Terms of union with Roman Catholics

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Hebrews 13, 17

Obey your leaders and be subject to them.
For they watch over you, as if to render an account of your
souls. So then, may they do this with joy, and not with grief.
Otherwise, it would not be as helpful to you.

Once more, Bishops are succesors of Apostles, we have to obey them, no monk is over a bishop.

Again I don't disagree with this. I don't agree with your point though. Perhaps its a phronema issue; you are not Orthodox so you are not understanding why I don't find these arguments convincing. I am not Catholic, so I don't except this kind of clericalism (I'd think this goes hand in hand with the Catholic views of the pope).

Interestingly, the word for "leaders" in Hebrews 13:17 is ἡγούμενος, hegoumenos, often rendered in English as "hegumen." From the beginning of monasticism in the Greek speaking world, "hegumen" was used as a title for the head of a monastery (abbot, or "hegumenia" for abbess). In the Orthodox context the term has always been able to refer to both clergy and monastic elders.
 
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Then I see really that EOs are less othodox than I imagine they were, Or perhaps I am just testifying that some orthodox of protestant background are more unlikely to join than real Eastern Christians:

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Antony in Tx

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Alonso,

I'm going to tell you something very similar to what I told Mag Max several days ago before you entered the fray. Your uncharitable, condescending, and scholastic/legalistic approach to this argument is really somewhere between insulting and laughable. If your intent is to convince EO's here that we are wrong, stupid, or misinformed then you are failing miserably. You need to remember that we, as a group, do not feel that we need to "come into communion with Rome". We are way too busy working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, and working toward theosis knowing that we will never achieve perfection but need to try. We pray that you work out your salvation, too, and if asked how we think that is best done, we would tell you that if you were doing things the way they should be done, we believe that you would be looking pretty much like the Eastern Orthodox church. We know where the Church is, but we do not pretend to know where it is not. Juridical/shcolastic approaches to salvation are destined to fail, as they assume that all are alike. The truth is that no two are alike, and only God can know the heart and soul of any man. I would suggest to you that humility, asceticism, prayer, and charity are much more paths to communion with God than are righteous lecturing and proselytizing. I can assure you that I doubt that I will ever see a scorecard in Christ's hand on the judgment day that totals up how many "heathens" I "set straight". Bottom line. We don't really care what you think, because we believe what we believe, and that's not going to change.

:liturgy:
 
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Then I see really that EOs are less othodox than I imagine they were. Or perhaps I am just testifying that some orthodox of protestant background are more unlikely to join than real Eastern Christians:

I'm not sure why you believe your standards are what our Orthodoxy should be measured by. I find this greatly insulting.

As a cradle Greek Orthodox Christian of the Ecumenical Patriarchate (GOArch), who has had 16 years of Catholic school (the last four are an undergraduate degree in theology and philosophy from a Jesuit institution), and is not in favor of apostasy to the schismatic and heretical position of Rome, I say the following: You have had no intention of actually considering our position. You proselytize. You try to enforce the hegemony of the pope. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Despite my better judgment, I've tried to be exceptionally gracious toward Catholicism. You haven't allowed any of us Orthodox to do this, as to Rome we are not but targets for papalism.

There is no possibility of union as Rome would had it. There is only Rome returning to Orthodoxy. This is the only Orthodox position. If you can't understand this, there cannot be dialogue.

I'm out.

Please forgive my offenses.
 
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Etsi

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orthodox of protestant background are more unlikely to join than real Eastern Christians
Excuse me?! I'd hate to know how you treat converts in your own parish. You sound like a very bigoted person.

I'm a convert and that makes me a REAL Eastern Christian, TYVM!
 
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cobweb

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Excuse me?! I'd hate to know how you treat converts in your own parish. You sound like a very bigoted person.

I'm a convert and that makes me a REAL Eastern Christian, TYVM!


That's ok, Brigid. You are in good company.

Apparently all of the monks on Mt. Athos and quite a few of our Saints aren't really Orthodox either.
 
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Etsi

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That's ok, Brigid. You are in good company.

Apparently all of the monks on Mt. Athos and quite a few of our Saints aren't really Orthodox either.
I guess the majority of the Early Church weren't Orthodox either. Oh, sorry, that just got my goat. With an attitude like that, I would say that I'm glad I chose EO over RC...however, thankfully in my life, I know MANY RC'ers that aren't such bigots.
 
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Etsi

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Dear Orthodox friends - I am sure that Alonso has meant no offense and if nothing else, we all must admire his deep dedication to his faith. There are not too many posters who are willing to spend so much time and effort defending their beliefs.
Yes, he was defending his beliefs, but I also DO belief he intended his offense.
 
