Messianic Judaism?

[Gxg (G²)]

Mine is like that too

Ditto on mine as well.

 

[Qnts2]

Modern Judaism is divided into several “denominations.” In Hebrew, they are called זְרָמִים zramim (plural of זֶ֫רֶם zérem). It literally means “streams,” smaller flows of water that procede out of a larger river. These zramim are called “movements” in English. Thus, we have “the Conservative Movement” (link) and others. The fact that the various groups of Jewish perspectives are classed into different movements does not mean that each movement has not produced its own responsa (תְּשׁוּבוֹ&#1514. I don’t see the connection between MJ being a movement and its not having any authoritative statements of its positions.

If the Conservative Movement did not have its responsa and set of accepted beliefs, it could not be a defined movement. Anyone could declare himself “Conservative” and set up his own synagogue. As it is, we have a defining body of doctrine statements, and we have a central rabbinic authority. Anyone who aspires to be a rabbi of the Conservative Movement must attend a seminary of the movement and receive ordination. If anyone wants to declare the opinions of the movement, they must read the responsa put out by the Rabbinical Assembly.

I see that Messianics have put together such doctrinal authorities for their followers, but as it is there is no standard by which one can say that he is a teacher of Messianic Judaism with authority. It really seems chaotic to an outsider, that the MJAA and other groups are just ignored (for lack of a better word). One can declare himself a “rabbi” without any right to the title and just start teaching and gather a following. Would you say that this is not the case?

And if someone can become a teacher, then surely he can become a lay person, a congregant, an adherent of the religious movement without adhering to any set of specific accepted doctrines. And once such a person has identified himself as “Messianic” even if he hasn’t joined a specific congregation or really studied the issues any deeper than a basic way, he can join this forum and others like it and start proclaiming himself a Messianic. All he has to do is sit back and take in a few key words and soon he’ll be participating just like everyone – though he knows nothing about the religion he’s claiming to belong to. There’s no central belief tying it all together, other than belief in Jesus being a Jewish teacher. I believe that Jesus was a Jewish teacher, and I’m not a Messianic. Could you please define things better??

Within the Messianic Judaism organizations, there are standards, and available training to be in leadership. To be a member, one must adhere to the statement of faith.

However, "Messianic" has become a popular thing so there are many differing group who are not members of Messianic Judaism, which have sprung up with beliefs which do not match Messianic Judaism. Unfortunately, there is no law which would prevent these people or groups from using the term 'Messianic' or Messianic Judaism, so there is not much which can be done. These other groups which are using the same name actually misrepresent Messianic Judaism beliefs.

For example, The society for the advancement of Nazarene Judaism is an organization formed by James Trimm. James Trimm claims to be Jewish (but is not), and calls himself a Messianic Jew. His theology does not match Messianic Judaism. So, it is confusing.

I consider this similar to The Society of Humanistic Judaism which was organized by Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine in 1969. While the various branches of Judaism do have their own responsa, that does not prevent others from forming with their own responsa. If a group of Gentiles formed a group called Goyish Judaism, and wrote their own responsa, there would be nothing to prevent that.

On this forum, there are people who claim the title of Messianic, but do not agree with Messianic Judaism.

 

[ContraMundum]

So what's your point? As noted there were Jewish believers who still 'practiced' Judaism.

I'm a Jewish believer and still practice Judaism as well as other Jewish believers.

Exactly. Why is it that Gentiles always want to judge us and slot us into little boxes?? Even those in RJism don't do that much judging of us anymore.

 

[ContraMundum]

You might be with your relative hunting but when you get back know that touched my heart!

It's true about not really knowing folks only based on what they say here

I have met some of you and we all are quite different in person aren't we? We should try skyping sometime

Tish, with respect, I think his post was not really a sincere confession of the cunning plan to smear he admitted to, as he spent most of it spinning my words, spoken to him on another forum, into a way of attacking me here. I don't know how that could touch anyone's heart in a good way.

