Does Free Will Exist?

[HAPMinistries]

How does "this decision" come about?

If you read the rest of the post you quoted, I went in full detail.

 

[jonmichael818]

I never said anyone doesn't have free will to chose according to their own desires. You have total control to your own desires.
I'm referring to the free will to chose, on their own, the spiritual things of God. That was taken away from us since Adam and Eve.

It called SIN

Do you believe god is omniscient?

 

[jonmichael818]

What we decide as the best decision, we do.

What makes you decide which decision is the best decision to make?

The cause and effects of life are under our power to choose,...

What does "our power" mean, and where does it come from?

 

[jonmichael818]

When I saw the light bulb above my head.


Ding !

Where does the "ding" come from?

 

[ThePresbyteers]

Do you believe god is omniscient?

I believe it as fast as I can.

Nothing physical is faster than light. Get in a booth that travels at the speed of light and you'll travel around the world seven times each second. Image how many different places you can visit in just one second. Tachyon is far faster that that. You'll visit to Pluto and back in less than one second. There other facts that are far faster than tachyon. Whats the point of discussing things that fast? You might as well say you're at the end of the universe and back to Earth hundreds of times per second. It's called action and rest. When the pendulum reaches at the end of the swing, it turns back. At the point of reaching the end and turning back, it reaches to Zero. Zero is non-existent but when it swings back to 1, it pops back into existence. It disappeared for a time and reappeared millions per second. It's really being at two places at the same time. Forget time and space, God knew us before we were born.

I wonder if we've be here before or a reflection of something. I even have concerns of disappearing for a split second on December 21st, 2012 when the solar system reaches the end of the oval pendulum-like swing in our Galaxy. Flashforward might come true. Not sure of what the Twink of an Eye means.

But don't forget that it isn't God that waits to see what you do down the road of your life to see if you free willy chose Him on your own before He chooses you. The Southern Baptists got foreknowledge backwards.

Man still ain't the boss of God and never will be.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

Where does the "ding" come from?

blink !
Whatever powers us from the source of our thoughts.

Where does "Alive" come from?

Whats the meaning of "Living"?

It comes from the Living God.

It comes from the present.

always NOW

 

[HAPMinistries]

What makes you decide which decision is the best decision to make?

You do.
Maybe we have a loss on words, but if you want to respond with the most intelligent decision, the most emotional decision, or maybe you are a comedian, and choose the most sarcastic decision. Whichever decision is made, it is made by you. Thus your free will.

What does "our power" mean, and where does it come from?

The cause and effects of life are under our power to choose, or to choose to do nothing at all. This is our free will to do whatever we choose to do.

Our power of life, which come from living parents which regress back to God in the garden of Eden. Even there, Adam and Eve had a choice, and made a decision. Wasn't a good one, but was a decision.

With our power being regressed to God, God made this to be our decision. That said, scripture says:
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Here we read God has a will.
God expresses God's will for all men to be saved.
That said, God's will is not always accomplished.
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

What we are experiencing is God created us, gave us free will, and never imposed on it. Since God exists outside of time, space, and matter, God has seen the beginning and the end. Without ever touching free will, God has seen the steps, God did not overtake anyones free will. Just because God knew our end before our beginning, it does not mean that God created us predetermined, it simply means God sees time differently than us, and knows the outcome of our life from our own free will.

So, in the end, just because God has a point of view on time that sees the beginning from the end, it does not mean God 'created us that way', it means God sees the end result of our decisions of our free will. Or, simply, God created us, we create our outcome.

 

[jonmichael818]

blink !
Whatever powers us from the source of our thoughts.

How about our neural net, our genetic makeup and our environment.

 

[jonmichael818]

Our power of life, which come from living parents which regress back to God in the garden of Eden. Even there, Adam and Eve had a choice, and made a decision. Wasn't a good one, but was a decision.

Ok, but decisions have reasons right? What are our reasons for making a decision? Where do those reasons come from?
Its all cause and effect. They do not just come out of thin air do they?

What we are experiencing is God created us, gave us free will, and never imposed on it. Since God exists outside of time, space, and matter, God has seen the beginning and the end. Without ever touching free will, God has seen the steps, God did not overtake anyones free will. Just because God knew our end before our beginning, it does not mean that God created us predetermined, it simply means God sees time differently than us, and knows the outcome of our life from our own free will.

