Charles Darwin to receive apology from the Church of England for rejecting evolution

AV1611VET

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One of the good things about science (which you view as a flaw) is that it changes its conclusions if evidence shows they're wrong.
Just out of curiosity, Marcus, and I want to see if you're willing to admit this:

Prior to it being marketed, did evidence show Thalidomide was safe?

Your answer will speak volumes.
 
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MarcusHill

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Just out of curiosity, Marcus, and I want to see if you're willing to admit this:

Prior to it being marketed, did evidence show Thalidomide was safe?

Your answer will speak volumes.

No. Part of the problem with Thalidomide was that it was not sufficiently tested prior to marketing - that's the very reason that the US wasn't affected, since the FDA wouldn't approve it without further tests. The problem was with insufficient legislative control of drug testing, a problem which (partly in reaction to the disastrous effects of Thalidomide) has since been alleviated. The problem wasn't misleading evidence, it was lack of evidence. So, to answer your question, the evidence didn't show it was safe - but it didn't show it was dangerous, either.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Whether I disagree or agree, it doesn't matter. All independent Baptist churches are autonomous.
Of course. Modern chemistry has to take the responsibility for a faulty theory disproven over two hundred years ago and never used since, but your ultra-elite fraction of a denomination's subsect is magically detached from all historical connections, ideological predecessors and heresies still very much alive today and in fact much larger than your own organization. Sure, AV, sure.

Science took the credit for it, science can take the blame for it.
Who took the credit for Phlogiston theory, again? It was never put to use, commercially or otherwise. It has been dead in the water for over 2 centuries now. A bunch of alchemists and mystics wrote books because they didn't know any better, later, the first chemists showed that they were wrong. The people who were wrong took the blame for it and, presumably, were eventually convinced by the evidence.
 
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Psudopod

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No. Part of the problem with Thalidomide was that it was not sufficiently tested prior to marketing - that's the very reason that the US wasn't affected, since the FDA wouldn't approve it without further tests. The problem was with insufficient legislative control of drug testing, a problem which (partly in reaction to the disastrous effects of Thalidomide) has since been alleviated. The problem wasn't misleading evidence, it was lack of evidence. So, to answer your question, the evidence didn't show it was safe - but it didn't show it was dangerous, either.

And there's no such thing as a drug without risk. Drugs that save lives at one doasge may kill at another. Drugs may react when taken together while being fine when taken seperately. A person may have an allergic response to a drug.

Thalidomide is "safe" now. It's still used. The difference is we have a better idea of the circumstances when it is not safe.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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According to atheistic science, death is necessary for improvement.
Whoever told you that didn't know the first thing about atheism or science. Death isn't necessary for "improvement", adaption is. That organisms failing to adapt usually die and eventually become extinct isn't the fault of science. Science describes what God implemented - according to you Christians (or is that "according to you independent fundamental baptists"?), God was the one who brought death into this world. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Him, but stop blaming science for creating death by taking pictures of it.

Hitler may have been operating under the tenets of creating a genetically superior race of people.
He definitely was, and if he had listened to scientists actually worth their salt instead of pangermanic new-agers and quacks in the vein of Mengele et al. , he would have been told that it would never work - another thing he had in common with Stalin.
 
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AV1611VET

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Of course. Modern chemistry has to take the responsibility for a faulty theory disproven over two hundred years ago and never used since, but your ultra-elite fraction of a denomination's subsect is magically detached from all historical connections, ideological predecessors and heresies still very much alive today and in fact much larger than your own organization. Sure, AV, sure.
Of course it does --- that's because God doesn't work on the same principle as "modern" chemistry works on, viz. trial and error --- God got it right the first time.
 
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Split Rock

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Of course it does --- that's because God doesn't work on the same principle as "modern" chemistry works on, viz. trial and error --- God got it right the first time.

LOL! Got it right the first time?? That's rich, AVET. Let's look at how God got it right:

1. His perfect Angelic creation, Lucifer turns against him. God in his forsight does nothing to not only prevent this, but allows Lucifer to take a third of all God's perfect angelic creations with him down the path of rebellion.

2. His perfect non-angelic creation , Adam, disobeys him and throws all of creation into chaos, allowing Lucifer to rule over the earth. Again, God does nothing to prevent this.

3. God sits around and twiddles his thumbs while Lucifer continues to run His creation as if Lucifer himself had created it. After a few thousand years, He send His son donwn to keep at least some of his children from failing through Sin into Hellfire. He then waits again before fixing the mess of His Creation that He should have prevented in the first palce.

Well Done, indeed :clap:
 
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AV1611VET

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Thalidomide is "safe" now.
Now being the operative word here. To use MrGoodBytes' term, "modern" Thalidomide is safer.

And why is it safer? The "ancient" Thalidomide was "tested" in the laboratory of the general public, who became the Mus laboratorous for the improvement of this "new" wonder drug.

As I have asked before (and I can't remember if I got an answer or not), how did the formula for this "not sufficiently tested" yet wonder drug get into the hands of the pharmaceutical companies in the first place?

In other words, how did it get from the clipboard to the pharmacy?

Did "insufficient legislative control" force its way into the laboratory and pry the formula from the hands of kicking and screaming scientists or, as I suspect, did the scientists release it as viable for commercial use?
 
