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Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
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" Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended." Most certainly this gives the impression that HE MUST ASCEND quickly.

It appears that Jesus was about to ascend, told Mary not to touch him, for He had not yet ascended;
THEN He ascended as John saw Him in Rev. 4 & 5, then returned to meet with the other ladies.

There is at least two possibilities: He disappeared (but was still around) in-between each appearance..
Or else just as He said, HE ascended to heaven, then came back down to meet with the other ladies, and with the two on the road. Did He ascend back to heaven during those 8 days? I think He did. You may think He just disappeared.


MORE BREAKING NEWS!

Lamad still thinks Jesus immediately ascended into heaven and returned to earth multiple times even after being shown this to be in error in scriptures in post#105.

Lamad,

Jesus ascended into heaven 10 days before Pentecost. From Passover to Pentecost is 50 days. That would make it 40 days Christ was in and on the earth after His crucifixion until He went to heaven. During those 40 days was when He spent time with all those people mentioned in the bible. He never, never, never, never went to heaven and came back to earth. A second coming is till future. Read the bible and learn the difference between His resurrection vs His ascension.

How long did Jesus stay on earth after his resurrection?

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-l...id-jesus-stay-on-earth-after-his-resurrection

Why did Jesus stay around for 40 days after He came back from the grave, instead of going immediately into heaven? This came up in our Bible class the other day and no one seemed to have an answer.

http://billygraham.org/answer/why-d...ave-instead-of-going-immediately-into-heaven/









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Abram's Awakening

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The rapture is explained like the days of Noah before the flood. For when Noah followed the instruction of the Lord to enter the Ark, the floods came and swept away the ungodly who refused to listen to the words of Lord; and accept instruction from the Almighty.This directly coincides with the Second Coming of Christ.
The rapture, seemingly, has two stages...

First, a spiritual gathering in accordance with the knowledge and understanding of the Word of God must take place. For the apostasy and the elongated spiritual exile are finally nearing their completion. The outcome of this "falling away" and the prophetic events that occurred and were ordained to "withold the Light of knowledge"- created devestations that had formed barriers within the minds of men. This period of time also signaled the spiritual famine that resulted in enslavements, increased lawlessness(sin), and deep spiritual blindness among mankind.

As He has said, "For my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."

These prophetic periods of time embodying apostasy and spiritual exile, are known to many as the Seven Trumpets...

And just before the sounding of the seventh, the Lord begins to unveil the hidden knowledge His mysterious prophecy to the remnant of His children. He does this through His Word and Spirit, as His revelation begins to unfold, and the message becomes crystal clear.
 
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iamlamad

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There are other interpretations of that day that say Mary did touch him or hugs him when she saw him and Jesus simply told her to.let go.because he was ascending ....

Why and how was his blood carried to heaven and for what purpose...is not his fulfillment of the law and death and resurrection enough ?....where is the mention of his blood being transported to heaven?

Salvation came through the shedding of his blood ie death for mankind not by placing blood on the mercy seat in heaven ....no.mention of that at all ....


Hebrew 9:12
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

This does not teach that Jesus carried his blood to heaven but it does teach that sacrifice ie law rituals did not cause Jesus to enter heaven but the shedding of his blood was he was able to enter as a man changed into the glory of God

..Not that we too must shed our blood ...nor the blood of lambs ...He is our sacrifice...once and for all

We know that the Old Covenant was only types and shadows of things to come. The tabernacle was to be made with very specific instructions, as if to copy the heavenly mercy seat. Again there were VERY particular instructions on how the blood was to be sprinkled on the altar of the earthly tabernacle for the covering of sins. It therefore is very possible that the blood of Jesus had to be sprinkled on the mercy seat in heaven. Hebrews hints at this but does not come right out and say it. Paul did say that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, our faith is in vain and we are still in our sins. But no matter, because I believe the words Jesus told Mary. He said, "I have not yet ascended...." I take this to mean His plan was to ascend immediately. I know most commentaries disagree on this point.