As an aside, I think this thread has become very productive, and it seems that the consensus has remained to try to be gracious to one another. Perhaps the real problem here is that there was a conspiracy to disrupt this forum, and at least one person has publically admitted to it. Obviously these self-admitted Torah observant folks who were part of this woeful disturbance haven't learned the concept of shalom bayis- which is Torah, at least to me and most likely the other Jews here.

So, how about this: when Tal gets back, let's run a thread on the necessity of living the heart of the Torah. Then Tal can participate in the tikkun here, which I think would be a sign of good faith.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Tish, with respect, I think his post was not really a sincere confession of the cunning plan to smear he admitted to, as he spent most of it spinning my words, spoken to him on another forum, into a way of attacking me here. I don't know how that could touch anyone's heart in a good way.

.

Direct quotation of what has been said - in regards to things said elsewhere PRIOR to making comments here on the thread - may be about the only real issue in driving the point home on how many things have not truly been sincere...and pretense on multiple levels. If people deny what was said, then you have a good indicator on where people really stand.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

My opinion- "non-observance" should not be taught here. Just respect differing levels and points in personal growth, and it will be ok.

I think you noted it best when sharing the following that clarifies a lot on the issue:

Originally Posted by ContraMundum

To be fair, I don't think any sound, sane or authoratative leader who is an actual Messianic Jew tries to pit Paul's message of grace against the Old Testament. In fact, the movement seeks to put Paul back into his own frame of reference- a pharisaic teacher. I realize of course that the word "pharisee" is not used kindly in many places in the Gospels, but not all pharisees were wrong (eg. Nicodemus) and we should count Paul among those who got it right.

The issue is that no actual sound Messianic Jew (and there only a couple on this forum) sees any contradiction between the OT and the NT.

What might be of interest to you is that looking at Paul through Jewish eyes makes a lot more sense of him, and it in no way diminishes either grace or the proper use of the Law. It does, in fact, spur the reader into a greater desire to serve rather than just understand. It puts the lifestyle of the Christian into the focus that has gone missing because of the recent theological trend for cheap grace.

Secondly, it might be interesting to note that many Christians have forgotten that the best of the teachers in the history of the Church always sought after a better understanding of Paul and the New Testament message of grace through Jewish "Old Testament" eyes. Check out the better old teachers lke Gill, Wesley, Arndt, Spener, Fletcher etc.

Importantly, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that a person is saved by their works, keeping traditions or observance of the Law. However, faith and works are not seen as opposite forces, but two parts of the same object. This is the same in Christianity (hence Paul teaches that Abraham was justified by faith before Sinai ever came into effect) This demonstrates that a proper understanding of the NT is a Judaic understanding, and that the NT is truly a Jewish book.

Judaism then and now also teaches that while all mankind is not under the Torah of Sinai, it is under the moral obligations (given as laws by God) of all human beings. Thus every son and daughter of Noah is under what the church calls the moral law. Again, this validates the NT as Jewish, and elevates moral truth above all temporal acts of service and worship.

Likewise, the Jewish religion- then and now- has never taught that the whole of the Torah given at Sinai is for everyone to observe. This gels nicely also with the message of the NT. This proves that the Apostles - under the influence of the Holy Spirit- kept to a Jewish understanding of the Torah when they didn't force circumcision and Sabbaths on to the Gentiles. This distinction is in fact very Jewish.

The thing is that today many Jewish Christians like myself fully accept that one's identity is in Christ, and that His body the church is one and all that other NT stuff, but we come from a culture that is rather strong and often closed to the rest of the world. We see that the Church has Christianities that are very inculturated- the Greek Orthodox, The Russian Othodox (all the national autocephalous churches fit in here), the Latin Churches, Americanized Evangelicalism and so forth. So, if they have expressions of Christianity bourne from their cultures- why can't we? I mean, weren't we the among first kind of churches before we got booted out by Chrysostom and others like him?

What I'm getting at is this- no person approaching the NT from a Jewish pov would ever pit grace vs. outward observance of the Sinai Covenant laws. We say many of them have a place today in Jewish life, and we should be free to live the way we always have, but with the understanding that the covenant and law of Christ is the fulfilled Torah.

