A Challenge for Anti-evolutionists

Hawkins

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But the ToE does not say that they changed phyla. What the ToE SAYS is that different phyla/kingdoms/orders arose from one group of organisms splitting and changing so much that they became different species, which continued to further split, which continued to further split, etc.

It is totally faith-based, and ToE is very deceptive this way.

When you observed that bacteria or simplest forms of organism behave this way, you/ToE however conclude that all kinds of living organism behave this way. This conclusion requires faith. When you observed how bacteria behave, you can't simply conclude that humans are evolved that way. At most, you can only conclude that bacteria evolves that way, you need faith to believe in that humans evolve the same way as bacteria do without proof.

Science however requires you to predictably reproduce a human from scratch (or from low live form) in laboratory to make that conclusion. If you can't, then just admit that the theory is your own belief by faith.
 
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metherion

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Science however requires you to predictably reproduce a human from scratch (or from low live form) in laboratory to make that conclusion.

This one statement shows just how completely you misunderstand science. This combined with your old PRATT about faith... Nope. Sorry.

Metherion
 
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spiritual warrior

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Never purely beneficial? Nylon bug frameshift mutation.

Nope...adaptive change already within the genome, just like the bacteria that adapt to previous toxic environments. It's not a mutation. Try again.

Citation needed.
For which part? Most of what I said here is covered further down. Plenty of citations.

It doesn't really matter who started it. Creationists are the ones that use it in an attempt to separate evolution out so they can deny the portions that aren't proven enough for them.
You are correct, and it really doesn't matter who started it, but by you believing that creationists did, you demonstrate that your knowledge on the subject isn't as strongly founded as you believe. However, you are incorrect in stating that we attempt to separate TOE to show it's hollowness. As I said, evolutionary theorists started the micro and macro thing to get people to agree with micro (for how can you deny micro when it is re-vamped and made synonymous with adaptation?), then turn around and say that if I agree with micro that I also have to agree with macro, for small changes (micro) eventually give way to speciation (macro). This is how it is used, now for over 15 years, if you disagree then you don't understand what you purport to.

This massive wall of text is nice, but I was thinking more like links to sources in full context. Not little snippets that seemingly support your ideas but probably don't when read in full context.
I can't do links, and I don't have the time right now to list them all. I will do so tomorrow if I get the chance. However, I can assure you that every one of them do support what I am telling you...have you read a science paper before?

I'm going to take a gamble and say that these cited papers, in full context, don't support whatever conclusion you're coming to. Especially since you're citing Lenski, who leads the
Well, I wish I had your money, because you just lost. All of Lenski's work was based upon E. coli's adaptive changes...non-accidental, non-random chance genetic changes. All of his conclusions are solidly based upon genetic changes OTHER than replication-dependent, accidental random chance genetic changes...but you will not see that if you don't look at the definitions of mutations and non-accidental random chance changes that I spelled out for you earlier.

Why don't you go there? But this time without a quote-mined wall of text.
Be careful....I did not quote myself because it was myself. As for your challenge...in good time. Let's stick to one subject at a time. After I finish demonstrating the error of your beliefs on this point, I will gladly show you the error of your beliefs on that point.

:cool:
 
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Dark_Lite

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Nope...adaptive change already within the genome, just like the bacteria that adapt to previous toxic environments. It's not a mutation. Try again.

Well that's convenient. This is just like the Sum and his philosophical skepticism. Any evidence for evolution is conveniently rejected (or in your case considered an "adaptation") while it is demanded that evidence for creationism be accepted. Are you aware of what frameshift mutations do? Oftentimes they result in horrible problems for the organism.

It's just the usual goalpost shifting, except obscured somewhat by quote mined scientific papers. It's the same as the shifting definition of "kind," or claiming there are no such thing as transitional fossils and then when presented with transitional fossils pretending that they are all unrelated.

You are correct, and it really doesn't matter who started it, but by you believing that creationists did, you demonstrate that your knowledge on the subject isn't as strongly founded as you believe.