We also know that He appeared to people many times, but with days inbetween. Where was He between the times He was seen? My guess is in heaven. Others may guess otherwise. The bible does not say.
 
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Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
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As I already said, chapters 4 & 5. In this vision John saw the moment Jesus ascended to the throne room. That would be right after He told Mary not to touch him. The moment He arrived the Holy Spirit was sent down, This sets the timing around 32 or 33 AD.

:doh:

You just don't get it. Read post #121 at the top of the page.


Anyone can make any theory sound right if they pull verses out of context. The first seal is in the context of chapters 4 & 5. When we study these carefully, we see that John saw, in vision form, the very moment Jesus ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down. God did this to show TIMING. It was when Jesus got the scroll with the seals into His hands and began breaking them.

If you can find 2000 years hidden in any of these verses, PLEASE show us! They are not there. It is written to show us that the first seal was broken just as soon as Jesus ascended and got the scroll from the Father.

This is what is written in black and white to prove the first seal was broken about 32 AD.

Can you find ANY scriptural support for this seal still not broken?

Lamad, this same argument can be successfully used against your rebuttal.

PLEASE show us! Prove that John wrote the book of Revelations in 95 AD about 32 AD.









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iamlamad

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MORE BREAKING NEWS!

Lamad still thinks Jesus immediately ascended into heaven and returned to earth multiple times even after being shown this to be in error in scriptures in post#105.

Lamad,

Jesus ascended into heaven 10 days before Pentecost. From Passover to Pentecost is 50 days. That would make it 40 days Christ was in and on the earth after His crucifixion until He went to heaven. During those 40 days was when He spent time with all those people mentioned in the bible. He never, never, never, never went to heaven and came back to earth. A second coming is till future. Read the bible and learn the difference between His resurrection vs His ascension.

How long did Jesus stay on earth after his resurrection?

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-l...id-jesus-stay-on-earth-after-his-resurrection

Why did Jesus stay around for 40 days after He came back from the grave, instead of going immediately into heaven? This came up in our Bible class the other day and no one seemed to have an answer.

http://billygraham.org/answer/why-d...ave-instead-of-going-immediately-into-heaven/

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"He never, never, never, never went to heaven and came back to earth. A second coming is till future. Read the bible and learn the difference between His resurrection vs His ascension. "

You have a great imagination in thinking you proved me in error in post 105. You have only proved that you have a great opinion of what you write. When the bible is silent on something NO ONE can be dogmatic! Yet somehow you are. Imagine that! You cannot prove by scripture that He did not, and I cannot prove He did. What I can be dogmatic about is that Jesus SAID: "for I have not yet ascended...." giving us the idea that He WOULD immediately ascend.

Those words would really not make much sense if He was not to ascend for another many days. Did He have business to attend to in heaven? Certainly He did. I think He went immediately to heaven after He said that.
 
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Psalm3704

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"He never, never, never, never went to heaven and came back to earth. A second coming is till future. Read the bible and learn the difference between His resurrection vs His ascension. "

You have a great imagination in thinking you proved me in error in post 105. You have only proved that you have a great opinion of what you write. When the bible is silent on something NO ONE can be dogmatic! Yet somehow you are. Imagine that! You cannot prove by scripture that He did not, and I cannot prove He did. What I can be dogmatic about is that Jesus SAID: "for I have not yet ascended...." giving us the idea that He WOULD immediately ascend.

Those words would really not make much sense if He was not to ascend for another many days. Did He have business to attend to in heaven? Certainly He did. I think He went immediately to heaven after He said that.

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Lamad think Jesus returned many times after ascending to heaven. Multiple returns in the first century!

ROFL lamad, are you for real dude or are you just trying to be funny? And I thought it was only the old testament part of the bible you had problems learning. Wrong order of event too.

Here's the correct order. Read Acts 1:9-11:

John 20:1
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

John 20:16
Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

John 20:18
Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.

John 20:19
Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

In all of John 21, Jesus spends time with the disciples. Jesus finally ascends into heaven in Acts 1. Holy Spirit finally came in Acts 2.