I do not think that Gentiles should be circumcised, nor do I invite them to lay tefillin with me. I am the senior minister of a Sunday church, but I don't do any work on Saturday either. I attend all the Jewish holidays, but I don't expect Gentiles to come and frankly I don't even invite them. I eat kosher only. I am saved by grace through faith just as my forefathers were before the cross. The NT teaches that I am allowed to live this way, and you are allowed to live your own way, and we should be happy to do that and still care for each other (Rom 14) I rather like that.

However, if someone comes to you and says that you need to keep all the Jewish festivals, the Sabbaths or any other thing like that just tell them that a Jew told you that ain't Jewish, and that's not the right way to read the NT. The Jewish way of understanding is the correct way...and there's a lot of people out there finding new ways to steal the Jewish identity from us and dilute our people into oblivion- which is exactly what forcing everyone into the Sinai law results in.



God forbid that we should water down the Gospel. But, this is danger in any tradition, Jewish or Gentile. All of us should keep watch for this.
​

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Where I grew up was a primarily Jewish neighborhood in Philly. As times went on non Jews started to move in our neighborhood which there were no issues. When they decorated for Christmas there was no problems with that. The Jews never said 'look at the pagan goyim'. Jews for the most part know what they believe and don't go pointing fingers that Christians are pagan. Now when Jew becomes a believer and assimilates in a Messianic Jewish synagogue the same applies.

 

[ContraMundum]

I think you noted it best when sharing the following that clarifies a lot on the issue:

​

Thanks, but I got hammered for that post too. Why? Probably because I used Christian terms and so forth (ironically to show Jewish roots and remnants in the Church- which is something worthy, I would have thought). Some people don't want to find the Jewish bits in Christian theology. I rather find it interesting. Others might want to throw it all away and start over...but they arrive where I already am, theologically speaking, albiet at a different kind of fellowship. I have no problem with that. I use Christian terms because this is a sub-forum in a Christian Forum. I find it easier to help mutual understanding. Both Christians and M's understand the terms. Sometimes you need a common language at the beginning of a discussion, like the Reformers used Latin to have theological dialogue with Rome. Everyone understood the terms. It was a start.

I bring this up because it was brought up elsewhere, and I thought it might be useful to point it out here.

 

[ContraMundum]

For the record, I'm with macher, EZG etc...I don't like Church bashing. Christians have almost always been good to me.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks, but I got hammered for that post too. Why? Probably because I used Christian terms and so forth (ironically to show Jewish roots and remnants in the Church- which is something worthy, I would have thought).

It's actually something real Messianic Jews have long noted repeatedly - especially in the dominant Messianic Jewish organizations today, be it MJAA or UMJC...and even apart from those, other Jewish believers who love the Law.

People bitter against Churches or Christians often say things against what it is that you noted, from what I've often seen when talking to people who used to do so - and experience the ways the Lord delivered them from that to see what it was they were really doing.

Some people don't want to find the Jewish bits in Christian theology. I rather find it interesting. Others might want to throw it all away and start over...but they arrive where I already am, theologically speaking, albiet at a different kind of fellowship. I have no problem with that. I use Christian terms because this is a sub-forum in a Christian Forum. I find it easier to help mutual understanding. Both Christians and M's understand the terms. Sometimes you need a common language at the beginning of a discussion, like the Reformers used Latin to have theological dialogue with Rome. Everyone understood the terms. It was a start.

More than understand where you're coming from - as it is no different than what the early Jewish Body of Believers (and later the Gentile Body of Believers ) did in the 1st Century during the era of the Apostles. I can't see anyone who really wishes to be honest with history as it occured saying otherwise.

I bring this up because it was brought up elsewhere, and I thought it might be useful to point it out here.

I was aware of it (as are others) alongside other things.

 

[pat34lee]

It began with those who rejected Yeshua? What about Hillel?

