The upcoming Civil War

[ShammahBenJudah]

There are a good many problem issues on either side of the "charismatic divide". I'd like to offer a perception here that may both step on some toes and join some hands.

What follows is not a blanket definition of either side, but some areas of concern among us. There is much good news in the body of Christ today, but there are also some issues. Many of these issues aren't isolated to one camp, but I'll express them separately according to their predominance.

First, the charismatics.

There's been a whole lot of mental and emotional stuff going on "in Jesus name" that has nothing more to do with Him than the occasional use of His name. People get together, sing a bunch of songs and get excited about the promises of God...its all about what God's gonna do for ME.

If you change the subject, their services would be no different from an Avon convention. All the while, they point at the 'First Church of the Frozen Chosen' and mock them for having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof. In fact, one of their most empowering platforms is "Buck the establishment, its dead".

Emulating what they think is spirituality, they chant their mantras of "yabba-dabba-do" or some other randomly contrived phraseology and slap each other in the head as if to pass on new and dizzying heights of spiritual maturity...all done to the cheers of God's people.

There are areas of the church that have learned "everything there is to know about faith". Except that you can't use it to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, lusts of the eyes or the pride of life.

The real issue? Following Christ according to the flesh.

Now the 'Fundamental', Non-Charismatics.

The biggest thing that strikes me as a problem area is the overall attitude of antagonism. In fact, it is difficult even for the church to tell what it stands for because the voice of antagonism so overwhelms anything else it may have to say.

There is so much evil and so many wrongs, that the Church cannot and must not simply sit by quietly. The Church has a message of hope for the world, but that hope isn't well expressed by this constant rage against all things ungodly.

The problem is that this transcends the world's ungodliness and turns against their own brothers and sisters who don't share the same understanding of the scriptures. The entire focal point becomes one group's knowledge of what the scripture says versus another group's knowledge of what the scripture says.

Now I'm not talking about the true Church versus sects and cults. I'm talking about people who have believed the same Gospel and accepted the same Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

This aspect of the Church usually has fairly great knowledge of the Bible. They believe the Church can and should be having a positive effect as the salt of the earth. But in many cases, they rely so heavily on their knowledge as if giving sound and irrefutable proof for their position somehow equates to exercising the power of God.

It does not. In fact, much of this antagonism is the fruit of our anger over these issues. A little righteous anger is a good thing. But if we're relying on self's knowledge to fix these problems, then we're not walking in Christ and any righteousness about our anger would be of self and not Christ.

What it really boils down to is the same thing...following Christ according to the flesh.

The Real Solution

There's really only one solution.

Under the Rotunda of my home town's City Hall, there was an intricate, fleurice type design that comes to a focal point in the space of one floor tile beneath the central apex of the dome.

50 some people could stand together under the dome, but only one person could occupy that single spot right in the middle of it all. In a way, that's what the Church has become...a bunch of people standing somewhere close to the center, jostling each other for position, each trying to be the one standing in exactly the right place.

When we finally figure this out, it won't have anything to do with fighting the system or having some civil war in the Church. Instead of fighting for position, we need to realize that only Jesus can stand on that one central spot. Instead of fighting over Him, we can all enter into Him and each stand together in the one spot where none of us could quite get to on our own.

Singing kum-baya won't help, works won't do. We will find unity in Christ when we sell all that we are, all that we know and all that we have to Him and allow Him and His ways to work in and through us. And if that's not where we stand, then any talk of unity is just that...talk.

 

[Yekcidmij]

The Real Solution

There's really only one solution.

Under the Rotunda of my home town's City Hall, there was an intricate, fleurice type design that comes to a focal point in the space of one floor tile beneath the central apex of the dome.

50 some people could stand together under the dome, but only one person could occupy that single spot right in the middle of it all. In a way, that's what the Church has become...a bunch of people standing somewhere close to the center, jostling each other for position, each trying to be the one standing in exactly the right place.

When we finally figure this out, it won't have anything to do with fighting the system or having some civil war in the Church. Instead of fighting for position, we need to realize that only Jesus can stand on that one central spot. Instead of fighting over Him, we can all enter into Him and each stand together in the one spot where none of us could quite get to on our own.

Singing kum-baya won't help, works won't do. We will find unity in Christ when we sell all that we are, all that we know and all that we have to Him and allow Him and His ways to work in and through us. And if that's not where we stand, then any talk of unity is just that...talk.

Now.....


There's a plan!

 

[Tobias]

That must be it. After all, it couldn't be that I'm not going to waste time and effort (for what would be several posts long) when you have already declared previously that I will "twist scripture" and that I would "mistake them" to "mean what I hoped they said". Why should I bother? You already won't even consider it.

I take it my appology wasn't accepted then? Darn...

I was really hoping for something on this one. I even considered starting another thread to explore the "doctrine" you reffered to, in case other people have something to add that aren't looking this deep into this thead.

After dragging me through Christian Pharisees and Nazarite vows, are you sure you can't oblige me just one scripture to support your stance? Not even a little one??