Acts 1:9-11
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Acts 2:1-4
When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.






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Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
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WAKE UP and learn English!

New American Standard Bible
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

That's not what most bible translations say. Of the possible 30 plus translations below, you quoted the only one that made it appear as the church is the conqueror but all the other translations say the church is more than conquerors or the church overcomes. It's getting pathetic how you're continuously manipulating scriptures to fit your fallacy.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/8-37-compare.html







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Abram's Awakening

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Gentlemen... Consider the book of Job. Satan was allowed to test him. Even so those who commit sin, evil came upon them. We only have ourselves to blame. For how can one truly be healed if one does not know or understand the folly that leads him astray? These are testing grounds amongst trials of tribulation...


The rapture is explained like the days of Noah before the flood. For when Noah followed the instruction of the Lord to enter the Ark, the floods came and swept away the ungodly who refused to listen to the words of Lord; and accept instruction from the Almighty.This directly coincides with the Second Coming of Christ.
The rapture, seemingly, has two stages...

First, a spiritual gathering in accordance with the knowledge and understanding of the Word of God must take place. For the apostasy and the elongated spiritual exile are finally nearing their completion. The outcome of this "falling away" and the prophetic events that occurred and were ordained to "withold the Light of knowledge"- created devestations that had formed barriers within the minds of men. This period of time also signaled the spiritual famine that resulted in enslavements, increased lawlessness(sin), and deep spiritual blindness among mankind.

As He has said, "For my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."

These prophetic periods of time embodying apostasy and spiritual exile, are known to many as the Seven Trumpets...

And just before the sounding of the seventh, the Lord begins to unveil the hidden knowledge held within His Word; For His prophecies become clear as His Revelation begins to manifest to the remnant of His children. He does this through His Word and Spirit, as His revelation begins to unfold...

The second part of this rapture would entail a seperation or a schism. Once He opens our minds and breaks down the barriers to recieve the Logos- a healing, cleansing, and refinement must take place. Some people would call this process a "rebirth" or a "baptism".

This seperation consists of a divine intervention involving the Revelation of Christ and the Spirit of Prophecy among His remnant, calling for them from the ends of earth; Instructing them to come out from the wordly establishments and false religions-having been found as deceptive and false as the demonic influences they derive from-which are very many...

For the anxious longing of creation awaits eagerly for the revealing of the Sons of God...

The rapture is a gathering and a seperation in accordance with spiritual knowledge, prophetic utterance, and the second coming...


There are other interpretations of that day that say Mary did touch him or hugs him when she saw him and Jesus simply told her to.let go.because he was ascending ....

Why and how was his blood carried to heaven and for what purpose...is not his fulfillment of the law and death and resurrection enough ?....where is the mention of his blood being transported to heaven?

Salvation came through the shedding of his blood ie death for mankind not by placing blood on the mercy seat in heaven ....no.mention of that at all ....


Hebrew 9:12
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

This does not teach that Jesus carried his blood to heaven but it does teach that sacrifice ie law rituals did not cause Jesus to enter heaven but the shedding of his blood was he was able to enter as a man changed into the glory of God

..Not that we too must shed our blood ...nor the blood of lambs ...He is our sacrifice...once and for all
 
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Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
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It also makes PERFECT SENSE: God wished to introduce John to the 7 seals, but had to start with the book in the Father's hand and the search for one worthy. That was HISTORY. May I suggest you go back and study chapters 4 and 5 until you can correctly answer WHY Jesus was not at first seen at the Father's right hand? Then WHY "no man was found" causing John to weep? Then WHY the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room in chapter 4 in this vision.

I will tell you the exact words God spoke to me about these questions: "until you can answer these questions correctly you will NEVER understand this part of John's vision."

No it is NOT. The holy spirit given out at Pentecost to all believers is not the spirit mentioned in Revelation 4:2 or 4:5. Just because the holy spirit went out at Pentecost, it doesn't mean Christ did too returning to earth.

And just because you heard voices in your head, it does not mean it's from God. You still haven't learned how to test the spirit to know it's not from a deceptive spirit.