Well, according to Wikipedia, the original use of the term was much different from the way creationists use it today. So we can indeed say the meaning we have today is the result of the creationist movement.

Well, I wish I had your money, because you just lost. All of Lenski's work was based upon E. coli's adaptive changes...non-accidental, non-random chance genetic changes. All of his conclusions are solidly based upon genetic changes OTHER than replication-dependent, accidental random chance genetic changes...but you will not see that if you don't look at the definitions of mutations and non-accidental random chance changes that I spelled out for you earlier.

Lenski affair - RationalWiki

Yeah, uh huh. Lenski is an evolutionary biologist.

Your entire argument is not based upon science. It's based upon quote-mined papers and a goalpost-shifting definition of mutations and "adaptations." It's an attempt to obscure what is actually the same into two different things in order to provide support for creationism. But like every bit of "evidence" for creationism, it falls apart under examination.
 
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metherion

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Nope, not an atheist. Roman Catholic. But I believe in God because of faith, not because of evidence (as there isn't any objective, scientific evidence for God), and there certainly isn't evidence in nature for a God who steps in every now and then to just change things for no apparent reason.

Metherion
 
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Jase

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I want to work on this statement here, you don't believe in a creator? So you're an atheist then?
One cannot prove God's existence. Many have tried over the millenia and failed. God is supernatural and is outside the bounds of evidence. And logical arguments like the Ontological or Cosmological arguments have flaws or some premise that does not work.

Claiming God can't be proven to exist does not make one an atheist, it makes them honest.
 
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spiritual warrior

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This massive wall of text is nice, but I was thinking more like links to sources in full context. Not little snippets...

Here you go...and happy reading. Just to head you off at the pass, the language used by most of these authors addresses the non-random, non-accident, non-chance genetic changes in these papers call them "adaptive mutations" or the like - however, they are not mutations, they are the exact opposite of the definition of a mutation. Keep that in mind as you read them.

29. Labrador; Protein encoding by both DNA strands; Nature 409:1000, 2001

13. Dorn, Reuter, and Loewendorf; Transgene analysis proves mRNA trans- splicing at the complex mod(mdg4) locus in Drosophila; PNAS 98:9724-9729
Elson, Samuels, Turnbill, and Chinnery; 2001; Random Intracellular Drift Explains the Clonal Expansion of Mitochondrial DNA Mutations with Age; The American Society of Human Genetics, 2001

26. Horiuchi, Giniger, and Aigaki; Alternative trans-splicing of constant and variable exons of a Drosophila axon guidance gene, lola; Genes Dev; 17:2496-2501, 2003

14. Fischer, Butler, Pan, and Ruvkun; Trans-splicing in C. elegans generates the negative RNAi Regulator ERI-6/7; Nature, September 25; 455(7212): 491-496, 2008

15. Foster; Adaptive Mutation: Implications for Evolution; BioEssays 22:1067-1074, 2000

24. Harris, Ross, and Rosenberg; Opposing Roles of the Holliday Junction Processing System of E. coli in Recombination-Dependent Adaptive Mutation; Genetic 142:681-691, Mar. 1996

3. Bull, McKenzie, Hastings, and Rosenberg; Evidence that Stationary-Phase Hypermutation in the E. coli Chromosome is Promoted by Recombination; Genetics 154:1427-1437, Apr. 2000

23. Hall; Activation of the bgl Operon by Adaptive Mutation; Mol. Biol. Evol. 15(1):1-5, 1998

39. Schneider and Lenski; Dynamics of Insertion Sequence Elements During Experimental Evolution of Bacteria; Research in Microbiology; 155:319-327, 2004

35. McKenzie, Harris, Lee, and Rosenberg; The SOS Response Regulates Adaptive Mutations; Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Vol. 97, No. 12; 6646-6651, June 2000

:cool:
 
