Cessationism question

Gregory Thompson

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It's a funny thing. The phenomena that is being discussed requires faith to make it happen . so those who don't believe it can happen won't see it . kind of like the home town of Jesus back in his day ;)
 
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It's a funny thing. The phenomena that is being discussed requires faith to make it happen . so those who don't believe it can happen won't see it . kind of like the home town of Jesus back in his day ;)

According to who?

Tongues was for sign for those outside the church, and tongues was never to be uttered in the church without an interpreter.

Tongues was an empowerment to reach and minister to those that didn't speak Aramaic or Greek.

In Acts 2, the Jews were of multinational origins and tongues.
 
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It's a funny thing. The phenomena that is being discussed requires faith to make it happen . so those who don't believe it can happen won't see it . kind of like the home town of Jesus back in his day ;)

See this is the very thing I commented upon! You can't speak in tongues because you don't have the faith to speak in tongues.This is the very same childish ego the Corinthians suffered from.

"Now, follow us to the pastor's office for a special session in tutoring on tongues..."
 
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If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1 Corinthians 14:23
 
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How did you miss this part of Acts 2?

The Coming of the Holy Spirit
When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”


1 Corinthians 14:1-33

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.


Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.


Orderly Worship

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
As my post addressed the very core of Acts 2 particularly as it relates to how the Holy Spirit spoke through the 120 in words of praise to the Father, then what’s your point? It’s of no real value when someone replies to a post using a copious amount of multi-coloured Scripture without any dialogue.
 
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I am a preterist, and offered plenty of examples to support my view in my first post in this thread.
How this is supposed to apply to Acts 2 is something that I will never understand, even though I can agree with partial preterism, the full blown version is way too extreme for me.

The Charismatic movement just speaks gibberish and do not edify their church . . .
Undoubtedly Angelic tongues (1Cor 13:1) can certainly seem strange to the uninitiated where even Paul admonishes the Corinthians (and many churches of our day) for allowing the entire congregation to both speak and sing in tongues all at once during their (our) meetings, where Paul reminds them that if some unbelievers or cessationists come into their meetings will they not say (1Cor 14:23) "that you are out of your mind?

. . .and they suffer from the same ego as the Corinthians did in that they elevate tongues above all the other gifts and it is not even the greatest of the gifts.
Even though this type of remark is frequently encountered in commentaries on First Corinthians, where even some Pentecostal scholars will follow this line, it is something that eludes me as Paul does not even hint at this being the case. The Corinthians were certainly justified with recognising that the two Operations of the Spirit, being tongues and prophecy, that they were rightfully eschatological proclamations which speak of the future Kingdom of God; but this has absolutely nothing with any supposed elevation of tongues above the other eight Operations of the Spirit found in 1 Cor 12:7-11. I can understand this confusion coming from within the cessationist worldview but I am surprised that there are still some Pentecostal scholars who have not ditched this old cessationist wives-tale.

Some of these charismatic churches treat those that do not speak in tongues as second rate citizens of the Kingdom, forcing them to produce this "manifestation", they even been known to school the unlearned how to speak in tongues, ahem, help them along in a private session by tutoring them in tongue speaking.
For those who do not properly understand the “things of the Spirit”, where they have either been unaware that they can pray in the Spirit (tongues), or where maybe for some philosophical reasons they have chosen not to do so, then in the end it all falls down to “the have-nots decrying what the haves have” which is a human malady probably shared by us all. The same old argument is often heard by liberal congregational members who attack their fellow members for embracing Christ as Saviour, it goes on and on.

I agree that there are those who tend to be a bit overly keen with encouraging some to speak in tongues, or at least that this shows with their methodologies, but if we were to take a look at any aspect of the Christian walk we will always find those who go a bit over the top when it comes to presenting various aspects of the Word.
 
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According to who?

Tongues was for sign for those outside the church, and tongues was never to be uttered in the church without an interpreter.

Tongues was an empowerment to reach and minister to those that didn't speak Aramaic or Greek.

In Acts 2, the Jews were of multinational origins and tongues.
As for tongues "being a sign to those outside the church", Paul was very VERY clear in 1Cor 14 that when the Spirit speaks through us in tongues, that no man could ever understand what he was saying to the Father, so when an unbeliever or cessationist encounters this operation of the Spirit without appropriate interpretation, then it will only serve to harden them to the Gospel. As for its supposed "sign value" to the unsaved, it will always serve to be a negative sign of judgement and confusion to those who are spiritually discerned.