Hillel may be quoted in the talmud, but he didn't write it. That began with Akiva, who made himself one of the great rabbis in it. Look up his history of dealing with messianic Jews and Christians.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

For the record, I'm with macher, EZG etc...I don't like Church bashing. Christians have almost always been good to me.

Anyone can be like the example Christ held up in the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-39). And you find them all throughout the world of Christendom. ..fulfilling what Christ noted in Matthew 25 when it came to visiting those in prison, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry and being His Hands/Feet to those struggling - directly touching the HEart of the Lord in the process.

I wonder why this can be a difficult concept to comprhend for many - as if other Jewish believers have not already spoken on it.

 

[ContraMundum]

I sometimes wonder if Jewish believers are looking for something different from their faith then some Gentile Messianics. I read today about the early Jews who converted to Christianity...some praises for the Church and also her charitable outreaches in there. I also look for good works when I look at religion. Coincidence, or the result of culture, religion and childhood environment? Maybe those looking for other things in their faith have their own reasons?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I sometimes wonder if Jewish believers are looking for something different from their faith then some Gentile Messianics. I read today about the early Jews who converted to Christianity...some praises for the Church and also her charitable outreaches in there. I also look for good works when I look at religion. Coincidence, or the result of culture, religion and childhood environment? Maybe those looking for other things in their faith have their own reasons?

What I've noticed, personally, is that what some Gentile Messianics often want is radically different than what Jewish believers believed and practiced in the time of Christ/the Apostles and other Jewish communities - be it in their stances toward Gentiles or in the emphasis they placed on certain practices/actions.

Regardless of how many within MJism have noted what is to be central with charity/righteousness and acts of Good WOrks - in line with what other Observant Jews did such as Tabitha in Acts 9:35-37 /Acts 9 who made clothing for others and helped the poor - it is rather amazing seeing that it's deemed as either too "easy" or "not enough" to serve/love others practically ..as if that was not the heart of Torah to begin with, according to what Christ said in Luke 10:25-39.

When it is at the point that doing what the Lord commanded--loving Widows and orphans and walking justly/humbly and love mercy ( Micah 6:7-9 Micah 6, James 2:12-14/ James 2 )--something is wrong. And I say that in light of how often I saw many within certain Hebrew Roots circles literally dismiss anyone as not loving God's law as much as them since they often talk on it/how much more observant they were compared to others.....even though they'd NEVER go out of the way to love/serve others practically and were only focused on the theological. For true observance will always be demonstrated by service to others more so than service to the mind with how much one may theologically understand.

James 2
brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
​

For many, it comes down to what Paul noted in Romans 13:

Romans 13:9

Love Fulfills the Law

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Galatians 5:5-7


​

Paul quoted from Exodus 20:13-15,17 and Deut. 5:17-19/Deut. 5:21 as it concerns some of what the Mosaic Code said--though his central basis for love being the greatest came from Lev. 19:18...on love for the Lord/neighbor. The concept of the "Royal Law" is something that flowed from that understanding, as he also noted in Galatians 5:5-7/ Galatians 5 and where he stated "serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself" ( Galatians 5:12-14 ). This is based solely on what the Lord Jesus also indicated when he was asked on what the greatest question was---and he repeatedly noted the same on how it was Love for the Lord/Love for one's neighbor ( Matthew 22:33-35 /Matthew 22, Mark 12:27-29 / Mark 12:29 Mark 12 ). It seems that the Lord went out of his way to make clear that loving one's neighbor was something that everyone--Jew or Gentile---was required to do......and was always the standard.


And it was a very SIMPLE standard.

This is exactly what Paul noted in Romans 2 when he noted in no uncertain terms that those who were without the Law would be judged on the basis of what they know, just as those with Mosaic Law (as it concerns the Jews) would be judged based on what the Lord told them.


