The 4-point Calvinist's position - Nearer truth than full Calvinism or Arminianism?

FreeGrace2

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Heb 9:15 says, "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."
Read the part in red. The redemption of the transgressions is only for those who are called by God, not every single person.
No. The phrase "so that…those who have been called" is less than the reference to the "transgressions that were committed…".

Just like John 3:16; God loved the world (everyone) and sent His Son so that the believing ones (less than everyone) will not perish but have eternal life.
 
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Skala

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Funny, but there are no verses that support any of the 5 points.

Your canons of dordt must be full of holes. Find a replacement asap.

When I look at the canons of dordt (where TULIP was first formulated) I see billions of Bible verses.

Do you not see all those Bible verses? Really? NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM!?!?!?!
 
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Skala

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I never wrote it. I have only quoted what Greek experts who translated the verse. Your problem is with them, not me

I don't have a problem with them.


Huh? No, I haven't done that. My point had to do with what 'whoever' means. It means "anyone who". So let's add the next word, which is 'believes'. And we get "anyone who believes".

Actaully, it's not "anyone who believes", but "everyone who believes" or "the believing ones".

As we all know, word for word translations of the Greek can be quite awkward in the English, so the Greek language experts smoothed it out for us. But the reformed don't like how they understood it, so they just want to stick with the participlial phrase "the believing ones".

Um, it doesn't matter whether we consider the Greek or the modern day English - the words mean the same thing either way! God sent Christ to save believers.

The English doesn't use participial phrases nearly as much as the NT Greek does. And the real experts in Greek who translated Jn 3:16 translated in the way that THEY understood what the participial phrase MEANT.

See above
 
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dms1972

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I read the Bible and that's how I became convinced that the Bible teaches TULIP.

Thus, you can't "forget TULIP" because that is the same as "forget stuff the Bible teaches"
I used to think that too. But I found I can read the Bible, and pray and not bother with TULIP. If you are not perplexed thats fine, I suggested for those confused by these debates. I certainly won't be bothering with an acrostic thats been argued over for 400 years. If it's in the Bible, which it is partly in the Bible I think - but explained better, then reading the Bible humbly and prayerfully (not merely looking for my favorite theology to come out on top) I'll eventually get the full picture, which TULIP is only part of and a particular interpretation of.
 
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Epiphoskei

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If John 3:16 said "whosoever is one of the elect that believes will not perish but have eternal life", then your point would be valid.

But since you added a specific identifier in your example, it is not relevant to my comment about the phrase "whoever" in John 3:16, where there is not specific identifier.

That's incorrect. The syntax of both John 3:16 and my examples is: All {relative_pronoun relative_clause_predicate } main_clause_predicate.

The "identifier" I "add," namely "Is a man," and the "identifier" in John 3:16, "believes," perform the same grammatical function.

But since you seem to believe that "Is a man" and "believes" are syntactically different (Probably because one of them is an intransitive verb and the other is a copula with a predicate nominative, which is syntactically irrelevant to the nature of relative pronouns) I'll give you a substitute example without the PN. "Whoever conceives will bear a child."



I read the original language of the NT to find out how to find the Greek words in my lexicon. iow, I lean on the experts.
This is the boast of those who don't understand exactly how much effort is required to actually begin to conceive of Greek or grammar correctly. It takes eight college credits to learn basic grammar, and every graduate of first year Greek becomes a terror with a lexicon and his Mounce. You and they aren't "leaning on the experts" when they mangle translation. They're misusing the resources the don't understand. Thereafter it takes eight more credits of Dan Wallace before an individual begins to be able to exegete Greek safely.

This is a laugh. I know well how the Greek reads. Yet most of the translations seem to understand better than either of us what the Greek MEANT.

To listen to your rendition suggests the translators failed to get it right while your rendition is right. What are your credentials in Greek?

You're missing the point. My rendition isn't an alternate sense to the sense provided in the translations as they stand. My rendition is the sense of the translations as they already stand. In the English language, "God loved the world thus: He gave His only son so that all believers will not perish but will inherit eternal life" is exactly interchangeable with "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only son, that whosoever believeth in Him might not perish but may inherit eternal life." Some of that apparent distinction can be attributed to the fact that proper and colloquial English in the 20th-21st century are more variant than the colloquial speaker might believe. But at no point in our tongue's fifteen hundred year history has "all" plus a relative pronoun implied that all humans are capable of being predicated by the predicate of the relative pronoun.