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Dear Orthodox friends - I am sure that Alonso has meant no offense and if nothing else, we all must admire his deep dedication to his faith. There are not too many posters who are willing to spend so much time and effort defending their beliefs.

Fair enough. But, if I was to say that I measure the catholicity of Catholics by how eager they are to abandon the Pope, not only is that nonsensical to Catholics, but it is in no way charitable. I doubt it would be met with approval in Catholic circles.

Again my apologies for any offense on my part. I wasn't nice in my last post; it does reflect my beliefs on the matter, but I certainly could have presented them better.
 
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Joshua G.

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Once again:

1 Corinthians 12, 28

And indeed, God has established a certain order in the Church: first Apostles, second Prophets, third Teachers, next miracle-workers, and then the grace of healing, of helping others, of governing, of different kinds of languages, and of the interpretation of words.

Monks are as much as Teachers. Bishops are APOSTLES. No monk is over Bishop. Apostles are over Prophets. Do You see?
There's a Catholic monk I once met. I think I would heed his voice (even as a Catholic) before... say... former Bishop Mahony.

Don't take my tidbit here too far. I would agree with you that we are to follow our bishops. But they CAN err. This has been attested to since the beginning of the Church, even with the Bishop of Rome. I am pretty sure even Catholics recognize this. They just have the ex Cathedra loophole which means basically that he is always right... as long as he is right. ;)
 
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Antony in Tx

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Dear Orthodox friends - I am sure that Alonso has meant no offense and if nothing else, we all should admire his deep dedication to his faith. There are not too many posters who are willing to spend so much time and effort defending their beliefs.

Basil,

It is also time for you to be called out for what you are. I reviewed your stats and what threads you have started/participated in. In reviewing your activity, it is clear that your claim to be non-denominational rings rather hollow. Almost every thread/comment by you has to do with Rome and why everybody needs to get with Rome, what the Pope is up to, what would happen if people decided to follow the Pope...in other words you appear to be a rabidly papalist ecumunicist. Please stop hiding behind your supposed non-partisanship when it is clear from your activity elsewhere that you have no intention of understanding Orthodoxy but rather wish to call people to bow down to Roman dominance. This is almost more repugnant than someone who is openly bigoted.

Forgive me if I offend.
 
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RobNJ

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Basil,

It is also time for you to be called out for what you are. I reviewed your stats and what threads you have started/participated in. In reviewing your activity, it is clear that your claim to be non-denominational rings rather hollow. Almost every thread/comment by you has to do with Rome and why everybody needs to get with Rome, what the Pope is up to, what would happen if people decided to follow the Pope...in other words you appear to be a rabidly papalist ecumunicist. Please stop hiding behind your supposed non-partisanship when it is clear from your activity elsewhere that you have no intention of understanding Orthodoxy but rather wish to call people to bow down to Roman dominance. This is almost more repugnant than someone who is openly bigoted.

Forgive me if I offend.


QFT!
 
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Dalibor

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Dear Orthodox friends - I am sure that Alonso has meant no offense and if nothing else, we all should admire his deep dedication to his faith. There are not too many posters who are willing to spend so much time and effort defending their beliefs.

Romans 10:2 "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge". Being persistent in heresy is not a virtue.

Anyway I don't see why should Orthodox fret so much about Union with Rome. We have fullness of faith, our church is inhabited by Holy Spirit and has grace from God all which Catholic church lacks. We don't need them, they need us. We don't have to compromise on anything. Our duty is only to confess the truth and "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!".
 
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Montalban

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Part 1 of 2



Once again, the capacity to forgive sins in the name of the Lord that Saint Peter receives as well as the others, is not refered to the keys.

Lets read the verses:

From Matthew gospel we read:

{16:19} And I will
give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever
you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And
whatever you shall release on earth shall be released, even in
heaven.”

{18:18} Amen I say to you,
whatever you will have bound on earth, shall be bound also
in heaven, and whatever you will have released on earth,
shall be released also in heaven.

To bind and to release are then in the Gospel of Saint John as to forgive sins:

John 20,23

{20:23} Those whose
sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and those
whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

Thus:

to bind = to retain
to release = to forgive

However I wouldn’t say that the capacity of binding and releasing is limited just to the capacity to forgive sins, but also reaches the ordering of the matters of the life of the church, but by now I am only refering that capacity to the absolution of the Sacrament of confesion.