As I said previously, there is no suggestion from within the Scriptures that tongues was ever (or could ever) be used to reach those who were unsaved - this is really nothing more than a very tired old cessationist wives-tale that needs to be put to rest.

Edit: Spelling
 
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If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1 Corinthians 14:23
And how does this relate to the price of fish in Galilea?
 
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See this is the very thing I commented upon! You can't speak in tongues because you don't have the faith to speak in tongues.This is the very same childish ego the Corinthians suffered from.

"Now, follow us to the pastor's office for a special session in tutoring on tongues..."
It seems that you have missed the point where tongues is not the issue but with the inability of some to apply faith to the overall testimony of God's Word. If the Spirit is an offense to some then our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues) will be akin to a red flag to a bull.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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According to who?

Tongues was for sign for those outside the church, and tongues was never to be uttered in the church without an interpreter.

Tongues was an empowerment to reach and minister to those that didn't speak Aramaic or Greek.

In Acts 2, the Jews were of multinational origins and tongues.

There was the wonder of tongues in which acted like a universal translator people only heard their own language.

There was also a gift of tongues in which people would speak in some other language that unbelievers would understand and it would be considered miraculous so they would believe .

There was also a teaching that resonated best with me in that one who's tongue did not have an interpreter is that they should pray so that they could interpret what it was because the non-translatable tongues were speaking profound mysteries in that being able to translate your tongue was considered as edifying as the gift of prophecy .. though not the same.

See this is the very thing I commented upon! You can't speak in tongues because you don't have the faith to speak in tongues.This is the very same childish ego the Corinthians suffered from.

"Now, follow us to the pastor's office for a special session in tutoring on tongues..."

But I was speaking of miracles and healing, tongues does not require faith to see happen as it was originally a sign for those who didn't believe .. which is why Paul instructed to pray to translate your tongue so the whole body might be edified.
 
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There was also a gift of tongues in which people would speak in some other language that unbelievers would understand and it would be considered miraculous so they would believe .
Michael, the problem with this particular perspective is that we do not have any Biblical evidence for tongues being used in this manner. Even on the Day of Pentecost where the unregenerated Jews were able to understand hear what the Holy Spirit was saying through the 120 to the Father, as the Holy Spirit did not provide an evangelistic message to the nearby Jews but instead where he was offering praises to God, then we have no evidence of tongues being used as a missionary-evangelistic tool.

In 1 Cor 14 Paul goes to some length with explaining that tongues (praying and praisign God in the Spirit) is always directed toward God and not man, which is what we see occurring on the Day of Pentecost where the Spirit's words were being directed to the Father.
 
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Michael, the problem with this particular perspective is that we do not have any Biblical evidence for tongues being used in this manner. Even on the Day of Pentecost where the unregenerated Jews were able to understand hear what the Holy Spirit was saying through the 120 to the Father, as the Holy Spirit did not provide an evangelistic message to the nearby Jews but instead where he was offering praises to God, then we have no evidence of tongues being used as a missionary-evangelistic tool.

In 1 Cor 14 Paul goes to some length with explaining that tongues (praying and praisign God in the Spirit) is always directed toward God and not man, which is what we see occurring on the Day of Pentecost where the Spirit's words were being directed to the Father.

That's okay, tongues was one of my first gifts, but it matured into so many more things, I hardly speak as a child anymore in that sense.

my manifestation was "profound mysteries in the spirit" which I learned to translate through the bible and prayer, which I then applied inwardly.
 
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Tongues were a sign for the unbelievers.

Tongues was for edification of the church requiring an interpreter.

Tongues was a free gift.

Tongues was never a universal gift amongst the church, not every member spoke in tongues but others had greater gifts than tongues.
 
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But I was speaking of miracles and healing, tongues does not require faith to see happen as it was originally a sign for those who didn't believe .. which is why Paul instructed to pray to translate your tongue so the whole body might be edified.

Originally? Where in the Bible does it say this?
 
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Cessationism is kind of like the new testament version of the Saducees, the good news is Jesus' return must be close.

Tongues were never universal within the Church. Not every first century Christian spoke in tongues, but some had greater gifts of the Spirit.

The problem is there is a notion rampant in the charismatic movement that believes tongues equates greater spiritual maturity.

The exact same reason Paul chided the Corinthians for.
 
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Tongues were a sign for the unbelievers.
As I’ve said on a number of occasions, as uninterpreted tongues will always be a negative sign to the unbeliever (and cessationist), then what is your point?

Tongues was for edification of the church requiring an interpreter.
No, tongues was never intended to edify the congregation which is Pauls emphasis throughout 1 Cor 14. Paul addresses this in 14:2,3 where he says that tongues is always directed toward God, whereas prophecy (which is always given in the language of the local congregation) is intended to edify the congregation; it could be that you may have accidentally confused the two.