My credentials are a degree in Classical languages, consisting of six semesters of Greek and four of other classics, plus the high school equivalent of two college semesters of Latin, followed up with continuing personal studies equivalent to probably eight semesters in various non Indo-European languages. If you add up all the years I've seriously or semi-seriously studied all my languages, I'm counting up to about fourteen years of practice in language and linguistic theory.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Your canons of dordt must be full of holes. Find a replacement asap.
I don't need a replacement. I have the Bible itself. I don't lean on man's understanding.

When I look at the canons of dordt (where TULIP was first formulated) I see billions of Bible verses.
Cool. Please provide just 1 verse for each of the 5 points that actually says what each point claims.

Do you not see all those Bible verses? Really? NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM!?!?!?!
i've read all of them, numerous times. And I've never seen any verse say what any of the 5 points claims.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I don't have a problem with them.
Seems that you do. From all that has been written.

Actaully, it's not "anyone who believes", but "everyone who believes" or "the believing ones".
There's no material difference tween "anyone" and "everyone".

Um, it doesn't matter whether we consider the Greek or the modern day English - the words mean the same thing either way! God sent Christ to save believers.
Yep. Anyone who believes.
 
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FreeGrace2

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That's incorrect. The syntax of both John 3:16 and my examples is: All {relative_pronoun relative_clause_predicate } main_clause_predicate.

The "identifier" I "add," namely "Is a man," and the "identifier" in John 3:16, "believes," perform the same grammatical function.
Thanks for the grammar lesson. :sleep:

But since you seem to believe that "Is a man" and "believes" are syntactically different (Probably because one of them is an intransitive verb and the other is a copula with a predicate nominative, which is syntactically irrelevant to the nature of relative pronouns) I'll give you a substitute example without the PN. "Whoever conceives will bear a child."
OK. Whoever believes will be saved.

This is the boast of those who don't understand exactly how much effort is required to actually begin to conceive of Greek or grammar correctly. It takes eight college credits to learn basic grammar, and every graduate of first year Greek becomes a terror with a lexicon and his Mounce. You and they aren't "leaning on the experts" when they mangle translation.
Ah, so…understanding the phrase "whosoever believes" doesn't really mean "anyone who believes", or "everyone who believes". Wow. Who woulda thunk.

They're misusing the resources the don't understand. Thereafter it takes eight more credits of Dan Wallace before an individual begins to be able to exegete Greek safely.
I guess the RCC was right. Us commoners shouldn't own a Bible. Or read it.

You're missing the point. My rendition isn't an alternate sense to the sense provided in the translations as they stand. My rendition is the sense of the translations as they already stand.
Maybe the point has been missed by you. Because my rendition is the sense of the translations as they already stand.

In the English language, "God loved the world thus: He gave His only son so that all believers will not perish but will inherit eternal life" is exactly interchangeable with "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only son, that whosoever believeth in Him might not perish but may inherit eternal life."
What does "whosoever" mean to you?

My credentials are a degree in Classical languages, consisting of six semesters of Greek and four of other classics, plus the high school equivalent of two college semesters of Latin, followed up with continuing personal studies equivalent to probably eight semesters in various non Indo-European languages. If you add up all the years I've seriously or semi-seriously studied all my languages, I'm counting up to about fourteen years of practice in language and linguistic theory.
So, with all that, what does "whosoever" mean to you?
 
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Epiphoskei

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Thanks for the grammar lesson. :sleep:
You're very welcome.

OK. Whoever believes will be saved.
Exactly


Ah, so…understanding the phrase "whosoever believes" doesn't really mean "anyone who believes", or "everyone who believes". Wow. Who woulda thunk.
That is precisely what it does mean. "All believers," or "whoever believes," which are interchangeable.