Revelation 4:2
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

Revelation 4:5
And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.


So much
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Psalm3704

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John then saw a vision. A vision can be past, present or future, or all of the above. We determine that this was a vision of the past (history to John in 95 AD) because it shows a time before Jesus rose and then the moment He ascended into heaven. Unless one pulls the first seal out of its context, AD 32 IS the context.

What part of AFTER do you still not get? Here's the verse again. The vision is for the future, not the past. How many times must we keep doing this?

Revelation 4:1 (KJV) After this I looked , and, behold , a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said , Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter .











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iamlamad

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That's not what most bible translations say. Of the possible 30 plus translations below, you quoted the only one that made it appear as the church is the conqueror but all the other translations say the church is more than conquerors or the church overcomes. It's getting pathetic how you're continuously manipulating scriptures to fit your fallacy.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/8-37-compare.html
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YOu should go back to school and study English again: "MORE than conquering" means "we overwhelmingly conquer."

You are nit picking just because you don't like to be proven wrong. Besides, as I have shown you numerous times, the GREEK behind "conquering and to conquer" was translated far more times as OVERCOMING.

Just get over it: the first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended into heaven, as shown in Rev. 5. You are 2000 years off in your false theory. It is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

Matthew Henry Commentary:
a time of peace, or the early progress of the Christian religion, seems to be intended; its going forth in purity, at the time when its heavenly Founder sent his apostles to teach all nations,

Pulpit Commentary:
"White is always typical in the Revelation of heavenly things"
"The horse, throughout the Old Testament, is emblematic of war."
"it seems best to interpret this vision as a symbolic representation of the abstract idea of the Church as a victorious body"
"Wordsworth, after St. Augustine, expounds the first seal as the advent of Christ and the Gospel, and the following ones as depicting subsequent troubles of the Church, which are specified."
"Only of Christ and his kingdom can it be said that it is to conquer. All earthly empires are more or less temporary in character; only of Christ's kingdom shall there be no end. A strife there must be between the powers of earth and the powers of heaven; the gospel did not inaugurate a reign of earthly peace, but the end is not doubtful; Christ and his Church came forth conquering, and that they may conquer finally, whatever earthly trials may intervene. "

Gill's Commentary:
And I saw, and behold a white horse,.... Representing the ministration of the Gospel in the times of the apostles
"and he went forth, conquering and to conquer; in the ministration of the Gospel, which went forth, as did all the first ministers of it, from Jerusalem, to the several parts of the world;"

Adam Clarke Commentary:
Verse 2. A white horse
Supposed to represent the Gospel system, and pointing out its excellence, swiftness, and purity.

He that sat on him
Supposed to represent Jesus Christ.

A bow
The preaching of the Gospel, darting conviction into the hearts of sinners.

A crown
The emblem of the kingdom which Christ is to establish on earth.

Conquering, and to conquer.
Overcoming and confounding the Jews first, and then the Gentiles; spreading more and more the doctrine and influence of the cross over the face of the earth.

Coffman Commentaries:
  1. "The white horse ..." The color here is significant, for its contrasts with the colors of the other horses; and nowhere in Revelation is white used otherwise than as a symbol of purity, holiness, glory, etc. "In the book of Revelation, white is never used of anything evil." F10 The white throne upon which God sits is an example.



  2. The choice of a "horse" in this symbolism means "war." It is a righteous war, for the horse was white, indicating truth and righteousness. "This war began when Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, and his disciples began to go everywhere at his command." F11


  3. The rider wore a crown which was "given to him," not a crown extorted through the atrocities of war, but a gift of God. A "crown" in the Scriptural sense upon the head of some profane conqueror is impossible to believe. Only Christ fits the picture.