In 1Cor 14:4,5 Paul certainly speaks of edification but this 'edification' only means that the congregation has been edified through the interpretation of what was being said to the Father; the edification that Paul is speaking about has nothing to do with teaching, exhortation or prophecy.

Tongues was a free gift.
The term "gift(s)" or "spiritual gift(s)" is a bit of a misnomer as Paul does not actually use these terms; though 'charis' could possibly be deemed to be 'gift', as it is a free grace, but as 'gift' implies something that is given from one to another, then our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues), is not a thing given by the Spirit, but something that is outworked through us by the Holy Spirit as he prays to the Father on our behalf.

Tongues was never a universal gift amongst the church, not every member spoke in tongues but others had greater gifts than tongues.
In the first Christian message which was Peters in Acts 2, he tells us that what the crowd observed (2:11) was for all time, which included tongues; Paul also encourages all Believers to pray in the Spirit (tongues) in 1 Cor 14 along with Eph 6:28 and Jude 20 which means that we are left with no other option where we are compelled to acknowledge that the Eschatological ability to praise God in Angelic tongues through the Holy Spirit will remain until the Parousia.

The importance with both praying in the Spirit (tongues) and prophecy, is that these are two vital proclamation abilities that the Holy Spirit works through us as creation (and we) await the coming Kingdom of God.
 
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The problem is there is a notion rampant in the charismatic movement that believes tongues equates greater spiritual maturity.

The exact same reason Paul chided the Corinthians for.
Having been in Pentecost now for 40 years, I am more than aware that Pentecostals and charismatics do not view tongues in this way; though I will agree that it is certainly an indicator of ones spiritual cognisance but not so much with our spirituality. It could be said that those who choose to pray in the Spirit (tongues), that we are probably more obedient to both the leading of the Holy Spirit and to the Word of God than with those who don't.

As many new Christians can speak and praise God in tongues from the very moment of their conversion-initiation then they have hardly had any time to develop their maturity in the Lord.
 
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Cessationism is kind of like the new testament version of the Saducees, the good news is Jesus' return must be close.
I like Prof. Jon Ruthven's comment from a few years back, where he defined cessationism as "another system of unbelief"; though I would apply this more to those who are hard-core cessationists than with the quasi-cessationists, who may only be this way because they have been raised in a congregation which either lacks a solid grounding in the Word or who may be resistant to the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit.
 
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As I’ve said on a number of occasions, as uninterpreted tongues will always be a negative sign to the unbeliever (and cessationist), then what is your point?

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Corinthians 14:22


No, tongues was never intended to edify the congregation which is Pauls emphasis throughout 1 Cor 14. Paul addresses this in 14:2,3 where he says that tongues is always directed toward God, whereas prophecy (which is always given in the language of the local congregation) is intended to edify the congregation; it could be that you may have accidentally confused the two.

In 1Cor 14:4,5 Paul certainly speaks of edification but this 'edification' only means that the congregation has been edified through the interpretation of what was being said to the Father; the edification that Paul is speaking about has nothing to do with teaching, exhortation or prophecy.

Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:6-19, 26


The term "gift(s)" or "spiritual gift(s)" is a bit of a misnomer as Paul does not actually use these terms; though 'charis' could possibly be deemed to be 'gift', as it is a free grace, but as 'gift' implies something that is given from one to another, then our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues), is not a thing given by the Spirit, but something that is outworked through us by the Holy Spirit as he prays to the Father on our behalf.


In the first Christian message which was Peters in Acts 2, he tells us that what the crowd observed (2:11) was for all time, which included tongues; Paul also encourages all Believers to pray in the Spirit (tongues) in 1 Cor 14 along with Eph 6:28 and Jude 20 which means that we are left with no other option where we are compelled to acknowledge that the Eschatological ability to praise God in Angelic tongues through the Holy Spirit will remain until the Parousia.

The importance with both praying in the Spirit (tongues) and prophecy, is that these are two vital proclamation abilities that the Holy Spirit works through us as creation (and we) await the coming Kingdom of God.

The Parousia (the Presence) happened in A.D. 70.

I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men. Micah 2:12

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. Joel 2:28-32

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:16-21

Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Micah 3:6

Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest. Micah 3:12

According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things. Micah 7:15


All visions, prophecies, dreams, would cease upon the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, the great and terrible day of the Lord according to the days (40 years) of Israel coming out of the land of Egypt.
 
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