The lady who may be an Aboriginal---only knowing of how Jesus is Lord and that he wants us to serve as He served us---and choosing to wash feet or work in soup kitchens is just as observant to the Lord as the person who may be either circumcised or celebrating the Festivals. One is a matter of observance based on what one knows through the Mosaic, whereas the other is based on observance of the Spirit behind all of the Lord's instructions to His people. In both cases,the call to observe as the Torah commands is in play--but one is not necessarily a lesser believer compared to another who may be on a differing level--nor can another command another to stop observing since he or she is seeking to honor/love the Lord. It's the beauty of what the Lord noted in the Torah

Curious if you've ever seen this video...

"Why I Hate Religion, But I Love Jesus".​

I actually saw sometime earlier last year due to one of my friends wanting me to check it out..and although I thought it was excellent on many points, many things can easily be taken the wrong way if the proper context is either forgotten or lost in translation when terms aren't defined. If interested, here is a rebuttal of that video made by an Orthodox priest.

For religion isn't the best term to describe what it is that he was trying to convey. As James 1:26-27 notes"

James 1:22-27
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. 26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

​

Also, for another..

1 Timothy 5:4
But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.
1 Timothy 5:3-5
​

There is the reality that certain forms of religion were beautiful to the Lord...one that loved justice and mercy and kept oneself from spiritual compromise with worldliness.

Any religion that leaves love out of the equation, as Yeshua commanded, is not a religion that the Lord said he favored. In fact, it's rather the opposite. And there are other scriptures noting the reality of how false religion that has no lov is worthless--especially when doing all of the outer aspects of what the Lord requires and yet completely missing the Spirit, such as when the Lord rebuked his people for doing as he commanded with sacrifices/temple worship and yet they couldn't care less for the Lord since they tolerated idolatry and injustice in the land...and to them, it was all good ( Jeremiah 7:1-3/ Jeremiah 7 , etc ).

The book of Amos is rather blunt on that issue, if seeing how much the Lord spoke through that prophet to declare how he was tired of buisness as usual/making a mockery of the religion he instituted:

Amos 5:20-22
“I hate, I despise your religious festivals; your assemblies are a stench to me. 22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
I will have no regard for them.
23 Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.
24 But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream!

Amos 8:9-11
Hear this, you who trample the needy
and do away with the poor of the land,

5 saying,
“When will the New Moon be over
that we may sell grain,
and the Sabbath be ended
that we may market wheat?”—
skimping on the measure,
boosting the price
and cheating with dishonest scales,
6 buying the poor with silver
and the needy for a pair of sandals,
selling even the sweepings with the wheat.
7 The LORD has sworn by himself, the Pride of Jacob: “I will never forget anything they have done.
8 “Will not the land tremble for this,
and all who live in it mourn?
The whole land will rise like the Nile;
it will be stirred up and then sink
like the river of Egypt. 9 “In that day,” declares the Sovereign LORD,

I will turn your religious festivals into mourning and all your singing into weeping. I will make all of you wear sackcloth and shave your heads. I will make that time like mourning for an only son and the end of it like a bitter day.
​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

read today about the early Jews who converted to Christianity...some praises for the Church and also her charitable outreaches in there. I also look for good works when I look at religion. Coincidence, or the result of culture, religion and childhood environment?

Talking to other Messianic Jews from a myriad of backgrounds, I'd definately say the latter (i.e. culture, religion, etc.) - as nothing of what you said was at any point (nor is it ever) in contradiction to Torah Observance, Celebration of God's Law...or in disharmony of what has been taught in Judaism. The school of Hiliel taught the same things..

 

[Avodat]

It's actually something real Messianic Jews have long noted repeatedly - especially in the dominant Messianic Jewish organizations today, be it MJAA or UMJC...and even apart from those, other Jewish believers who love the Law.

People bitter against Churches or Christians often say things against what it is that you noted, from what I've often seen when talking to people who used to do so - and experience the ways the Lord delivered them from that to see what it was they were really doing.
More than understand where you're coming from - as it is no different than what the early Jewish Body of Believers (and later the Gentile Body of Believers ) did in the 1st Century during the era of the Apostles. I can't see anyone who really wishes to be honest with history as it occured saying otherwise.
I was aware of it (as are others) alongside other things.