  4. The rider on this white horse went forth "conquering and to conquer," expressions used extensively elsewhere in the New Testament of Christ. "We feel sure that had you never heard another interpretation you would at once have said, `This is the Conquering Christ.'" F12


  5. The conqueror in Rev. 19:11 is also crowned and rides upon a white horse; but he cannot be mistaken. His name is given: "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." Can this conqueror be any other? As Roberson said, "All efforts to separate the white horse of this vision from that of Rev. 19:11 are futile." F13

  1. Guzik commentary:
    But this is a satanic dictator who imitates Jesus.

    End of story: your theory is bogus. Only one commentary agrees. The overwhelming majority agree with me or I with them.




 
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iamlamad

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What part of AFTER do you still not get? Here's the verse again. The vision is for the future, not the past. How many times must we keep doing this?

Revelation 4:1 (KJV) After this I looked , and, behold , a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said , Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter .
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The more you write, the more you show that you don't know and can't comprehend English.

You think this verse says:
Come up hither, and I will shew thee ONLY things which must be hereafter .

John did not write that. You imagine that.

Question, are the trumpets and vials future events - even to us today?

Then God DID SHOW JOHN THINGS that must be HEREAFTER, exactly as He said.

This is getting tiring: as usual, you THINK you know, when in fact, you DON'T.
 
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dfw69

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Did you miss Chapter 5:6 ?
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Please take note that this "lamb having been slain" JUST ARRIVED: He was not there an instant before.

You missed something: "Write the things which thou hast seen..." This is past tense. Anyway, after it was done, but before John began to write, everything in the vision was a "hast seen."


I know many people think everything from 4:1 on must be future. I challenge you to find "ONLY" in this verse:

Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
There is no "only" things which must be hereafter...

If God had shown John two or three things that were "hereafter" and finished His book with recipes of mana, this verse would still be true.

I agree, around 95 AD. So things about Jesus BIRTH would be history to John. See Rev. 12:1-5 These verses are about Jesus BIRTH. Remember, there is no "ONLY".

No, you just MISSED the hint!
"...it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season..."

There is no such wording about time in the first 4 seals. We find this only at the 5th seal. And it IS a hint of a long wait. We can see it as a long wait, but they could not....they had no idea the church age would go for 2000 years. By the way, 2000 years IS "a little season" to God.
They wanted to know when their murders would be judged. Looking back over the church age, we understand it as "the age of grace," where judgment has to wait. We begin to see judgment beginning at the 6th seal.


On the other hand, if these were 70th week martyrs as many think, they would KNOW they had only 7 years to wait, and would not have even asked. Consider Stephen who was one of the first martyrs: he would have no idea how long the church age would be. I can easily imagine those early martyrs wondering how long. I cannot imagine the first martyr of the 70th week wondering. They would already know. And remember, it was "the last days" when Jesus was teaching.

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Keep in mind that John was VERY chronological in this book. He will not get to the "Day of the Lord" until the 6th seal and not get to the 70th week until the 7th seal. And finally, will not get to the days of great tribulation (where millions will die as martyrs) until chapter 15. These seen under the altar at the 5th seal are church age martyrs simply because that is where John is at this time in his narrative.




I hesitate to answer, because this is very personal and many will just make fun of it. The truth is, you are missing far more than you realize.

DId you notice, the Beast was not introduced to John until chapter 13, and the dragon not until chapter 12? Anyone can make any verse say almost anything by pulling it out of context. We MUST remember, the first seal has a CONTEXT: it is the vision of the throne room.

I bugged God about this vision A LOT. I wanted to know why we needed to know that John wept, and why he wept much. Is that essential information? I did not see it as such! it seemed nonsensical almost. Why did God include it? I wanted to know, so I kept bugging God about it. I learned long ago, if someone is persistent and hour after hour, day after day bugs God about something, He will ALWAYS answer. And He answered me. First He said, "it shows timing." I searched and meditated and read this passage maybe a hundred times: I could see timing NOWHERE - so I kept bugging Him. Then HE said "it also shows the movement of time." Again I could not see the movement of time either, so I kept right on bugging Him.

Finally He showed mercy to my slow mind, and said: I am going to ask you three questions about this vision of the throne room: until you can answer them correctly you will NEVER understand this vision. (I heard His voice and His words) So He proceeded to ask me three questions.

