What is preventing God from healing more people today?

[Strong in Him]

The key word being IF. However I'll concede the point that God can provide grace to those weakened by illness, although I'm sure He'd prefer they turn to him in faith for healing.

If you'd ever had M.E, you would not be making a distinction between illness and weakness. It is an illness which causes profound weakness; some people are bed, or wheelchair, bound with it.

And why does it have to be either/or?
Does God only give grace to endure the illness if the sick person won't, or can't, turn to him for healing? What about if you've prayed, believed, been anointed and prayed some more and still aren't healed? Doesn't he give grace then? Doesn't he then say "my power is made perfect in weakness"? Or does he was his hands of you and you have to get on with it by yourself?

 

[heymikey80]

So you think the two are interchangeable? Guess what? I beg to differ. I bet that's a huge surprise isn't it?

Strongs # 769 is astheneia - feebleness or frailty (the cause of which can be other things but where the context allows, sickness)

Strongs # 770 is astheneo - to be feeble, in any sense

Strongs #772 is asthenes -strengthless, weak

And disease?

Strong's is older, and it's not even a lexicon. We have a nice, big chunk of First Century Greek manuscripts which are surveyed to produce a lexicon of Greek by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker.

Y'see, I never said they were interchangeable. I appreciate that's what you read; but that's not what I said.

Disease and infirmity were not easily distinguished, and so both shared the same semantic footprint.

And as a result, for a First Century writer to say "weakness", did not automatically imply that he wasn't saying "disease" (or more clearly "sickness" by the modern definition). So to make a difference where there is none, that's not a valid method of argumentation.

 

[Crankitup]

Are you saying that we can never learn anything through sickness? It is not something that God can use to teach us patience and dependency on him? That we are entitled to spend every day moaning against God until he heals us - at which time we can rejoice, serve him and be a "proper" witness again?

If so, you're wrong.

And what would it say about our faith anyway if we were to say to people, "God is always with you, even in the bad times, and will never let you go", and they replied, "well you didn't show us his love during your recent bad time. You complained and fretted about him."

Who said anything about moaning, fretting or complaining against God? I've said it many times already, I would never blame God if I wasn't healed. The fault would lie with me.

Maybe you should go to an intensive care unit, talk with families who turn up to visit their loved ones every day, with little sign of improvement ....

Been there done that sis. Once was for my father, who died in an ICU in 2004 from Idiopathic Pulonary Fibrosis. A very traumatising experience I have to say.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying though. Sure a sickness can be a trying experience. The point is what James tells us our response to a trial should be (rejoicing) as opposed to what we should do when we are sick, (have the elders pray the prayer of faith, anointing us with oil with us being fully expectant of healing).

 

[Jazmyn]

Luke was a doctor (Colossians 4:14), there's nothing wrong with healthcare.

 

[Crankitup]

And disease?

Strong's is older, and it's not even a lexicon. We have a nice, big chunk of First Century Greek manuscripts which are surveyed to produce a lexicon of Greek by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker.

Y'see, I never said they were interchangeable. I appreciate that's what you read; but that's not what I said.

I apologise. I was reading into your statements to mean they were interchangeable. You said they were interrelated and not easily distinguishable. Not sure how far away that is from what I interpreted your statements to be though.

And as a result, for a First Century writer to say "weakness", did not automatically imply that he wasn't saying "disease" (or more clearly "sickness" by the modern definition).

Nor did it automatically imply the reverse. I notice you skipped over the Romans 8:26 example BTW.

 

[Crankitup]

Luke was a doctor (Colossians 4:14), there's nothing wrong with healthcare.

Didn't see anyone suggest anything to the contrary but good point nonetheless.

 

[heymikey80]

I apologise. I was reading into your statements to mean they were interchangeable. You said they were interrelated and not easily distinguishable. Not sure how far away that is from what I interpreted your statements to be though.