So, in the end, just because God has a point of view on time that sees the beginning from the end, it does not mean God 'created us that way', it means God sees the end result of our decisions of our free will. Or, simply, God created us, we create our outcome.

Do you believe god is omniscient?

 

[jonmichael818]

I believe it as fast as I can.

Nothing physical is faster than light. Get in a booth that travels at the speed of light and you'll travel around the world seven times each second. Image how many different places you can visit in just one second. Tachyon is far faster that that. You'll visit to Pluto and back in less than one second. There other facts that are far faster than tachyon. Whats the point of discussing things that fast? You might as well say you're at the end of the universe and back to Earth hundreds of times per second. It's called action and rest. When the pendulum reaches at the end of the swing, it turns back. At the point of reaching the end and turning back, it reaches to Zero. Zero is non-existent but when it swings back to 1, it pops back into existence. It disappeared for a time and reappeared millions per second. It's really being at two places at the same time. Forget time and space, God knew us before we were born.

I wonder if we've be here before or a reflection of something. I even have concerns of disappearing for a split second on December 21st, 2012 when the solar system reaches the end of the oval pendulum-like swing in our Galaxy. Flashforward might come true. Not sure of what the Twink of an Eye means.

But don't forget that it isn't God that waits to see what you do down the road of your life to see if you free willy chose Him on your own before He chooses you. The Southern Baptists got foreknowledge backwards.

Man still ain't the boss of God and never will be.

First of all there is no evidence that tachyons exist.

Secondly, consider this:

If God is omniscient, then he knows every series of events that will take place. If any single event happens any different than that which he knew, than he is not omniscient. If God is omniscient, then every single event that he knows is going to happen(which also means every event) must by definition and by necessity take place. Because if they did not take place, then he is not omniscient. And since every event must take place just as he must know they will take place, this prevents any other agent from being able to deter from that which he knows will take place. Which means that free will would not exist.
So either God is omniscient and free will does not exist, or God is not omniscient and free will does exist.

 

[HAPMinistries]

Ok, but decisions have reasons right? What are our reasons for making a decision? Where do those reasons come from?
Its all cause and effect. They do not just come out of thin air do they?

I appreciate your questions because I never went too deep into this before, but this I answered in my first post.

Do you believe god is omniscient?

I can not give a direct yes or no to this, because I certainly believe God has unlimited knowledge, but I believe in dealing with our free will, since the decisions are not Gods, he questions the decisions made. God asked why multiple times.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[jonmichael818]

I appreciate your questions because I never went too deep into this before, but this I answered in my first post.

Ok, but any reason you give also has another reason or cause for it ad infinitum. As far as I can see there is no way around cause and effect. All decisions, choices and reasons in turn have reasons or causes for there their existence.

I can not give a direct yes or no to this.

Fair enough, but in that case, it seems impossible to state whether free will exists or not from your perspective.

 

[HAPMinistries]

Ok, but any reason you give also has another reason or cause for it ad infinitum. As far as I can see there is no way around cause and effect. All decisions, choices and reasons in turn have reasons or causes for there their existence.

I see no reason for a decision to be made outside of cause and effect.

Fair enough, but in that case, it seems impossible to state whether free will exists or not from your perspective.

If God knows the outcome, God has infinite knowledge.
But God asks 'why?', which means God does not know or understand the reasoning for the decision, even if God already knows the outcome.

This is a huge support for Free Will. Because if God knew why, then our will would not be free. Since God asks why, then that means the decision was not God's.

 

[jonmichael818]

I see no reason for a decision to be made outside of cause and effect.

Exactly, if it is not outside cause and effect, then there is no free will. It is simply an infinite series of causes and effects. Which is determinism.

If God knows the outcome, God has infinite knowledge.
But God asks 'why?', which means God does not know or understand the reasoning for the decision, even if God already knows the outcome.

This is a huge support for Free Will. Because if God knew why, then our will would not be free. Since God asks why, then that means the decision was not God's.

So then god is not omniscient in your view then, right?

 

[HAPMinistries]

Exactly, if it is not outside cause and effect, then there is no free will. It is simply an infinite series of causes and effects. Which is determinism.

Cause and effect only brings the need for a decision, it in no way means you do not have free will in making your decision.

So then god is not omniscient in your view then, right?

It is important to accept God for what God is, instead of making a loose generalization straw man overview of God, then attacking the straw man.