1. Why was I not seen at the right hand of the Father in the first part of this vision? There are many verses that say I went to be at the right hand of the Father. (Stephen saw him there about 60 years previous.)

2. Why was the Holy Spirit seen IN the throne room, when I said that I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

3. Why was "no man found" in the search for one worthy to open the seals? if you read ahead, you see that I was found worthy, but here "no man was found." John wrote that the search ended in failure, and that is why he wept much.

I could not answer His three questions after weeks of meditating, and one day He spoke again and said, "go study chapter 12." As soon as I got my bible turned to chapter 12, He summarized that chapter to me: "This was me introducing John to the dragon..." Among other things He said about that chapter, He said, "count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." If I remember right, I counted 32 times. During His explanation, He mentioned that the first five verses of chapter 12 were a "history lesson" to John, speaking of the time of His birth. Finally, after I understand the first five verses was about His birth, He said, "now you can go back to chapters 4 & 5."

Suddenly all was different! I had "history lesson" in the back of my mind, and suddenly I had the answer to all three questions! John was looking into the throne room of the past, looking back to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. Why was HE not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? Very simple, He was still on earth or under the earth. Why was the Holy Spirit still there? Very simple; Jesus had not yet ascended. Why was "no man found?" Very simple: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to be found as the Redeemer.

Remember the "movement of time?" Suddenly John is told that someone had been found. We can understand by this, as soon as one search finished, another was started, but John did not watch this second search, for he was weeping much. But as soon as John was told this, SUDDENLY someone new entered the throne room - someone who had not been there in chapter 4: It was the "lamb having been slain." You see, John got to see the very moment Jesus first ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. If you will notice, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down.

ALL this is the context of the first seal - and was written to show us the TIMING of the first seal. It was when Jesus ascended into heaven, about 32 AD.

This is a very personal story. Many will simply not believe it, because God has never spoken to them. However, it is written, "my sheep here my voice." It is NOT unusual to hear His voice, it is unusual NOT to hear His voice. God TAUGHT this vision to me, line upon line, and I got it. I am as sure of this as Paul was about His gospel. Both came through revelation.

You make interesting arguments ...Not convince yet though

The first seal opens and the gospel conquering

So when was the rest of the seals opened?...right away after the first seal ? That all wars famine and plagues throughout history are God's doing ?
 
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Abram's Awakening

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The seals, trumpets, and bowls of wrath all take place between The Pentecost and The Second Coming of Christ. They are all in accordance with one another as they explain prophetic events that take place in direct correlation with a preordained Apostasy.

And as these events unfold, we find a chain of spiritual attacks on the children of God as their kingdom and their inheritance has been robbed from them by those in whom murdered their King...

And so the kingdom was taken by force and handed over to be trampled on by the adversary...

The rider on the white horse who had a bow and was given a crown-conquering and to conquer... This is represented as Simon Magus the sorcerer who took the opportuniy to defile the teachings of Christ with gnosticism and egyptian mysticism. He traveled to Rome displaying wonders and pretending to be somebody great. After the destruction of the early church and death of all the Apostles and Christian Martyrs, Simon took full advantage of establishing a powerful, new found establishment with the inheritance he falsely claimed as his own, of which he had no part or portion in... This event gave birth and rise to the Catholic Church, whose roots are grounded in gnosticism. And Simon Magus has been mistaken for Simon Peter to this day. Simon Peter never went to Rome(see:The Apology of Justin Martyr).

1st Trumpet: Gnosticism

2nd Trumpet: The rise of the Catholic Church

3rd Trumpet: Dark Ages

4th Trumpet: Age of Kings and Science

5th Trumpet: Age of Enlightenment

6th Trumpet: Modern Times where apostasy and spiritual exile progresses to the point of establishing Lucifers kingdom with the completion of Secular Humanism.

7th Trumpet: Spiritual awakening, cleansing, baptism, and Second Coming of Christ...

The seals, trumpets, and bowls are prophetic events that lead mankind progressively further from the Lord in apostasy, famine, and spiritual exile...
 