 

[Tamara224]

Singing kum-baya won't help, works won't do. We will find unity in Christ when we sell all that we are, all that we know and all that we have to Him and allow Him and His ways to work in and through us. And if that's not where we stand, then any talk of unity is just that...talk.

 

[Tobias]

The Real Solution

There's really only one solution.

Under the Rotunda of my home town's City Hall, there was an intricate, fleurice type design that comes to a focal point in the space of one floor tile beneath the central apex of the dome.

50 some people could stand together under the dome, but only one person could occupy that single spot right in the middle of it all. In a way, that's what the Church has become...a bunch of people standing somewhere close to the center, jostling each other for position, each trying to be the one standing in exactly the right place.

When we finally figure this out, it won't have anything to do with fighting the system or having some civil war in the Church. Instead of fighting for position, we need to realize that only Jesus can stand on that one central spot. Instead of fighting over Him, we can all enter into Him and each stand together in the one spot where none of us could quite get to on our own.

Singing kum-baya won't help, works won't do. We will find unity in Christ when we sell all that we are, all that we know and all that we have to Him and allow Him and His ways to work in and through us. And if that's not where we stand, then any talk of unity is just that...talk.

Some good insights there, Shammah!


Perhaps where we go wrong though is when we see God as a historical figure rather than as an alive, active one. Many Christians have turned their focus on to Jesus as their favorite member of the Trinity; sometimes simply because He can't be confused with an Interfaith God very easily.

What we fail to comprehend (somewhere deeper than our intellects), is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One. On some levels we would prefer a Jesus walking the dusty roads of a Roman provence; to a Holy Spirit who is right here right now drawing us to Himself.

Your analogy works then if we consider unity of the Spirit as the goal. While we could otherwise sit around and argue about who and what we think Jesus is, the Holy Spirit is right here amoungst us to be reconed with. This kind of unity is something altogether different than unity of intellect.

 

[lismore]

1 Corinthians 1:12 NIV
What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas" still another, "I follow Christ."

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I was really hoping for something on this one. I even considered starting another thread to explore the "doctrine" you reffered to, in case other people have something to add that aren't looking this deep into this thead.

After dragging me through Christian Pharisees and Nazarite vows, are you sure you can't oblige me just one scripture to support your stance? Not even a little one??

I doubt you would read it. I'm up to six pages in only an hour and a half. If you want, you can download Paltalk for free. I have a mic and can explain it. If you really want to hear my explination, I'm on every night (and indeed right now).

my username: Yekcidmij
the room I'm always in: Kick Back Cafe Christianity


Let me know if I should keep an eye open for you. Or just come in the room, get on the mic and say "Jimmie" so I put down my xbox and come talk about the good stuff.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

ARMAGEDDON: = world-wide civil war.

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

Some good insights there, Shammah!


Perhaps where we go wrong though is when we see God as a historical figure rather than as an alive, active one. Many Christians have turned their focus on to Jesus as their favorite member of the Trinity; sometimes simply because He can't be confused with an Interfaith God very easily.

What we fail to comprehend (somewhere deeper than our intellects), is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One. On some levels we would prefer a Jesus walking the dusty roads of a Roman provence; to a Holy Spirit who is right here right now drawing us to Himself.

Your analogy works then if we consider unity of the Spirit as the goal. While we could otherwise sit around and argue about who and what we think Jesus is, the Holy Spirit is right here amoungst us to be reconed with. This kind of unity is something altogether different than unity of intellect.

Much of our perceptions of God are shaped by what we see and hear from others. So changing that can take a bit more time for some than others. I think the important thing is whether or not the person is actually seeking God as a living, loving entity who exists now and not at some infinite distance from us.

But the thing is...this thing that draws us into the unity of Christ is called our reasonable service in Romans 12:1. It isn't some mystic vision of the future that God has in mind for us some day. I believe it is His expectation that we walk in it each and every day.

The thing about intellectual unity is that if we're striving to achieve that...it ends up to be what we're doing...striving with one another. I believe intellectual unity can result from spiritual unity. But if we seek it any other way, it becomes works of the flesh.

If you stop and think about it, at any given moment in time, the entire Church is potentially only an instant away from perfect unity in Christ.

 

[churchlady]

If you stop and think about it, at any given moment in time, the entire Church is potentially only an instant away from perfect unity in Christ.

I love that thought!

 

[Tobias]

The thing about intellectual unity is that if we're striving to achieve that...it ends up to be what we're doing...striving with one another. I believe intellectual unity can result from spiritual unity. But if we seek it any other way, it becomes works of the flesh.

Any true encounter with God leaves us realizing just how little we actually know about Him; and how much He is the one in charge of our relationship with Him. Confidence and assurance about out theology seem to go out the window.

Yet one of the results of this kind of encounter is the ability to recognize others who also have had similar encounters with the Lord. So if we were simply to start off our intellectual discussions with an: "Oh, so He's touched you too?!", unity is acheived from the beginning. From that point intellectual diversity is not only welcome, but rather refreshing!