Sociologically speaking, I find MJism is made up of a large proportion of people like this. It seems to be a magnet for gentile dis-affected church goers. This may well be at the root of many of the problems it has - groups of dis-affected people usually end up with a level of anarchy being present among them at either group level or at individual levels. This dis-affection usually manifests itself in being anti-Church (and maybe anti-Christian), and anti any sort of authority from local ministers through to the structures of local congregations and, in the wider sphere, denominational structures.

This dis-affection drives them to seek something where they can voice their 'individuality' in either theological / spiritual or personal terms without accountability to anyone but themselves. MJism, with no Creed or Systematic Theology and little real accountability, except for a few small groups in the US, is an obvious magnet if they still wish to worship G_d.

The freedom found in MJism also means that it is 'ok' to the reject any part of scripture on a whim; the tension held between 'Old' and 'New', where the 'New' has always tipped the scales in the Church, rebounds like an elastic band to swing in the opposite direction causing much of the 'New' to be open to rejection (as in anti-Paul). This is more pronounced if that scripture can be directly related to being a doctrine of the Church to which they belonged and from which they seceded in the past.

Don't know if it is the same in the experience of others, but I suspect it is certainly the case in CF at various levels - it would be interesting to know.

 

[macher]

Sociologically speaking, I find MJism is made up of a large proportion of people like this. It seems to be a magnet for gentile dis-affected church goers. This may well be at the root of many of the problems it has - groups of dis-affected people usually end up with a level of anarchy being present among them at either group level or at individual levels. This dis-affection usually manifests itself in being anti-Church (and maybe anti-Christian), and anti any sort of authority from local ministers through to the structures of local congregations and, in the wider sphere, denominational structures.

This dis-affection drives them to seek something where they can voice their 'individuality' in either theological / spiritual or personal terms without accountability to anyone but themselves. MJism, with no Creed or Systematic Theology and little real accountability, except for a few small groups in the US, is an obvious magnet if they still wish to worship G_d.

The freedom found in MJism also means that it is 'ok' to the reject any part of scripture on a whim; the tension held between 'Old' and 'New', where the 'New' has always tipped the scales in the Church, rebounds like an elastic band to swing in the opposite direction causing much of the 'New' to be open to rejection (as in anti-Paul). This is more pronounced if that scripture can be directly related to being a doctrine of the Church to which they belonged and from which they seceded in the past.

Don't know if it is the same in the experience of others, but I suspect it is certainly the case in CF at various levels - it would be interesting to know.

In the real world no I don't find Messianic Judaism to be a magnet for dis-affected non Jewish believers. I believe that the region you live makes a big difference. When one isn't physically in touch I believe it makes a difference. Most heavy populated areas have Messianic congregations. I'm in Philly and this is the case.

I find that most dis-affected are those that live in somewhat of seclusion and/or out of touch physically with society. So the only fellowship and teaching they have is what they find on the internet. I also think not living near a Jewish community makes a huge difference. Most of the Jewish communities for the most part are located in the big cities and/ North East and on the coasts. And most if not all Jewish communities have a Messianic congregation close by. My congregation 'believe it or not' opened up smack in my old neighborhood where there was one conservative and 2 orthodox synagogue within walking distance and at least 3 other synagogues within driving distance.

What I see here is not even close to my experience in the real physical world fellowship.

This is why I believe that Messianic Judaism is perceived to be all over the place. It is all over the place per se but if I never came online I wouldn't know any other way if you get what I'm saying. Actually really it isn't all over the place. The more notable Messianic Jewish organizations are somewhat united in their theology.

Now the MJAA and the UMJC as examples and even the CTOMC are somewhat in line with each other. The problem is and I'll use MJAA as an example is that since they aren't congregationaly focused I've read that groups that form under the MJAA aren't properly trained. Meaning anyone can form a group under the MJAA and be completely different than what the MJAA teaches. I've chatted with people online that said they were part of a congregation that was MJAA and I was shocked on how different their congregation was compared to the ones I attended. Now if this is the case then the MJAA needs to start some sort of training new congregational leaders instead of just letting them run wild.