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dfw69

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Yes I agree, it's overwhelming the number of scholars and Christian believe the 1st seal is the antichrist, a few think it's Christ but no one thinks it's the church nor was it opened in 32 AD....well maybe one lone ranger.









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No I have heard this from others on this forum that we are awaiting the 6 seal so it's becoming popular for whatever it's worth.....
 
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dfw69

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Did you miss Chapter 5:6 ?
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Please take note that this "lamb having been slain" JUST ARRIVED: He was not there an instant before.

Another assumption Lamad...He could have been slain past tense like 2000 years ago...no reference of time here...I see where you getting that but it's not concrete ...it says he had been slain past tense but when is not stated

it says had been slain ...not had been slain yesterday then it would stand as a newly arrival


You missed something: "Write the things which thou hast seen..." This is past tense. Anyway, after it was done, but before John began to write, everything in the vision was a "hast seen."


Yes he has just seen a vision of jesus as god.....my point though was he would see the hereafter in heaven...implying the future



I know many people think everything from 4:1 on must be future. I challenge you to find "ONLY" in this verse:
Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
There is no "only" things which must be hereafter...

If God had shown John two or three things that were "hereafter" and finished His book with recipes of mana, this verse would still be true.


yes but because only is not stated does not mean all things were not only future events...it can be assume that hereafter could in itself refer to only future events...yes?


I agree, around 95 AD. So things about Jesus BIRTH would be history to John. See Rev. 12:1-5 These verses are about Jesus BIRTH. Remember, there is no "ONLY".

There is no history lesson in rev 12...the manchild is not jesus....the manchild is a future event ...they are 144000 select jewish people who will be caught up to heaven and not die....jesus was not the manchild...satan killed jesus ...jesus was resurrected not caught up...jesus assended to heaven of his own power....not caught up as in carried up by angels.....enoch and elijah were caught up....jesus was not


No, you just MISSED the hint!
"...it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season..."

There is no such wording about time in the first 4 seals. We find this only at the 5th seal. And it IS a hint of a long wait. We can see it as a long wait, but they could not....they had no idea the church age would go for 2000 years. By the way, 2000 years IS "a little season" to God.
They wanted to know when their murders would be judged. Looking back over the church age, we understand it as "the age of grace," where judgment has to wait. We begin to see judgment beginning at the 6th seal.


On the other hand, if these were 70th week martyrs as many think, they would KNOW they had only 7 years to wait, and would not have even asked. Consider Stephen who was one of the first martyrs: he would have no idea how long the church age would be. I can easily imagine those early martyrs wondering how long. I cannot imagine the first martyr of the 70th week wondering. They would already know. And remember, it was "the last days" when Jesus was teaching.


Good point ...but not concrete...but think of this senario.... these future martyrs may not know exaclly how long ...because these had not known the prophetic teaches we are so custom to read without hinderance or persecution.....that these people will not know the gospel or have access to new testament scriptures because the new testament will have been put down by the false messiah and false messiahnic age yet to come.....but gods spirit is poured out during the days of darkness and many will see the light again...

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Keep in mind that John was VERY chronological in this book. He will not get to the "Day of the Lord" until the 6th seal and not get to the 70th week until the 7th seal. And finally, will not get to the days of great tribulation (where millions will die as martyrs) until chapter 15. These seen under the altar at the 5th seal are church age martyrs simply because that is where John is at this time in his narrative.


Yes chronological...but about future things imo



I hesitate to answer, because this is very personal and many will just make fun of it. The truth is, you are missing far more than you realize.

yes im sorry people can be so insensitive to ones beliefs....i will not make fun of you ...i will question though...i love prophecy teachings ever since i was a child ...my stepdad and mom worried that i wanted to have prophetic conversations so much as a child...my dad told me about nostadamus and bible prophecy and i was intrigued from then on...it lead me to know jesus and salvation


DId you notice, the Beast was not introduced to John until chapter 13, and the dragon not until chapter 12? Anyone can make any verse say almost anything by pulling it out of context. We MUST remember, the first seal has a CONTEXT: it is the vision of the throne room.