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Split Rock

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Now being the operative word here. To use MrGoodBytes' term, "modern" Thalidomide is safer.

And why is it safer? The "ancient" Thalidomide was "tested" in the laboratory of the general public, who became the Mus laboratorous for the improvement of this "new" wonder drug.

As I have asked before (and I can't remember if I got an answer or not), how did the formula for this "not sufficiently tested yet" wonder drug get into the hands of the pharmaceutical companies in the first place?

In other words, how did it get from the clipboard to the pharmacy?

Did "insufficient legislative control" force its way into the laboratory and pry the formula from the hands of kicking and screaming scientists or, as I suspect, did the scientists release it as viable for commercial use?
Maybe this had more to do with marketing and the desire for profit than with some flaw in science?
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Of course it does --- that's because God doesn't work on the same principle as "modern" chemistry works on, viz. trial and error --- God got it right the first time.
No doubt.
Genesis 6:5-7 said:
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
 
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LOL! Got it right the first time?? That's rich, AVET. Let's look at how God got it right:

1. His perfect Angelic creation, Lucifer turns against him. God in his forsight does nothing to not only prevent this, but allows Lucifer to take a third of all God's perfect angelic creations with him down the path of rebellion.

2. His perfect non-angelic creation , Adam, disobeys him and throws all of creation into chaos, allowing Lucifer to rule over the earth. Again, God does nothing to prevent this.

3. God sits around and twiddles his thumbs while Lucifer continues to run His creation as if Lucifer himself had created it. After a few thousand years, He send His son donwn to keep at least some of his children from failing through Sin into Hellfire. He then waits again before fixing the mess of His Creation that He should have prevented in the first palce.

Well Done, indeed :clap:
This stuff didn't happen in Genesis 1, where God got it right. Like I said, I can build you the perfect car, but if you take it out and wreck it, it's not my fault.
 
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AV1611VET

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Maybe this had more to do with marketing and the desire for profit than with some flaw in science?
Well --- that's my question --- how did the formula get from R&D to Marketing?

Did big shots demand they hand over their clipboards? And, if so, who told the big shots there was a completed formula in the first place?
 
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Belk

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Now being the operative word here. To use MrGoodBytes' term, "modern" Thalidomide is safer.

And why is it safer? The "ancient" Thalidomide was "tested" in the laboratory of the general public, who became the Mus laboratorous for the improvement of this "new" wonder drug.

As I have asked before (and I can't remember if I got an answer or not), how did the formula for this "not sufficiently tested" yet wonder drug get into the hands of the pharmaceutical companies in the first place?

In other words, how did it get from the clipboard to the pharmacy?

Did "insufficient legislative control" force its way into the laboratory and pry the formula from the hands of kicking and screaming scientists or, as I suspect, did the scientists release it as viable for commercial use?

:confused:

Have you ever worked in a large corporation? What on earth makes you think the scientist had any say in the matter as opposed to say, some product development manager?

Oh, that's right, then you wouldn't be able to demonize a whole group of people you disagree with.
 
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Split Rock

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This stuff didn't happen in Genesis 1, where God got it right. Like I said, I can build you the perfect car, but if you take it out and wreck it, it's not my fault.

Oh, but Lucifer and Adam were a part of that Creation discussed in Genesis 1, AVET. So your analogy fails.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Now being the operative word here. To use MrGoodBytes' term, "modern" Thalidomide is safer.

And why is it safer? The "ancient" Thalidomide was "tested" in the laboratory of the general public, who became the Mus laboratorous for the improvement of this "new" wonder drug.

As I have asked before (and I can't remember if I got an answer or not), how did the formula for this "not sufficiently tested" yet wonder drug get into the hands of the pharmaceutical companies in the first place?

In other words, how did it get from the clipboard to the pharmacy?

Did "insufficient legislative control" force its way into the laboratory and pry the formula from the hands of kicking and screaming scientists or, as I suspect, did the scientists release it as viable for commercial use?
Of course they did, because there wasn't any law forcing them to conduct further tests. Careless? Maybe. As the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20.

(By the way, there is no "new" or "old" thalidomide. It's still the same drug, but of course it's forbidden to administer to pregnant women nowadays.)
 
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AV1611VET

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Oh, but Lucifer and Adam were a part of that Creation discussed in Genesis 1, AVET. So your analogy fails.
No, it doesn't. If I build the perfect car, and the perfect driver, and the perfect driver wrecks the car by going down a road he was clearly told not to go down, it's not the fault of the manufacturer.
 
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No, it doesn't. If I build the perfect car, and the perfect driver, and the perfect driver wrecks the car by going down a road he was clearly told not to go down, it's not the fault of the manufacturer.

Wouldn't a perfect car be able to go down any and every road?

Also, surely it's a "very good" car, not a "perfect" car (which might explain why it can't...)
 
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MrGoodBytes

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No, it doesn't. If I build the perfect car, and the perfect driver, and the perfect driver wrecks the car by going down a road he was clearly told not to go down, it's not the fault of the manufacturer.
If somebody wrecks a car, he is clearly not the perfect driver.
 
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Wouldn't a perfect car be able to go down any and every road?
Well, if I, for instance, built a perfect car with a perfect driver, and told the driver NEVER to get on Interstate 5, and he got on Interstate 5, then he just lost his perfection.
 
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