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mazvaris

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Evolution, dinosours and the age of the Earth
How can we reconcile evolution with the Bible? We need to go back to Genesis.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 raises several questions and possibly answers to evolution
1) The earth was formless – Does it mean God could not create a perfect earth on the first go?
2) The earth was dark – How come His first creation is already dark? Keeping in mind God is light and light always precedes darkness.
3) Did you ever wonder God said ‘Let there be light’ in Gen1:3 but darkness is mentioned in Gen1:2. Is that to say darkness occurred before the light?
4) Did anything happen between verse 1 and 2?
5) The whole earth was covered with water. Was it due to rain?
What Im trying to get to is there could have been judgement (by water/flood) of some sort of life on earth between Gen1:1 and Gen1:2. The sun was there but the earth was dark. This is because the earth was covered by a dense cloud/mist that had caused the global flood. So it is a possibly the dinosours lived on earth and this flood killed them.


Man missing link is the serpent becuase it could talk and reason. Therefore it was almost human with a spirit, mind and body but without a soul.
 
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Nope, not an atheist. Roman Catholic. But I believe in God because of faith, not because of evidence (as there isn't any objective, scientific evidence for God), and there certainly isn't evidence in nature for a God who steps in every now and then to just change things for no apparent reason.

Metherion

Ah I get ya, so what role or involvement do you suppose God had or has in the universe?

You see for me, when it is claimed everything was created for Him and by Him and everything exists because of Him, this is literally true. I trust the teachings of the apostles as they conveyed the truth because they met Truth and gazed at Truth and learnt from the source of Truth for three years.

Now you say there is no scientific evidence for God, well if you mean can science take God and put Him in a test tube (Lord forgive me) then we are in agreeance. But i feel that God has made Himself known through His creation (regardless of how He created ) and this is where i vehemently disagree with any Christian who believes otherwise.

Let us examine what St Paul has to say on the matter -

[bless and do not curse]18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [a]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.

Now this actually melts my heart and makes me want to jump for joy, how people deny God is beyond me.

But to get back to the point, this is actually a very powerful prophesy and it's intentions, I believe, were made to warn us of turning away from the worship of God and rather worshipping nature for her beauty and giving nature all the credit, sounds awfully familiar does it not? God has made Himself known, just enough though, for us to make an opinion based on our own God given free will to either accept or reject Him, there is no middle ground. We are either the good thief, or the thief who scoffed and everyone in the crowd watching the Truth be crucified falls into one of these two categories.

Please understand, I am not commenting about ToE or ID, I believe that God cannot be contained in a glass jar and has created "life" according to His power and majesty.

God bless.
 
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metherion

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Ah I get ya, so what role or involvement do you suppose God had or has in the universe?
God made the universe via the Big Bang. Every process since then has been maintained and controlled by God, according to the natural laws He put into place, and He doesn't/didn't need miracles to make life as we know it happen because He always sustains and controls everything. If not for Him, nothing would exist. But, to be directly responsible for life, He did not need to make everything out of nothing 6-10k years ago.

Metherion
 
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God made the universe via the Big Bang. Every process since then has been maintained and controlled by God, according to the natural laws He put into place, and He doesn't/didn't need miracles to make life as we know it happen because He always sustains and controls everything. If not for Him, nothing would exist. But, to be directly responsible for life, He did not need to make everything out of nothing 6-10k years ago.

Metherion

I understand and am fully satisfied with your response.

God bless you.
 
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L

LanceCohen

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I have not read all the 11 pages of words so far written, and so I may be repeating some things said earlier, and if so just ignore them. I will only address the first challenge here, and this is my response.

1.) Provide a testable hypothesis that calls into question descent with modification from common ancestors. (The theory of evolution)

Firstly, the onus of falsibility lies on those who made the hypothesis in the first place. That you do not have a testable way of falsifying your own hypothesis is sufficient grounds to consider it, at best, a weak hypothesis and certainly not a fact and even less a truth.

Secondly, I am unaware of any evidence that have demonstrated that natural selection is anything than just a convenient and acceptable explanation. To explain how antelopes become giraffes does not mean that such a thing in fact happened.