I appreciate the apology. The problem would be in the approach then, wouldn't it? It would need some passage that explicitly denied illness or disease from being glorifying to God. Failing that, there must be other ways of establishing your position. I'm not in principle opposed, I just need something that's more valid than the argument so far extended.

Nor did it automatically imply the reverse. I notice you skipped over the Romans 8:26 example BTW.

You think the Spirit can't help people who don't know how to say what they need to say, through disease and not non-illness infirmity?

In point of fact the word is inclusive of infirmity through disease. And for me in that case the argument would need something more explicitly exclusive of disease or illness to support it through Scripture.

 

[Jazmyn]

So you think the two are interchangeable? Guess what? I beg to differ. I bet that's a huge surprise isn't it?

Strongs # 769 is astheneia - feebleness or frailty (the cause of which can be other things but where the context allows, sickness)

Strongs # 770 is astheneo - to be feeble, in any sense

Strongs #772 is asthenes -strengthless, weak

asthenés = from a + sthenoo = (literally) without strength
It is used interchangably for spiritual and physical sickness/weakness.

The places in the bible it is used for physical sickness are listed below,

asthenē = without strength, weak
"'They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'" (Matthew 25:44)

astheneia (from asthenés) = weakness, frailty
"When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it.'" (John 11:4)

astheneian (from asthenés) = weakness, frailty
"As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you." (Galatians 4:13)

astheneias (from asthenés) = weakness, frailty
"When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, "Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.'" (Luke 13:12)

astheneis = without strength, weak
"and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick." (Luke 9:2)
"Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'" (Luke 10:9)
"As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by." (Acts 5:15)
"Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed." (Acts 5:16)
"That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep." (1 Corinthians 11:30)

asthenēs = without strength, weak
"I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'" (Matthew 25:43)

asthenous = without strength, weak
"If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed," (Acts 4:9)

ēsthenēsen (from asthenés) = to be weak, feeble
"For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill." (Philippians 2:26)

 

[Crankitup]

You think the Spirit can't help people who don't know how to say what they need to say, through disease and not non-illness infirmity?

I'll repeat. Romans 8:26 says, "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities." The context makes it clear that it is not speaking of sicknesses but rather not knowing what to pray for. Our finite minds here are an infirmity, or an inadequacy.

In point of fact the word is inclusive of infirmity through disease. And for me in that case the argument would need something more explicitly exclusive of disease or illness to support it through Scripture.

I think we can shortcut this though by looking closely at two verses of scripture. In the following verses, 'infirmity' or 'illness' would be a shocking mistranslation of astheneia.

I Cor 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. God isn't sick so this word has to be weakness and so far as I'm aware, every English translation renders it as such. Likewise in 2 Cor 13:4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you. Jesus wasn't crucified through sickness.

Earlier in the passage Paul lists those things that produce weaknesses. Shipwrecks, prisons, persecutions from enemies, and stripes. Not one mention of sickness.

The KJV and NKJV which I normally like, wrongly translate astheneia in 2 Cor 12:9 as 'infirmities'. The ESV and Darby get it right by translating it as weaknesses (IMO).

I appreciate your reverence for BAGD but I much prefer Trenchard & Thayer because Trenchard lists all the cognates helping us get to the essence of the meaning of a word. This is even before we start discussing Wescott and Hort and those so-called "earlier and better manuscripts".

 

[Crankitup]

asthenés = from a + sthenoo = (literally) without strength
It is used interchangably for spiritual and physical sickness/weakness.

The places in the bible it is used for physical sickness are listed below,

......

Actually it's closer to the truth to say ... "the places in SELECTED TRANSLATIONS of the bible where it is used for physical sickness are listed below".

 

[heymikey80]

I think we can shortcut this though by looking closely at two verses of scripture. In the following verses, 'infirmity' or 'illness' would be a shocking mistranslation of astheneia.

Um, these? Only one counter destroys the difference you're attempting to make. Here are six -- pretty much randomly chosen, if you'd like a dozen, I can get a dozen or more.