I guess the RCC was right. Us commoners shouldn't own a Bible. Or read it.
On the contrary, you are perfectly free to put in the amount of work necessary to speak on the subjects you choose to speak on. It should only take you about 500 hours of serious study before you too may correctly handle Greek syntax. The community of Greek scholars is not a magisterium, and we won't invest you with any funky hats before we allow you to handle the New Testament. We only ask that you don't belligerently contradict us over the finer points of the syntax of a language that we know and that you haven't logged enough hours in.


Maybe the point has been missed by you. Because my rendition is the sense of the translations as they already stand.
I'm afraid you're incorrect, for the above reasons which you indicate you snoozed through.

What does "whosoever" mean to you?


So, with all that, what does "whosoever" mean to you?

Whosoever: relative pronoun, archaic. Modern: whoever. A syntax marker nominalizing a group of parties who function as the subject of the subordinate clause, indicating every member of that class of persons. cf. Jn 3:16, where it indicates the entire body of people who are believing.
 
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Skala

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skala said:
Um, it doesn't matter whether we consider the Greek or the modern day English - the words mean the same thing either way! God sent Christ to save believers.

Yep. Anyone who believes.


THANK YOU!

So, you agreed with my statement that God sent Christ to save believers.

So you must agree that God did not send Christ to save unbelievers and people he knew would never be believers, right? (cuz of foreknowledge and stuff)

Basically you just admitted that God didn't send Christ to try to save everyone - but only save a select group.

The select group = everyone who believes/anyone who believes
anyone who believes = believers only
believers only = the elect

FG2 just affirmed that John 3:16 says God sent Christ to save the elect
 
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Skala

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T

So, with all that, what does "whosoever" mean to you?

whosoever is merely the word pas, which means "all"

but it is followed by "believers" (ho pisteuwn)

whosoever believes : pas ho pisteuwn

pas believers

all believers

whosoever believes = all who believe
 
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FreeGrace2

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Whosoever: relative pronoun, archaic. Modern: whoever. A syntax marker nominalizing a group of parties who function as the subject of the subordinate clause, indicating every member of that class of persons. cf. Jn 3:16, where it indicates the entire body of people who are believing.
Here is the Merriam-Webster definition:

Full Definition of WHOEVER

: whatever person : no matter who —used in any grammatical relation except that of a possessive

I believe that "no matter who" is equivalent to "anyone who".

iow, there is no restriction on who will believe. Anyone can believe.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So, you agreed with my statement that God sent Christ to save believers.
That's never been in doubt. And we also know that God wants all men to be saved.

So you must agree that God did not send Christ to save unbelievers and people he knew would never be believers, right? (cuz of foreknowledge and stuff)
Wrongo.

Basically you just admitted that God didn't send Christ to try to save everyone - but only save a select group.
He saves a select group: believers. No one else.

The select group = everyone who believes/anyone who believes
anyone who believes = believers only
believers only = the elect
Not real difficult.

FG2 just affirmed that John 3:16 says God sent Christ to save the elect
Nope. But your attempt to twist my words is noted.

He came to save those who believe. Anyone who believes. Everyone who believes.

And God only elects believers, per Eph 1:4, so your attempt to twist my words still doesn't work.

God chooses to save believers. 1 Cor 1:21. It says He is pleased to save those who believe, but we all know this would be a choice of His. :)
 
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FreeGrace2

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whosoever is merely the word pas, which means "all"
That wasn't the question. We are dealing with how Greek translation experts viewed the meaning of "pas" in this specific verse: Jn 3:16.

but it is followed by "believers" (ho pisteuwn)

whosoever believes : pas ho pisteuwn

pas believers

all believers

whosoever believes = all who believe
whoever believes, all who believe, anyone who believes, no matter who believes.
 
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Skala

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Nope. But your attempt to twist my words is noted.

Why is it "Nope"?

Translation: I refuse to affirm the logical implications of my own statement!

I had a feeling you'd deny yourself eventually, after you affirmed that John 3:16 says God sent Christ to save believers.

Skala said:
Did God send Christ to save believers only?
FG2 said:
Skala said:
So you must agree that God did not send Christ to save unbelievers
FG2 said:

Why is it wrong? You said yourself that God sent Christ to save believers. See? You said it right here:

skala said:
God sent Christ to save believers
FG said:
That's never been in doubt.