However, the matter of the keys is more related to another verse of the Gospel of John:

John 21, 15 - 19

{21:15} Then, when they had
dined, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do
you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord,
you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my
lambs.” {21:16} He said to him again: “Simon, son of John,
do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that
I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” {21:17} He
said to him a third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love
me?” Peter was very grieved that he had asked him a third
time, “Do you love me?” And so he said to him: “Lord, you
know all things. You know that I love you.” He said to him,
“Feed my sheep. {21:18} Amen, amen, I say to you, when
you were younger, you girded yourself and walked wherever
you wanted. But when you are older, you will extend your
hands, and another shall gird you and lead you where you do
not want to go.” {21:19} Now he said this to signify by what
kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said
this, he said to him, “Follow me.”

In this moment, the Lord before going back to the Father is leaving his sheep and the lambs to Peter, the one who loves Him MORE than the others. There the Lord is giving the Keys to Saint Peter.

We have to differentiate the use of the auxiliary words “will” and “shall”. The word “will” is used for something that is going to happen not yet but in a future moment, and the word “shall” is used for something that is going to happen from that very moment and henceforth. So when the Lord Says to Saint Peter:

And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…

Those keys were going to be given in a future moment, not yet, that future moment came after the resurrection of the Lord and just before his ascension.



The key word of this passage is:

Acts 15, 7

And after a great contention had taken place, Peter rose up
and said to them: “Noble brothers, you know that, in recent
days, God has chosen from among us, by my mouth,
Gentiles to hear the word of the Gospel and to believe.

Peter speaks and the contention is over. It is not that everybody was silent, but that the contention ended with his words.

After Paul and Barnabas spoke of how the Holy Spirit acts among gentiles, James just introduces some clauses which were not part of the main issue of the Synod:

Acts 15, 19 – 20

Because of this, I judge that those who were converted to God from
among the Gentiles are not to be disturbed, {15:20} but
instead that we write to them, that they should keep
themselves from the defilement of idols, and from fornication,
and from whatever has been suffocated, and from blood.

The main issue of the synod was circumcision, no blood, no idols, no fornication. but circumcision:

Acts 15, 1

{15:1} And certain ones, descending from Judea,
were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised
according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.

The issue of the synod ended when Peter spoke.



Yes, I agree, All the Apostles in communion. And no one apostle defeated the authority of Saint Peter. Even Saint Paul presented himself as the one that had the responsibility among gentiles as the same as Peter had it among the jews. Paul recognizes that Peter was the first directing the Church of the apostles before he arrived. And he validates his own ministry as blessed by James, Peter and John.

So Saint Paul sees Peter as the principal among apostles and himself as blessed by Peter in his own ministry.



Yes, Saint Peter was dobleplaying, he was trying to make Jewish Christians to feel that they haven’t broke the teachings of the law by joining the Lord’s church, and he was welcoming the gentiles to the church making them to feel that they were accepted as they were in the church of the Lord. Somehow Peter was trying to keep the flock as a single flock of black sheep and white sheep. Paul was calling to Peter to end that distinction.

Jesus isn't saying Peter loves him (Jesus) more than these (other people), its an expression of zeal on the part of Peter's.

And the keys were already distributed, so I don't get the 'point'

The capacity to forgive sins is given to all the Apostles
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. (John 20:22,23)

The issue of the Synod DID NOT END when Peter spoke. I already pointed this out. Paul still spoke. If the issue had ended then his agreement is totally superfluous.

Further I also noted that James said "It is MY decision"
 
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Montalban

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Part 2 of 2
Yes, Peter couldn’t feed the flock every moment in every place but he had the responsibility to give direction to the life of the church.
There are thus many shepherds. Not one.
Even a pope notes this…
“…though He has delegated the care of His sheep to many shepherds, yet He has not Himself abandoned the guardianship of His beloved flock.”
Leo the Great “Sermon III”. (On His Birthday, III: Delivered on the Anniversary of His Elevation to the Pontificate, Chapter II)

I really see much more evidence that Peter was the Leader of the Apostles than evidence of equality.

Peter is the only one who the Lord changes his name
If this is true, how's it signify overlordship?
Peter is the only one that the Lord refers as the one who love him the most.
That's not true. Have you heard of John?
Peter is solidified as Rock by the Lord in order for him to confirm the rest of the believers.
That's not exclusive to Peter either.
All the Apostles are stone…
Ephesians 2: 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Peter is the only one who walks in the water, though he fails, the other apostles were in the ship.
So what?
Peter is the only apostle that the Sacred Scripture reveals that hosts in his home to the Lord.
What about the tax-collector?
Peter receives the firsts gentiles into the Church. Cornelius and his family.
So what?
The shadow of Peter heals the sick.
So what?
Peter performs the first miracle after Pentecost.
So what?

Etc.

All this is 'significant' because you already believe in the Papacy
 
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