To make a analogy in geometry, if I know a point A somewhere in space and another point B also somewhere in space, but perhaps close to A, even very close, there is no reason nor justification to say or believe that there exists a line from A to B, just solely in the fact that A and B exists as such. To "predict" that there lie C in between a straight line between A and B, again does not in itself proves the straight line. But in paleontology, things are hardly as pinpoint precise as geometric singletons A, B and C, and you can almost make anything fit anything, and you only need to believe, eg the Piltsdown Man.

And thirdly I do not know - and I stand to be informed otherwise here - of any experiment that demonstrate how one species, say of some fruit fly, become another species, through several generations, with each modification in each successive generation identified and traced. For has anyone know of an artificial, or natural, species of anything created in the lab - or in the real world - through deliberate, or natural, mutation of every successive generation, and with each change or modification observed, and successful modification predicted, and the whole thing repeated, in laboratories anywhere? If not how is it a science at all?

And fourthly even if I accept - by faith as I cannot see nor measure - that natural selection do indeed occur over million and million of years, and species do indeed evolve into another - something I cannot see, but only bones that people say this and that about - that faith in itself however does not go on to compel you to believe that everything descended from just one root.

Natural selection per se do not say anything about the root or roots of species. Amphibians dont have to evolve from fishes, and fishes dont have to evolve from amoeba. So what is the evidence for even suggesting that all living things evolve from a single thing? There just can be some proto-amphibian, proto-reptile, etc, in the "beginning", from which, via natural selection, we see everything today.

And so even if evolutionists do not have a falsibility test, there is sufficient evidence, or more exactly a lack thereof, to dismiss the theory of evolution as science. It can remain a hypothesis, a weak one, albeit, but to put it forth as science is very damaging for development of true science and intellectual thoughts, as it stifles the foment and creation of alternative and perhaps truer knowledge of things, even as the obsolete notion of phlogiston crippled the advance of chemistry for a long long time.

And to add, even Alfred Russel Wallace, the co founder of natural selection with Darwin, have had reservations that evolution explains everything.

There are indeed some scientific facts - in the sense of observability, measureability, repeatibility, predictibility - here and there, arising from experimentations or observation, as motivated by notions of natural selection, of life, from the microscopic to the aggregates like society, but these facts are just that. They do not proof anything, even as all induction can never be proven. In other words the notion of natural selection has some value, but it is certainly not the explanation for everything. The theory of everything probably has a better shot at that than evolution.

And as an aside, fame, personal glory, rewards, public preeminence, career advancement, etc ought never to be the motivation for anyone seeking the truth, for if so, one immediately makes oneself corruptible and beholden to something other than the Truth itself.

And finally a word on science and religion, or more precisely science and the Christian God. Man can only observe things from his perspective, his small view of the small earth in the immense universe in the stars and in the sub atomic levels:the instances of things that be, here and there; but he has a mind that somehow compels him to see patterns and the need to put in order all these things he sees, and thus he makes induction. He can make further abduction, and that gives him some assurance that his big picture he induces has some validity, but he can never really be sure.

Knowledge however is not the sole monopoly of science and logic. God reveals truth too. And thus scientific truths, when they are true, can never be in conflict with revealed truths.

When there is a conflict, such as in the times of Galileo, and now with evolution, then one or the other or both is somehow not quiet true yet. And we know that God didnt make the Big Bang happened, if indeed this was the case, and just left "nature" to run its course. "Nature" is not so simply that. That is something science have yet to reckon.
 
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Sum1sGruj

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But, to be directly responsible for life, He did not need to make everything out of nothing 6-10k years ago.

Metherion

The genealogy of the Bible, Genesis, and numerous verses throughout the rest say otherwise. People are becoming so overwhelmed with ToE that they feel they have to dismiss these things as metaphors or fictional morals, but I see no reason why. What has caused this disruption of faith in these contexts?
Subjective evidence for a theory? Has blatant lies of ToE's solidity really taken over in such a way?