Even you should know that you can know something, and still not understand it. Therefore we have a whole rabbit hole of philosophical mumbo jumbo we can go through, but in essence, you made a very odd claim in your first statement here, and now you are reducing God to a generalization.

Just say what it is you think.

 

[jonmichael818]

Cause and effect only brings the need for a decision, it in no way means you do not have free will in making your decision.

A decision is the effect of other causes and effects, and once that decision is made it then turns into a cause for the next effect. Again all cause and effect no free will, just "dominos."

It is important to accept God for what God is, instead of making a loose generalization straw man overview of God, then attacking the straw man.

Even you should know that you can know something, and still not understand it. Therefore we have a whole rabbit hole of philosophical mumbo jumbo we can go through, but in essence, you made a very odd claim in your first statement here, and now you are reducing God to a generalization.

Just say what it is you think.

I simply asked if you believe god is omniscient. You first say you don't know; then you say, "God does not know or understand the reasoning for the decision." Which means that god is not omniscient.

I don't see any straw man argument on my behalf. I am simply trying to figure out what it is you believe.

I personally am an agnostic, and I do not believe in free will, I am a determinist. Though I cannot say with certainty that we do in fact live in a deterministic universe, because we simply do not know yet, but I can make a very strong case for determinism.

 

[HAPMinistries]

A decision is the effect of other causes and effects, and once that decision is made it then turns into a cause for the next effect. Again all cause and effect no free will, just "dominos."

I do not deny any of this except in cause and effect you have free will. You have free will to determine the next cause. Free Will is not free from making decisions, but is free to make decisions.

I simply asked if you believe god is omniscient. You first say you don't know;

I said I can not give a direct yes or no.
That means it is neither one, nor the other.

then you say, "God does not know or understand the reasoning for the decision." Which means that god is not omniscient.

Incorrect
God can know, but not understand, thus the need for the question 'why?' I don't want to really go down the rabbit hole of is 'understanding=knowing'.

One need be Socratic with their self for 5 minutes, and you will realize you truly do not understand a lot of what you would profess to know.

Here are 2 definitions of OMNISCIENT:

1: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge
Omniscient - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Would God be omniscient with #1, no.
Would God be omniscient with #2, yes.

It is too much of a straw to draw at, so it is best to accept God for what God is, Complete knowledge, but not complete understanding.

I personally am an agnostic, and I do not believe in free will, I am a determinist. Though I cannot say with certainty that we do in fact live in a deterministic universe, because we simply do not know yet, but I can make a very strong case for determinism.

So you are a baptist.
Just kidding.

 

[chris4243]

Free will exists and is a combination of chance and deterministic processes. Pseudorandomness may substitute for chance. If your idea of free will cannot be composed of chance and deterministic processes, then it does not exist.

 

[Ken-1122]

Jonmichael (quote)” I do not doubt that choices can be made, but the question is whether those choices are a result of "free will" or are results of cause and effect.”

(reply) I kinda think if we have a cause, we can choose via freewill which of the variety of effects this cause will have on our behavior.

(quote)” You say that choices are the result of how the brain works right? But we understand that the brain works through processes of cause and effect.”

(reply) Is this your personal opinion? Or is this an established theory. If the latter, can you provide some proof to back this up?

K

 

[jonmichael818]

I do not deny any of this except in cause and effect you have free will. You have free will to determine the next cause. Free Will is not free from making decisions, but is free to make decisions.

Free will is not what determines a decision or a next cause. Prior causes and effects produce the next cause. Any decision that is made is made as a direct result of your genetic makeup and environmental upbringing, there is no magical process that intervenes and makes the decision. Nature and Nurture are all there is that makes up an individual.

It is true that for any given situation a person has many options to choose from, but the ultimate decision is made based upon genetic predisposition and the experiences that the person has gone through that tells the person to act accordingly.

Every thought that goes through the persons mind is a series of causes and effects, which culminates in an action.

Please tell me how a person is free from prior causes and effects?

FREE WILL- freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.-Merriam Webster.com

I said I can not give a direct yes or no.
That means it is neither one, nor the other.

Right, which means you do not know. So how can you make a statement of certainty when you do not know?

Incorrect
God can know, but not understand, thus the need for the question 'why?' I don't want to really go down the rabbit hole of is 'understanding=knowing'.

KNOW-to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty...-Dictionary.com

How in the world can an omniscient god not understand something? This is a complete non sequitur.