Hell

[kotwebck]

Well, no one knows what happens when we die, so I guess your point is moot.

I know ...

Why are you here, kotwebck, if not to taunt us?

I'm here to learn more, get more answers, and to tell everyone what I experience. I really did not mean to offend you or anyone, and I'm sorry if I did.

So we better get converting, right?

lol ... I would not even know where to start, I'm sure there is a way to do that, I just don't know how ... When you discover the real God and his Son, it woun't be by someone converting you, trust me, well for me anyway, not sure about other peoples experience though.

How deliciously cryptic.

Did not try to be cryptic, take what I said at face value, just like I said it. It is like that, once you realise.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I'm here to learn more, get more answers, and to tell everyone what I experience. I really did not mean to offend you or anyone, and I'm sorry if I did.

Well, you have a funny way of showing it.

lol ... I would not even know where to start, I'm sure there is a way to do that, I just don't know how ... When you discover the real God and his Son, it woun't be by someone converting you, trust me, well for me anyway, not sure about other peoples experience though.

Then what is the point of the Gospels? Of missionaries? Of Christianity?

Did not try to be cryptic, take what I said at face value, just like I said it. It is like that, once you realise.

"What's real is always invisible,"

"the truth is always hidden."

The statement "2 + 2 = 4" is neither false nor hidden.


"What's left and visible is always an distraction to keep you from what you really need to know."

So studying medicine, helping charities, and caring for the needy... all distractions, huh?

 

[kotwebck]

Then what is the point of the Gospels? Of missionaries? Of Christianity?

To warn everyone of the comming disaster, and telling then where to find refuge, warmth and real love.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

One of the best resources to look into when studying hell is negative Near Death Experiences (NDE's). I have just finished doing a study on hell by looking at people who have died and come back to life again. Some of these stories a quite harrowing. A Budist man came right to the edge of hell its self and saw his teacher and budda himself in hell. He said he saw a pit of fire where people were tormented. Others had experiences of hovering over hell before being returned to their bodies. Another man I know had an experience where he encountered demons before being pulled up and away from hell. A criminal that I spoke to had an experience where he went down into a place where he could feel heat on rocks, but did not make it as far as hell its self. Many people have also had visions of hell, and seen relatives burning in the flames. Personally it is all very frightening. But if you do a bit of looking around you will be supprised at what people say.

 

[Eudaimonist]

A Budist man came right to the edge of hell its self and saw his teacher and budda himself in hell.

What is the Buddhist man's name?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wiccan_Child]

To warn everyone of the comming disaster, and telling then where to find refuge, warmth and real love.

And where would they be found? If not in Christianity (the belief in salvation through Christ, etc), as your previous post suggests, then where?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

One of the best resources to look into when studying hell is negative Near Death Experiences (NDE's). I have just finished doing a study on hell by looking at people who have died and come back to life again. Some of these stories a quite harrowing. A Budist man came right to the edge of hell its self and saw his teacher and budda himself in hell. He said he saw a pit of fire where people were tormented.

What is the Buddhist man's name?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Seconded. Can you verify any part of that story?

Others had experiences of hovering over hell before being returned to their bodies. Another man I know had an experience where he encountered demons before being pulled up and away from hell. A criminal that I spoke to had an experience where he went down into a place where he could feel heat on rocks, but did not make it as far as hell its self.

Can you give us details about these men? Name, age, location? Time, duration, and location of NDE? Evidence or studies confirming their tales?

Many people have also had visions of hell, and seen relatives burning in the flames. Personally it is all very frightening. But if you do a bit of looking around you will be supprised at what people say.

Oh, trust me, I won't. I've heard people say all sorts of crazy things ('Time Cube' is one of my favourites).

What will surprise me is if any of these fanciful tales can be supported by the evidence (e.g., this 'man you know' being a real person).

 

[kotwebck]

And where would they be found? If not in Christianity (the belief in salvation through Christ, etc), as your previous post suggests, then where?

You seem to argue for the sake thereof ... lol

Off Topic:
I just noticed your nick is Wiccan_Child, you claim to be an Atheist and have a pentagram as an avatar logo? ... those three are in contradiction.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What is the Buddhist man's name?

Athet Pyan Shinthaw Paulu is the name of the Buddhist. As for Wiccan_Child's statments that I can not be trusted to tell the truth about "a person I know" he needs to be more trusting. People tell stories of hell all the time, personally I don't want to call them a lier. p.s. Christians are not permitted to lie so I don't understand why you are calling me a lier.