The real problem in my opinion has been birthed from the likes of FFOZ divine invitation theology for non Jews in Messianic Judaism. My opinion that paper has been highly misrepresented. In my opinion it answers the question about non Jews in regards to observance. I think the paper reverts from a very dogmatic approach.

 

[Avodat]

In the real world no I don't find Messianic Judaism to be a magnet for dis-affected non Jewish believers. I believe that the region you live makes a big difference. When one isn't physically in touch I believe it makes a difference. Most heavy populated areas have Messianic congregations. I'm in Philly and this is the case.

I find that most dis-affected are those that live in somewhat of seclusion and/or out of touch physically with society. So the only fellowship and teaching they have is what they find on the internet. I also think not living near a Jewish community makes a huge difference. Most of the Jewish communities for the most part are located in the big cities and/ North East and on the coasts. And most if not all Jewish communities have a Messianic congregation close by. My congregation 'believe it or not' opened up smack in my old neighborhood where there was one conservative and 2 orthodox synagogue within walking distance and at least 3 other synagogues within driving distance.

What I see here is not even close to my experience in the real physical world fellowship.

This is why I believe that Messianic Judaism is perceived to be all over the place. It is all over the place per se but if I never came online I wouldn't know any other way if you get what I'm saying. Actually really it isn't all over the place. The more notable Messianic Jewish organizations are somewhat united in their theology.

Now the MJAA and the UMJC as examples and even the CTOMC are somewhat in line with each other. The problem is and I'll use MJAA as an example is that since they aren't congregationaly focused I've read that groups that form under the MJAA aren't properly trained. Meaning anyone can form a group under the MJAA and be completely different than what the MJAA teaches. I've chatted with people online that said they were part of a congregation that was MJAA and I was shocked on how different their congregation was compared to the ones I attended. Now if this is the case then the MJAA needs to start some sort of training new congregational leaders instead of just letting them run wild.

The real problem in my opinion has been birthed from the likes of FFOZ divine invitation theology for non Jews in Messianic Judaism. My opinion that paper has been highly misrepresented. In my opinion it answers the question about non Jews in regards to observance. I think the paper reverts from a very dogmatic approach.

So maybe America with its proliferation of MJ fellowships is fortunate not to have too many gentile dis-affected Church-goers, though that really does surprise me, I have to admit. If that is the case then I suspect that CF might well be taking up the slack on this issue, from the stories one hears on here. Certainly in other countries a large proportion of MJ's fall into this category. Outside of America a good number of MJ congregations are lay-led. The leaders have no proper training for the job to which they have appointed themselves because there are no training facilities apart from some on-line groups and/or on-line universities offering training to ordination level; but they are expensive, if the training is worth undertaking, and many cannot afford to gain accreditation in this way. There are also, of course, Uni's offering 'degrees', up to doctorate level, with minimal input required by the 'student', who hasn't therefore any real understanding of the subject matter, just an expensive piece of paper declaring him/her to be a 'Master' or 'Doctor' of something or other.

 

[macher]

So maybe America with its proliferation of MJ fellowships is fortunate not to have too many gentile dis-affected Church-goers, though that really does surprise me, I have to admit. If that is the case then I suspect that CF might well be taking up the slack on this issue, from the stories one hears on here. Certainly in other countries a large proportion of MJ's fall into this category. Outside of America a good number of MJ congregations are lay-led. The leaders have no proper training for the job to which they have appointed themselves because there are no training facilities apart from some on-line groups and/or on-line universities offering training to ordination level; but they are expensive, if the training is worth undertaking, and many cannot afford to gain accreditation in this way. There are also, of course, Uni's offering 'degrees', up to doctorate level, with minimal input required by the 'student', who hasn't therefore any real understanding of the subject matter, just an expensive piece of paper declaring him/her to be a 'Doctor' of something or other.

I was sharing my experience where I live which doesn't mean it's like that all over.

 

[Avodat]

I was sharing my experience where I live which doesn't mean it's like that all over.

OK - sorry, I read it as a generalisation for the US.