After this had happened, the rest of the people on the island who had diseases were coming to him and getting cured. Acts 28:9

But the news about Him was spreading even farther, and large crowds were gathering to hear Him and to be healed of their sicknesses. Lk 5:15

some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, Lk 8:2

And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all. Lk 13:11

'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' Mt 25:39

and those sent, having turned back to the house, found the ailing servant in health. Lk 7:10

 

[heymikey80]

I'll repeat. Romans 8:26 says, "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities." The context makes it clear that it is not speaking of sicknesses but rather not knowing what to pray for. Our finite minds here are an infirmity, or an inadequacy.

The context makes clear the Spirit can help no matter the cause.

I think we can shortcut this though by looking closely at two verses of scripture. In the following verses, 'infirmity' or 'illness' would be a shocking mistranslation of astheneia.

I Cor 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. God isn't sick so this word has to be weakness and so far as I'm aware, every English translation renders it as such. Likewise in 2 Cor 13:4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you. Jesus wasn't crucified through sickness.

Now, last I checked, I pointed out that sickness or illness could not be well-defined. So your point here doesn't really change my comprehension.

The point again being, the term doesn't exclude sickness. In fact it generally connotes sickness unless there's a large contextual determination against it.

Earlier in the passage Paul lists those things that produce weaknesses. Shipwrecks, prisons, persecutions from enemies, and stripes. Not one mention of sickness.

Paul doesn't list these as causes of weakness. "Are they servants of Christ?--I speak as if insane--I more so"

The KJV and NKJV which I normally like, wrongly translate astheneia in 2 Cor 12:9 as 'infirmities'. The ESV and Darby get it right by translating it as weaknesses (IMO).

Even Strong's points out "infirmities" is included in what the word means.

I appreciate your reverence for BAGD but I much prefer Trenchard & Thayer because Trenchard lists all the cognates helping us get to the essence of the meaning of a word. This is even before we start discussing Wescott and Hort and those so-called "earlier and better manuscripts".

Then use him, but don't expect huge agreement. B/A/G points out the prevailing Greek use of the term is about sickness.

 

[Crankitup]

Um, these? Only one counter destroys the difference you're attempting to make. Here are six -- pretty much randomly chosen, if you'd like a dozen, I can get a dozen or more.

So we're agreed then. I said way back in post # 59 that we're talking of feebleness or frailty (the cause of which can be other things but where the context allows, sickness).

So then we're left to argue instances where we might disagree whether the context does or does not allow a translation of 'sickness' aren't we? If you have a theological framework that dictates that God sometimes wishes you to be sick to serve some higher purpose and I have a contrary view we could argue about where the context allows such a translation until Jesus returns.

 

[Jazmyn]

Why would Paul end up staying with the Galatians because of weakness? Surely it was a physical illness, like a few of his companions occasionally got struck with on missionary trips (2 Timothy 4:20, Philippians 2:26-27).

 

[heymikey80]

So we're agreed then. I said way back in post # 59 that we're talking of feebleness or frailty (the cause of which can be other things but where the context allows, sickness).

So then we're left to argue instances where we might disagree whether the context does or does not allow a translation of 'sickness' aren't we? If you have a theological framework that dictates that God sometimes wishes you to be sick to serve some higher purpose and I have a contrary view we could argue about where the context allows such a translation until Jesus returns.

I think it's pretty clear that the verses and the contexts you've brought up so far do allow such a translation. There's nothing in the way of it.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Is doing all we can for one person without hurting the things we must and should be doing for ourselves and others, enough? What if that person does not get physically better? And why are they not getting physically better?
Do good true Christians need some people to be physically needy? Does the potential believer need needy people? Does the hardened sinner that will not change need needy people? Are we all needy and is there an advantage to being physically obviously needy?