Ask any pro-evolutionist about a parrot or a bat. Ask them about the substantial evidence indicating that man and dinosaurs once lived in unison. Ask them what actually concludes the idea of DNA hierarchy. Ask them what dating techniques actually show instead of them ranting on about what a scientist concludes with it. Ask them what is in fact dated.
And you will be liberated from the ridiculous idea that Christians should conform to it in any fashion.
It's just theory, with the only thing rising being it's new found appeal.
 
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Greg1234

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I'm going to take a gamble and say that these cited papers, in full context, don't support whatever conclusion you're coming to. Especially since you're citing Lenski, who leads the E.coli long-term evolution experiment.

Lenski's ecoli experiment is on the verge of becoming another milestone for creationism. The results coming out there do not support long term Darwinian evolution (though it could have gone either way) and it may be seated one day next to the 80 year fruit fly experiment as one of the all time greats. To top it off, not only do you have degradation but also genetic engineering by that adaptation feature programmed in DNA governing enzyme adaptation.
 
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lucaspa

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Ah I get ya, so what role or involvement do you suppose God had or has in the universe?

Let's try these 2 quotes and see if you understand:
"But with regard to the material world, we can at least go so far as this -- we can perceive that events are brought about not by insulated interpositions of Divine power, exerted in each particular case, but by the establishment of general laws" Whewell: Bridgewater Treatise.

"The only distinct meaning of the word 'natural' is stated, fixed, or settled; since what is natural as much requires and presupposes an intelligent agent to render it so, i.e., to effect it continually or at stated times, as what is supernatural or miraculous does to effect it for once." Butler: Analogy of Revealed Religion.

You see for me, when it is claimed everything was created for Him and by Him and everything exists because of Him, this is literally true.
Did you notice that you don't have a how "created by Him"? How did God create? Did He create by zapping things into existence in their present form?

Or did He create the universe by the Big Bang, galaxies, stars, and planets by gravity, life by chemistry, and the diversity of life by evolution? God's Creation says it is the methods I described above.

Now you say there is no scientific evidence for God, well if you mean can science take God and put Him in a test tube (Lord forgive me) then we are in agreeance. But i feel that God has made Himself known through His creation (regardless of how He created ) and this is where i vehemently disagree with any Christian who believes otherwise.
There is nothing unambiguous in His creation that allows us to definitively say "God did this". This is what we believe, but we can't state it by science.

Let us examine what St Paul has to say on the matter -

[bless and do not curse]18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [a]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.

Paul is speaking of pagans in Rome who worshipped different physical beasts. He is arguing for the Jewish position that God has no physical shape.

However, notice that Paul is very scant on specifics. What part of nature is it where God "is clearly seen"? What part of what "has been made" unambiguously shows God's existence?

Now this actually melts my heart and makes me want to jump for joy, how people deny God is beyond me.
Really? It's easy for me to understand. People don't 1) have personal experience of God themselves and 2) don't trust the personal experiences of others.

But I really can't point to a particular part of nature and am able to unequivocally state "the evidence is clear to everyone that God did this". Can you?

But to get back to the point, this is actually a very powerful prophesy and it's intentions, I believe, were made to warn us of turning away from the worship of God and rather worshipping nature for her beauty and giving nature all the credit, sounds awfully familiar does it not?
Actually, it was supposed to warn against joining any of the pagan religions in Rome that had false idols.

Please understand, I am not commenting about ToE or ID, I believe that God cannot be contained in a glass jar and has created "life" according to His power and majesty.
So you point to abiogenesis as the specific example? What if I were to tell you we know of at least one way to get living cells from non-living chemicals by simple chemistry?

You see, you are making god-of-the-gaps. How do you feel when the gap is plugged?
 
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lucaspa

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1.) Provide a testable hypothesis that calls into question descent with
modification from common ancestors. (The theory of evolution)

The reward for meeting this challenge is scientific fame and job offers.
Many people have come up with testable hypotheses that have called into question parts of neo-Darwinism. Punk Eek, endosymbiosis, evo-devo, and phylogenetic analysis have all done this. What you meant to say was provide a supported, unfalsified hypothesis.

