Pope Francis on Gay "marriage"

[RDKirk]

Instead, it is conservatives who stand against the institution of polygamy. which is a throwback to the times of the neanderthal.
Instead, they leave the fighting against the misogyny of polygamy to conservatives, whom they instinctively know have no use for such versions of marriage either.

So...are orthodox Muslims who practice polygamy (where legal) conservative or liberal?

 

[SolomonVII]

So...are orthodox Muslims who practice polygamy (where legal) conservative or liberal?

Conservative and liberal are relative terms. The fact that they are often interchangeable with right and left demonstrates this. They normally are used to define a continuum within the same society.
I don't think it translates well transpose the definitions used in one system to explain the phenomena in a completely different system.
Polygamy is a misogynist system nevertheless in that the worth of the man is up to four times the worth of the woman. It reduces women to chattel in the eyes of men, suitable for breeding purposes and the like, but anything like true intimacy is rare without the devotion that becomes possible through monogamy. Loyalty and fidelity are not the values of a polygamous system, and men in such systems are more likely to pay for the services of prostitutes as well.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

In the Old Testament, God specifically says that the King of Israel should not multiply his wives. So what does King Solomon do? He multiplies his wives, and God curses Solomon's kingdom because of it. Every example of polygamy in the Old Testament shows the bad that comes from it. When Jacob took two wives, one of them, Rachel, was loved and the other one, Leah, was unloved. And it says that God basically felt sorry for Leah. That's why God gave her children first. But then Rachel felt sad because she couldn't have children and Leah was rubbing it in. So God let Rachel conceive. And it became a competition between the two. Then Jacob favored his sons who were born from Rachel because they were born from the woman that he loved. And then Joseph was sold into slavery by his half-brothers because they were jealous of the favoritism.

 

[SolomonVII]

In the Old Testament, God specifically says that the King of Israel should not multiply his wives. So what does King Solomon do? He multiplies his wives, and God curses Solomon's kingdom because of it. Every example of polygamy in the Old Testament shows the bad that comes from it. When Jacob took two wives, one of them, Rachel, was loved and the other one, Leah, was unloved. And it says that God basically felt sorry for Leah. That's why God gave her children first. But then Rachel felt sad because she couldn't have children and Leah was rubbing it in. So God let Rachel conceive. And it became a competition between the two. Then Jacob favored his sons who were born from Rachel because they were born from the woman that he loved. And then Joseph was sold into slavery by his half-brothers because they were jealous of the favoritism.

Likewise, the relationship between Sarah and Hagar was not a happy one, and the consequences of that unhealthy rivalry are Biblically the explanation of the unhealthy relationship that exists between Arabs and Jews even today.

There may be some Biblical examples of healthy, virbrant, happy polygamous relationships, but none are springing to mind.

 

[ebia]

And? Why are you arguing against polygamy?

 

[RDKirk]

And? Why are you arguing against polygamy?

Yes you're right. I would add to the above that when God did state a law about Jacob's situation vis a vis Leah and Rachel, He prohibited such a practice. I think there was only one circumstance that a happy polygamous marriage was so much as mentioned, and it was not because of the polygamy...scripture simply didn't say it was a problem in that circumstance. But in every other circumstance a polygamous marriage was mentioned, it definitely caused problems. By the 1st century, Jews had read between the lines, and although polygamy was not specifically outlawed, it was seldom advised or practiced.

But you're right, Ebia, nobody here is arguing in favor of polygamy.

 

[RDKirk]

Conservative and liberal are relative terms. The fact that they are often interchangeable with right and left demonstrates this. They normally are used to define a continuum within the same society.
I don't think it translates well transpose the definitions used in one system to explain the phenomena in a completely different system.

The world, however, is bigger than one nation's political system, and as well, so is the Body of Christ.

Anyone with the worldview of Christ must see beyond the system of one nation, and must see the Body of Christ as larger than one system. Someone whose vision is no larger than one nation's system and whose taxonomy can encompass no more than one nation's system is not viewing the world cannot even see the whole Body of Christ.

That's the separation between the Pope and a lot of conservative Americans...the Pope is not American.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The world, however, is bigger than one nation's political system, and as well, so is the Body of Christ.

Anyone with the worldview of Christ must see beyond the system of one nation, and must see the Body of Christ as larger than one system. Someone whose vision is no larger than one nation's system and whose taxonomy can encompass no more than one nation's system is not viewing the world cannot even see the whole Body of Christ.

That's the separation between the Pope and a lot of conservative Americans...the Pope is not American.