Eph 4:25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor

Besides all this who really wants to go around saying that they have visited hell. It is not really a very endearing quality, it is not going to give you any statis in a church or elsewhere. Some one who says I went to hell has been there.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Athet Pyan Shinthaw Paulu is the name of the Buddhist.

Thanks, I will check up on this.

As for Wiccan_Child's statments that I can not be trusted to tell the truth about "a person I know" he needs to be more trusting. People tell stories of hell all the time, personally I don't want to call them a lier. p.s. Christians are not permitted to lie so I don't understand why you are calling me a lier.

Christians are no more immune to fibbing than anyone else. Lying is something one should always keep in mind as a possibility. Perhaps you personally are being perfectly honest with us, but your sources could be lies (or honest misinterpretations).

Some one who says I went to hell has been there.

If someone said that they remembered a past life, does that mean that they had a past life? Let's say that it was an unpleasant past life (e.g., not Napolean or Cleopatra). Would that prove reincarnation correct?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Athet Pyan Shinthaw Paulu is the name of the Buddhist.

Thank you. Is this the man?

As for Wiccan_Child's statments that I can not be trusted to tell the truth about "a person I know" he needs to be more trusting.

Trust is earned, and you haven't earned mine.

People tell stories of hell all the time, personally I don't want to call them a lier. p.s. Christians are not permitted to lie so I don't understand why you are calling me a lier.

We never called you a liar. We're simply looking for verification of your tales.

Eph 4:25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor

I believe the point of Christianity is that everyone is a sinner, including Christians.

Besides all this who really wants to go around saying that they have visited hell. It is not really a very endearing quality, it is not going to give you any statis in a church or elsewhere. Some one who says I went to hell has been there.

Or rather, they think they've been there. Frankly, I'm not inclined to trust someone who's brain is failing...

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You seem to argue for the sake thereof ... lol

Nope: I'm just asking follow-up questions to see where you're coming from.

Off Topic:
I just noticed your nick is Wiccan_Child, you claim to be an Atheist and have a pentagram as an avatar logo? ... those three are in contradiction.

I was once Wiccan (hence the name and the avatar), and then I stopped. But even if I was always an atheist, I don't see a contradiction: for all you know, the name could be a reference to my Wiccan parents.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Thank you. Is this the man?

Yes that is the man.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I believe the point of Christianity is that everyone is a sinner, including Christians.

That is not a correct understanding of Christianity a Christian is not to sin at all. This does not mean a Christian can not sin by acident or willfully and not be forgiven. But a true Christian does not sin, at all, at any time. The Bible verse said do not lie. So I do not lie.

​

 

[Wiccan_Child]

That is not a correct understanding of Christianity a Christian is not to sin at all. This does not mean a Christian can not sin by acident or willfully and not be forgiven. But a true Christian does not sin, at all, at any time. The Bible verse said do not lie. So I do not lie.

Ah, True Christians™. What Biblical basis is there for saying that only real Christians are completely and utterly without sin? Ephesians 2:3 and Galatians 2:21 should provide food for thought.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Ah, True Christians™. What Biblical basis is there for saying that only real Christians are completely and utterly without sin? Ephesians 2:3 and Galatians 2:21 should provide food for thought.

I have had a look at the verses you quoted to get a better understanding of your theory.

Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

The best way to state my belief is that a true Christian will not seek to willfully sin. No Christian should be thinking on any given day how do I sin today and get a way with it. A Christian may sin due to stress, strain, or ignorance, and grace applies. Infact grace applies to anyway a person may sin, no sin is not covered by grace. Grace exists, i.e. a Christian can sin, however note:

Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Rom 6:13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.

Continual sinning on purpose results in spiritual death, and eventually hell, as this topic is about hell I might as well put it in.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It really worries me when I hear Christians joking about "If only you knew what God lets me get away with", "what God has forgiven me for" (in the present tense). Sure God will forgive but when sin becomes a life style it is shaky ground. I am not saying these people can not be saved but they do need to repent (turn around) Jas 5:19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back,
Jas 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[kotwebck]

That is not a correct understanding of Christianity a Christian is not to sin at all. This does not mean a Christian can not sin by acident or willfully and not be forgiven. But a true Christian does not sin, at all, at any time. The Bible verse said do not lie. So I do not lie.
​

That is not entirely correct, we (Christians) should not sin, but because we are human and are decendants of Adam whom picked the satan over God we do, because of this sin God send his Son (Jesus) to pay for our sins in full so that if we accept this payment we will not pay for the sins ourselfs (Payment is eternal death).

