reasons for reaching his conclusions.

If that is so, if we properly employ logic and rationality, we would also reach the same conclusions as your god.

Therefore, he's irrelevant. You can construct at the very least an identical moral system whether he existed or not.

That being said, we can do far better than the moral code that is presented in the bible... but that's a different argument.

God is Sovereign. He is not bound by your finite reasoning or logic. God makes His decisions and commands because...He is the Creator and thus...He can. You can whine all you want. You will always be a finite and miniscule being at the feet of God.

At best, you can attempt to imitate a moral code of your own, based off God's standard. It will be inferior and subject to constant revision and failure, but you can attempt it.

To arrogantly proclaim that you can do better is the claim of a fool and a jester. Enjoy your role.

 

[Dave Ellis]

You create the illusion of meaning in your life while living in the Matrix. Your delusion is necessary to avoid God at all costs. Humans have desperately worked to enhance that delusion in a desperate attempt to create meaning without God. You are a great example of such an attempt and I thank you for providing us such an example.

You have yet to prove how molecules create meaning of their existence and bonding with other molecules.

Meaning by definition is self imposed. Some things are meaningful to me, while you would be indifferent to those things. Likewise some things you find meaningful I would also be indifferent towards. This could be anything from hobbies, to friendships, to family, or whatever.

For example, you might have a long lasting friendship of 20 years with someone, and you find great meaning in that friendship. While your friendship with that person means little to me, as I've never even met you, or your friend. I'm happy for you that you have your friendship, but it doesn't really concern me.

However, your friendship would be just as meaningful to you whether you live in a universe with a god, or without a god. You'd appreciate all the moments just as well, and you'd mourn equally if your friendship came to an end for whatever reason.

The meaning we find in our lives is a conglomeration of all those things which we find meaningful. That's the only meaning that matters. I'm not even sure what it would mean to find meaning through some supernatural being. The concept is bizarre.

 

[Dave Ellis]

God is Sovereign. He is not bound by your finite reasoning or logic. God makes His decisions and commands because...He is the Creator and thus...He can. You can whine all you want. You will always be a finite and miniscule being at the feet of God.

At best, you can attempt to imitate a moral code of your own, based off God's standard. It will be inferior and subject to constant revision and failure, but you can attempt it.

To arrogantly proclaim that you can do better is the claim of a fool and a jester. Enjoy your role.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yes, that is one excellent way of looking at it.

I personally look at it as a doubly strong type of obedience, because I first chose to do what God says, and now I also see the wisdom in what God says.

Would you continue to do it even when you don't see the wisdom in it? Or does that not apply because you assume the wisdom is there because He said it?

 

[Paulos23]

Dave, people have discussed this with you time and time again. The only thing to say at this point is that your disbelief does not you right or Christians wrong.

Neither may be right, but at least Dave is trying to figure it out based on evidence.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Quoting a book is not evidence in and of itself. Can you show the reasons why we should accept what the book says?

Now, now... if it's evidence for him, that's enough... for him. No need to call him out on it until he tries to use it on us.

I don't begrudge anyone their fantasies until they try to enforce them.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Read the Bible to find meaning.

Already read it. Had meaning before I read it. Changed nothing.

Ecclesiastes is a great book, written for atheists and agnostics to ponder the meaning of life. Read it.

Already read it -- not bad, but I preferred the musical version.

Without God, life is meaningless.

And vice versa?

Neitsche understood this clearly. Why do you balk at the reality of your situation?

Because I'm not dependent on Nietzsche to define my reality for me. Why are you?

 

[MennoSota]

View attachment 175114View attachment 175115

You refuse to be intellectually honest with your own position. I attack the meaninglessness of your position.

You, personally, have meaning because God gives you meaning as His precious creation.

Do you see the difference? Do you grasp the fact that life sith out God is, in reality, meaningless. Be honest with yourself.

 

[MennoSota]

Now, now... if it's evidence for him, that's enough... for him. No need to call him out on it until he tries to use it on us.

I don't begrudge anyone their fantasies until they try to enforce them.

LOL, coming from your matrix, this is funny.

 

[MennoSota]

Already read it. Had meaning before I read it. Changed nothing.



Already read it -- not bad, but I preferred the musical version.

And vice versa?



Because I'm not dependent on Nietzsche to define my reality for me. Why are you?

LOL, your matrix will not change when you know nothing more than the illusional world you live in.
Denying reality on your part does not change God's reality, it only makes your comments false.