A lack of faith. I would also have to say "a lack of love as well, love of God" Most Christians today are not brought to Christ by men of great faith, yet there are a some still here. Most Christians attach themselves very tightly to the world around them and they know this, for they find it hard to believe Christ, hear him, obey him and follow him. Our own bodies tell us to love what tastes good and enjoy it, but our spirit needs its food more so to grow. The food of the spirits of Christian's is Jesus. We need to obey and follow him alone; become close to our Father through him; to love God.

 

[JimfromOhio]

God does heal people (James 5:14-16), but healing is not guaranteed (Romans 8:23). Sickness is often the result of sin (John 5:14), but it is not always the result of sin (John 9:3). Satan is often the author of sickness (Job 2:7), but God is not the author of sickness (Acts 13:11).

The truth is also in the biblical fact that our God good causes and/or allow sickness and suffering. Job is a classic case of this truth, as well as Jesus Christ on the cross. God's purposes could be many and one of them could be for the good of the person enduring it, as in the case of both. Or it can be for punishment, as in Leviticus 26:15,16; Deuteronomy 28:61; Psalm 107:17,17; 2 Kings 5:27; Micah 6:13; Acts 5:4-6, 9-10; 13:11; and 1 Corinthians 11:30.

In Exodus 4: 11 God told Moses: "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" Stated that simply and directly, the idea sounds repulsive.

Would a loving God want anyone to suffer?

Why would he make a man dumb, deaf, or blind? Yet again and again in Scripture we see that there is far more to God's sovereign plan than our finite minds can comprehend.

God made the disabled and infirm. Babies are born every day with defects.

Many children grow up with congenital deformities. Some people have illnesses that last for years. While it is unexplainable according to our human logic, it is all God's plan and a gift of God's love.

Take me for an example, I was born deaf. God knew me before the conception. That's eternal. God created my inmost being and knitted me together in my mother's womb. This is what the LORD says— "He who made you, Who formed you in the womb, and Who will help you and that before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart. With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God. I was DEAF before I was born so God knew that while my body was being formed. Therefore, time should be eternal because God's time is eternal.

God uses circumstances to bring people to Christ, not just to heal them. God's main objective in this world is to save as many as possible from eternal death. People focus on healing is the best opportunity for all while God have other plans. No one knows what is God's specific will and plans for each believer.

 

[Laetetia]

Prayers for healing aren't always answered:
"Yet when they were ill, I put on sackcloth
and humbled myself with fasting.
When my prayers returned to me unanswered,
I went about mourning
as though for my friend or brother.
I bowed my head in grief
as though weeping for my mother." (Psalm 35:13-14)

 

[Crankitup]

Why would Paul end up staying with the Galatians because of weakness? Surely it was a physical illness, like a few of his companions occasionally got struck with on missionary trips (2 Timothy 4:20, Philippians 2:26-27).

Paul sent Epaphroditus back to Phillipi (1) because of Ephroditus' homesickness and (2) because of ..."he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick". He was sent back after he'd recovered, not before. A recovery from an illness so grave it seems, that without the merciful intervention of God, he would have died.

And yeah, Paul told Timothy in his letter to him that he'd left Trophimus sick in Miletus. It was so unusual he commented on it. But notice what he didn't say? - "I left him there with a sickness from which he'll never recover because it's God's will for him to be sick". Didn't see that anywhere.

The fact that front-line missionaries may sometimes have to deal with illness brought about through a combination of factors such as overwork, poor food or water supplies or demonic attack is a given. These cases also serve as a reminder that we might not always see immediate visible results in response to following the advice of James (5:14). For Trophimus Paul couldn't wait around to see it because he had work for the Kingdom to get on with that obviously couldn't wait.

With regard to Paul, he was stoned at left for dead at Lystra remember. I think we'd all be a bit weak after that little episode don't you think?

 

[Crankitup]

I think it's pretty clear that the verses and the contexts you've brought up so far do allow such a translation. There's nothing in the way of it.

In your opinion. Not in mine.