Note the age of the earth is not itself a part of the theory of evolution, but an old earth is predicted by the theory of evolution.
Actually, it is not. Old earth was established before Darwin ever set foot on the Beagle. Recent experiments on natural selection indicate it can operate 10,000x faster than observed in the fossil record.
Although he failed to make any correct predictions or explain many phenomena and has been thouroughly debunked on geological and other levels(as well as having been shown to be unbiblical) Morris's revival of a long dead timeline from the 7th Day Adventists in "The Genesis Flood: The Biblical Record and its Implications" gained him acclaim and
sold very well. Biologists of all types are seeking this prize.
Actually, biologists are not seeking Morris' prize. Remember, Morris published outside the scientific literature.

3.) Do #2, while providing a hypothesis that honors the Christian God as well as or better than the theory of evolution or alternatively satisfies todays religious anti-evolutionists.
That's a strawman, since Darwin thought evolution honored the Christian God. Remember, more than half of all evolutionary biologists have been/are Christians.

In either of these cases, you would attain not only the top peir of scientific stardom and rewards, but would also eclipse Origen, Augustine, Luther andpossibly even Paul as the preeminent theologian and church leader.
You wouldn't. The trouble with anti-evolutionists is that their ideas are not acceptable to Christianity.
 
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lucaspa

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Information cannot be created through random processes because language is an arbitrary convention and laws of physics are incapable of making arbitrary decision.
But natural selection and chemistry are not "random processes". The selection part of natural selection is the exact opposite of random.

So what we have are unintelligent processes that do create information. I can walk you thru the mathematics if you are interested.


So if God is not the one who created life, then where did the genetic code come from?
Chemistry nad evolution. Follow this paper and it will lay out the steps to the genetic code and directed protein synthesis without direct intervention by God:
1. AM Poole, DC Jeffares, D Penney, The path from the RNA world. J. Molecular Evolution 46: 1-17, 1998. Describes Darwinian step-by-step for evolution from RNA molecules to cells with directed protein synthesis. All intermediate steps are useful. http://awcmee.massey.ac.nz/people/dpenny/pdf/Poole_et_al_1998.pdf

Information is created from the top down, not the bottom up.
Not always. However, if you think about it, you are describing Darwinian selection as you learn language, grammar and spelling, not to mention writing these sentences:
First you get an idea in your head, then you translate that idea into our agreed convention of English with all the proper grammar and syntax, then you type it out on your computer.

A conscious thinking intelligence is required to create information.
Not really. All you need are more possibilities than the number of possibilities actually used.

As you should well know, proving a negative cannot be done.
Of course it can. All the time. For instance, wouldn't you say this negative has been proved: the earth is not flat?

Using deductive logic, that is what we do: prove negatives.

The best we can do is say that all related research refutes the idea that language increases naturally, and thus common decent is also refuted.
That's an argument from analogy, and here the analogy fails.

There is zero evidence that language can occur or develop naturally.
Not true. There is considerable evidence of the development of language in other species.

The whole idea of evolution being random is completely absurd.
True, but not for the reason you state. It's because no evolutionist has ever said evolution is random. That is a creationist canard.

Random means there was no plan behind it,
That's not the meaning.

the Bible clearly indicates that God had already planned out major events, such as the coming of Christ, before he even created the universe.
That's not as clear as you seem to think. It's a postdiction made by Christians not in the oldest texts. However, God could indeed plan for an incarnation into the physical form of the sapient species, but leave it to evolution to physically design that sapient species.

As it happens, evolution is contingent, not random. That, however, poses no problem for Christianity. We as Christians are comfortable with the idea that God can use the contingencies of human history to accomplish His purpose. So why can't God use the contingencies of evolutionary history?

It does matter how smart and power you are you still have to plan for something in order to be certain it happens.
Not really. For instance, you can be sure that if you set natural selection going and exploring the Library of Mendel, sooner or later natural selection is going to get to the wing that codes for sapient species capable of communicating with God. The physical form doesn't, of course, have to be a modified ape.
 
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