And again here:

skala said:
God sent Christ to save believers.
FG2 said:

And again here:

FG2 said:
He came to save those who believe. Anyone who believes. Everyone who believes.

Ok, so did he come to save those who do not believe? Yes or no.

If you answer yes, then you have dismantled your own argument.
If you answer no, then you have agreed with me and therefore your "nope" is not really a "nope" after all.

You can't simultaneously answer 'no' and also accuse me of twisting your words.

So which will it be? Will you retract your earlier statements that you affirmed that Jesus was sent to save believers?

(also, you denied foreknowledge in the post, which is odd)
 
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Skala

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That wasn't the question. We are dealing with how Greek translation experts viewed the meaning of "pas" in this specific verse: Jn 3:16.


whoever believes, all who believe, anyone who believes, no matter who believes.

They viewed it as pas.

Pretty straightforward.

It's not some special magical word that means more than the definition allows.

pas ho pisteuwn = all the believing ones

'all the believing ones' transliterated into every day English usage = whoever believes

What's so hard?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Why is it "Nope"?
Because it wasn't "yep".

Translation: I refuse to affirm the logical implications of my own statement!
You've missed all I wrote:
"Nope. But your attempt to twist my words is noted."

I had a feeling you'd deny yourself eventually, after you affirmed that John 3:16 says God sent Christ to save believers.
I've not denied myself. That's just ridiculous, obviously. And I've always affirmed that Christ was sent to save believeers. In fact, whosoever believes.

Why is it wrong? You said yourself that God sent Christ to save believers. See? You said it right here:
And again here:
And again here:

Ok, so did he come to save those who do not believe? Yes or no.
He came to save whosoever believes. Anyone who believes. Everyone who believes. I really don't think this is that difficult.

Of course He did not come to save anyone who does not believe. That would be universalism.

If you answer yes, then you have dismantled your own argument.
If you answer no, then you have agreed with me and therefore your "nope" is not really a "nope" after all.
Nope again. Your twisting of my view is still noted.

You can't simultaneously answer 'no' and also accuse me of twisting your words.
Yep.

So which will it be? Will you retract your earlier statements that you affirmed that Jesus was sent to save believers?
Of course Jesus was sent to save whosoever believes.

(also, you denied foreknowledge in the post, which is odd)
Please provide the exact quote where I did. I don't believe your claim.
 
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FreeGrace2

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They viewed it as pas.

Pretty straightforward.

It's not some special magical word that means more than the definition allows.

pas ho pisteuwn = all the believing ones

'all the believing ones' transliterated into every day English usage = whoever believes

What's so hard?
English speakers don't speak like the Greed did. The translators understood John to mean that "anyone who believes" or everyone who believes" will be saved.

Yep, not that hard.
 
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Skala

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And I've always affirmed that Christ was sent to save believeers. In fact, whosoever believes.

FG2 said:
He came to save whosoever believes. Anyone who believes. Everyone who believes.

FG2 said:
Of course Jesus was sent to save whosoever believes.

FG2 said:
Of course He did not come to save anyone who does not believe.


Originally posted by skala
So you must agree that God did not send Christ to save unbelievers

Originally Posted by FG2

:confused: Can you please explain what is wrongo? You seem to affirm a statement at one time, but then deny it another time. You're all over the place so it's hard to follow you.

Nope again. Your twisting of my view is still noted.

I didn't twist your view, I simply used logic. Observe:

P1) God sent Christ to save believers (you affirmed this)
FG2 said:
And I've always affirmed that Christ was sent to save believeers.

P2) God did not send Christ to save unbelievers (you affirmed this)
FG2 said:
Of course He did not come to save anyone who does not believe

P3) Believers are the elect
P4) Unbelievers are the non-elect

Conclusion: God sent Christ to save the elect, but not the non-elect

A) Can you show me if any of my premises are incorrect?
B) Can you show me how my logic in reaching the conclusion is wrong?
 
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Skala

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English speakers don't speak like the Greed did. The translators understood John to mean that "anyone who believes" or everyone who believes" will be saved.

Yep, not that hard.

It's not hard.

That's the same end result as saying "all the believers"
 
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