If you do not sin at all, you would not need Jesus, I am a sinner and I do need him.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I have had a look at the verses you quoted to get a better understanding of your theory.

Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

The best way to state my belief is that a true Christian will not seek to willfully sin. No Christian should be thinking on any given day how do I sin today and get a way with it. A Christian may sin due to stress, strain, or ignorance, and grace applies. Infact grace applies to anyway a person may sin, no sin is not covered by grace. Grace exists, i.e. a Christian can sin,

Agreed. Which is why it's strange to say that you never lie, just because you're a Christian.

however note:
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Rom 6:13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.

Continual sinning on purpose results in spiritual death, and eventually hell, as this topic is about hell I might as well put it in.

Lest we go further off-topic than we already are .

 

[dnihila]

Perhaps, but that's hardly an argument for theism, is it? We want to know what is, not what feels good. It's all very well and good pretending to the blind and infirm that there is some magical hereafter where all their dreams come true, but that doesn't tell us whether it actually exists.
Just keep your feet on the ground and don't fly high by making the religion ( the belief in the Creator ) like seeing superman flying with bags he bought from the supermarket. Religion is not the magical supernatural world because we as humans don't have these supernatural powers to recieve a message to guide us how to make salad with a magical stick.
Let's discuss what athiesm is:


You forget that these theories have to be thought up in the first place. Where do you think the Einsteinian model of spacetime came from?

I have never seen Einstein in person and I have never talk to him. Why do you want me to believe in anything he said. He is a human and humans make mistakes the same way they did when they made us believe that
Pluto is no longer a planet after decades in deception of trusting the sources of information which we took from humans who always make mistakes.
Scientists: Pluto not a planet - Space.com- msnbc.com
And we also don't forget their talent in writing the wrong prescription for patients and the medical mistakes they do in hospitals that cause us our lives.
How do you want me to believe in the unguranteed while you can't creat a new animal or a flower without counting on the original created one.
You blamed us for believing in the beautiful world that you yourselves have no clue about how to create a new Earth for humans. It is not about what you already found but it is about what you create.


I disagree. When I say I believe in something, I'm saying I think it exists, or I think it's true. You say you believe in angels, and God. Why?
Because my logic goes beyond what I see and what I feel. When I found this beautiful Earth works in harmoney without any human interfering to change the harmoney or to write their own notes, I knew that there is One Power to dominate it " The Orchestra has one leader not two".
And why do you think nature is the dominant power while it is the example we take for harmoney. When anything has the ultimate power, it isn't affected by weak powers.
Why can't you control the universe/ space/ other planets?
Why are planets different?
Why nature didn'r create anything new from the time we knew about it?
Why the harmoney still exist although we are more aware of the world around us and have tools to change the world by destroying it?
Why humans can't do anything good to nature unless they use the same harmoney the world is in?
Why when humans create something new they never build but they destroy? But they don't see the results untill the coming generations admit that their ancestors made a mistake.


I do not believe the first human was a statue of clay. I don't even believe there was a first human at all.
So, what are you then? For sure not the first nor the last.
And please don't tell me that humans are monkeys.
Because for centuries monkies are still monkies and scientists never record any developments in their nature to become humans.

.

To Be continued

 

[R3quiem]

I have never seen Einstein in person and I have never talk to him. Why do you want me to believe in anything he said. He is a human and humans make mistakes the same way they did when they made us believe that.

I don't know how this thread turned to this topic, but this comment can't be left unaddressed.

The theory of relativity proposed by Einstein no longer relies on Einstein "being correct", because it has been repetitively verified to be correct in practice, both during his life and well after. Einstein was wrong on other things, but this is one he got right.

If you have ever used a GPS (Global Positioning System), or used the services of a company that uses a GPS, you were using Einstein's equations, because when such satellites are in orbit, Einstein's equations concerning relativity and spacetime must be used, otherwise the communications and messages would not function accurately.

While there are still questions about Einstein's theories and how they can be reconciled with quantum mechanics, the practical aspects of his theories are true and necessary for much of our modern technology to function. It's not just some freaky equation that's never used in practice.