Liberal pundits in the media talk about the Pope as if he's an American Democrat.

 

[ebia]

Liberal pundits in the media talk about the Pope as if he's an American Democrat.

How about addressing what is actually said here more, and what some vaguely defined other group supposedly says less?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

How about addressing what is actually said here more, and what some vaguely defined other group supposedly says less?

Do you mean you want me to comment on how Pope Francis is against so-called "same-sex marriage"?

 

[ebia]

Do you mean you want me to comment on how Pope Francis is against so-called "same-sex marriage"?

That wasn't part of my comment either way.

 

[SolomonVII]

The world, however, is bigger than one nation's political system, and as well, so is the Body of Christ.

Anyone with the worldview of Christ must see beyond the system of one nation, and must see the Body of Christ as larger than one system. Someone whose vision is no larger than one nation's system and whose taxonomy can encompass no more than one nation's system is not viewing the world cannot even see the whole Body of Christ.

That's the separation between the Pope and a lot of conservative Americans...the Pope is not American.

Well, he is South American.
I am not sure what the rest of the post has to do as a response to my post though.

The world is bigger than a nation.
Okay.
Christ is bigger than a nation.
Sure.
Can anyone see the whole Body of Christ?
Well maybe. That is not relative to being a conservative or a liberal though.

The separation of American conservatives and the pope does not centre on Catholic teachings, which are universally held by all the world's Catholics, those who align themselves with the communion of the popes and the saint, at least.
The separation of American conservatives and the pope centres on his tendency to speak in very liberal terms.
Other more conservative popes talked in more conservative terms, and if that was where where the separation between them and liberal Americans was centred on, then that is fair enough. One does not have to be a conservative to be a Catholic. God is neither a liberal or a conservative, to be sure. God is not relative, according to his absolute and transcendent nature.

But one does have to accept the Catholic de fide teachings. If one cannot accept those teachings on matters of faith and morals, such as absolute ban with cooperating with abortion, then one automatically excommunicates oneself.
And that is where the separation is between American liberals like Pelosi, and the Church, which is bigger than any pope, but includes all popes. Just as the world is bigger than any nation, the Church is bigger than the tendencies and inclinations of any pope, and American liberals certainly excommunicate themselves by accepting and promoting things that are contrary to church dogma.
This is more significant than a critique of the current pope's political views, to be sure. The differences between American conservatives and the pope pale in comparison to American liberals and the whole of the magesterium of the Church. To be clear, when Ted Kennedy led your party to the side of supporting abortion, he in effect excommunicated himself by doing so.
And that was even before he murdered that girl.

Oh, and if you open up the latest NRO, you will see who is starting to argue for polygamy now that the latest battle for the left has been won. It is not the conservatives in America, and not the pope either.
Guess who-o?
Three guesses, and the first two don't count.

At least it should be clear where I stand on polygamy. Other people ask the questions, but never give their answer, so who knows where you stand on it?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The term "marriage equality" is so meaningless that it can mean anything the "progressives" want it to mean.

 

[SolomonVII]

Liberal pundits in the media talk about the Pope as if he's an American Democrat.

This is true.
They often misquote him as well, and the leftists here bring those misquotes into this forum in order to drive a wedge between Catholics and their church.

 

[ebia]

This is true.
They often misquote him as well, and the leftists here bring those misquotes into this forum in order to drive a wedge between Catholics and their church.

Citation please

 

[SolomonVII]

The term "marriage equality" is so meaningless that it can mean anything the "progressives" want it to mean.

Marriage equality is a funny term.

It is like arguing that 10 is equal to 50, not because 10 really is the equal of fifty, but because arguing that 10 is less than 50 will hurt the feelings of 10.
Therefore, for the sake of feeling, very different things are redefined in order to be seen as the same.
And anyone who does not agree is obviously a ten-hater.

 

[SolomonVII]

Citation please

You were here in the very thread when it was pointed out to you, time and again.
I am not going to research things that you already really ought to know.

 

[ebia]

You were here in the very thread when it was pointed out to you, time and again.
I am not going to research things that you already really ought to know.

Your refusal to back up your accusation is duely noted.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

You were here in the very thread when it was pointed out to you, time and again.
I am not going to research things that you already really ought to know.

Exactly. By now it's common knowledge.

 

[SolomonVII]

Your refusal to back up your accusation is duely noted.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...palestinian-leader-an-angel-of-peace.7880371/


Okay, I am pretty anal about digging through a lot of dirt, just to prove myself right.
But I'll play your silly game.