I bugged God about this vision A LOT. I wanted to know why we needed to know that John wept, and why he wept much. Is that essential information? I did not see it as such! it seemed nonsensical almost. Why did God include it? I wanted to know, so I kept bugging God about it. I learned long ago, if someone is persistent and hour after hour, day after day bugs God about something, He will ALWAYS answer. And He answered me. First He said, "it shows timing." I searched and meditated and read this passage maybe a hundred times: I could see timing NOWHERE - so I kept bugging Him. Then HE said "it also shows the movement of time." Again I could not see the movement of time either, so I kept right on bugging Him.

Finally He showed mercy to my slow mind, and said: I am going to ask you three questions about this vision of the throne room: until you can answer them correctly you will NEVER understand this vision. (I heard His voice and His words) So He proceeded to ask me three questions.

1. Why was I not seen at the right hand of the Father in the first part of this vision? There are many verses that say I went to be at the right hand of the Father. (Stephen saw him there about 60 years previous.)

2. Why was the Holy Spirit seen IN the throne room, when I said that I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

3. Why was "no man found" in the search for one worthy to open the seals? if you read ahead, you see that I was found worthy, but here "no man was found." John wrote that the search ended in failure, and that

I could not answer His three questions after weeks of meditating, and one day He spoke again and said, "go study chapter 12." As soon as I got my bible turned to chapter 12, He summarized that chapter to me: "This was me introducing John to the dragon..." Among other things He said about that chapter, He said, "count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." If I remember right, I counted 32 times. During His explanation, He mentioned that the first five verses of chapter 12 were a "history lesson" to John, speaking of the time of His birth. Finally, after I understand the first five verses was about His birth, He said, "now you can go back to chapters 4 & 5."

Suddenly all was different! I had "history lesson" in the back of my mind, and suddenly I had the answer to all three questions! John was looking into the throne room of the past, looking back to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. Why was HE not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? Very simple, He was still on earth or under the earth. Why was the Holy Spirit still there? Very simple; Jesus had not yet ascended. Why was "no man found?" Very simple: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to be found as the Redeemer.

Remember the "movement of time?" Suddenly John is told that someone had been found. We can understand by this, as soon as one search finished, another was started, but John did not watch this second search, for he was weeping much. But as soon as John was told this, SUDDENLY someone new entered the throne room - someone who had not been there in chapter 4: It was the "lamb having been slain." You see, John got to see the very moment Jesus first ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. If you will notice, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down.

ALL this is the context of the first seal - and was written to show us the TIMING of the first seal. It was when Jesus ascended into heaven, about 32 AD.

This is a very personal story. Many will simply not believe it, because God has never spoken to them. However, it is written, "my sheep here my voice." It is NOT unusual to hear His voice, it is unusual NOT to hear His voice. God TAUGHT this vision to me, line upon line, and I got it. I am as sure of this as Paul was about His gospel. Both came through revelation.

I have to sift this a bid...
 
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Abram's Awakening

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I dont think the first seal is the antichrist. I think its the first deception of the false Christ. The beginning of the false church establishing its place in the world following the path of Nimrod and Semiramis and taking Babylons place. The birth of the Mother of all Harlots...
 
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dfw69

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I dont think the first seal is the antichrist. I think its the first deception of the false Christ. The beginning of the false church establishing its place in the world following the path of Nimrod and Semiramis and taking Babylons place. The birth of the Mother of all Harlots...

This false church will be released by Jesus?

As well as wars famines and plagues and death and martyrs?

Jesus is opening the seals which brings bad things why?

I believe he is the final antichrist and Assyrian who is released to punish those who have fallen away into believing in the false messianic age ....if Israel believes they are in the messianic age then wars famines and plagues should not happen....but these are signs to convince something is amiss

Perhaps a church and a specific doctrine will unite them in the last days under the antichrist ...antichrist can't do it alone

Or are you saying the false messiah will unite Israel ....and the final antichrist rises after him ?....the first false messiah will become his prophet and the beast will rise after him?
 
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