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

Any true encounter with God leaves us realizing just how little we actually know about Him; and how much He is the one in charge of our relationship with Him. Confidence and assurance about out theology seem to go out the window.

Yet one of the results of this kind of encounter is the ability to recognize others who also have had similar encounters with the Lord. So if we were simply to start off our intellectual discussions with an: "Oh, so He's touched you too?!", unity is acheived from the beginning. From that point intellectual diversity is not only welcome, but rather refreshing!

Yes! Exactly!! Where there is that unity, we put "demands' on the gifts of our understandings and revelation flows like a river!

 

[probinson]

I have believed for some time that a civil war is inevitable in the Church.

I have noticed an interesting trend, in all denominations, in all movements, in all sects of Christianity. There is a division occurring right now. In the past 3 years in particular, I've noticed that Christians from all different denominations and backgrounds are choosing one of 2 paths;

Path 1 - I must be doctrinally correct, and I must ram my doctrinal viewpoints down everyone else's throat, under the heading of "standing for Truth".

Path 2 - I must learn to Love my brothers and sisters in Christ, and accept the fact that they are not perfect, and neither am I, and we need the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us all to the Truth.

This is happening EVERYWHERE. My brother-in-law, who comes from a staunch denominational doctrinal stance is beginning to go down path 2. Quite a few of the people on this forum that I am all but diametrically opposed to doctrinally are the people I find myself associating with more, and quite a few of those that I agree with almost 100% doctrinally, I find myself actually opposed to.

This is the civil war I see coming, if it's not already here.

There's a whole lotta shaking going on!

 

[Tobias]

I doubt you would read it. I'm up to six pages in only an hour and a half. If you want, you can download Paltalk for free. I have a mic and can explain it. If you really want to hear my explination, I'm on every night (and indeed right now).

my username: Yekcidmij
the room I'm always in: Kick Back Cafe Christianity


Let me know if I should keep an eye open for you. Or just come in the room, get on the mic and say "Jimmie" so I put down my xbox and come talk about the good stuff.

I was busy, so I guess I missed your show. But you are probably right. I'm not too interested in a theory that takes that much theological ground work! Either the Bible actually says it, or it doesn't. If you can't provide a couple of simple scriptures as an example of where you're going with your train of thought, then you may very well be building one theology on top of another on top of another. I doubt the end result would be worth too much, unless of course each building block along the way is completely sound.

Personally, I use experience as a litmus test. We can believe the Bible; and we can believe the foundations built upon ithe Rock by the Apostles and Church leaders. But the true test is if we can see results in real life. For example, I can theorize from the Bible that God wants to heal ALL the sick, and back that up with numerous scripture verses; but if we never see that theory able to work in real life then we might just need to rethink things.

Also we need to take into account the testimony of saints to the contrary. In a World where God wants all sickness anhilated; why would some very godly saints be experiencing a relationship with God that helps them walk though their sickness? Why would He be using the illness to work patience and other godly traits in their lives, instead of guiding them to the nearest faith healer/teacher??

Experiencing the God of the Bible is the key, IMHO. From that experience, comes the overflow of the knowledge and character that other Christians value so highly.

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

I have believed for some time that a civil war is inevitable in the Church.

I have noticed an interesting trend, in all denominations, in all movements, in all sects of Christianity. There is a division occurring right now. In the past 3 years in particular, I've noticed that Christians from all different denominations and backgrounds are choosing one of 2 paths;

Path 1 - I must be doctrinally correct, and I must ram my doctrinal viewpoints down everyone else's throat, under the heading of "standing for Truth".

Path 2 - I must learn to Love my brothers and sisters in Christ, and accept the fact that they are not perfect, and neither am I, and we need the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us all to the Truth.

This is happening EVERYWHERE. My brother-in-law, who comes from a staunch denominational doctrinal stance is beginning to go down path 2. Quite a few of the people on this forum that I am all but diametrically opposed to doctrinally are the people I find myself associating with more, and quite a few of those that I agree with almost 100% doctrinally, I find myself actually opposed to.

This is the civil war I see coming, if it's not already here.

There's a whole lotta shaking going on!

Here's a thought. What if the conflict we're seeing isn't really Christian vs Christian, but Christian vs. Christ?

Remember Saul? If I can borrow a phrase from Francis Frangipane, "we all need to travel the road to DE-MASK-US."

And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." Acts 9:5-6

IDK, I see it in some areas, anyway.

 

[Tobias]

I have believed for some time that a civil war is inevitable in the Church.

I have noticed an interesting trend, in all denominations, in all movements, in all sects of Christianity. There is a division occurring right now. In the past 3 years in particular, I've noticed that Christians from all different denominations and backgrounds are choosing one of 2 paths;

Path 1 - I must be doctrinally correct, and I must ram my doctrinal viewpoints down everyone else's throat, under the heading of "standing for Truth".

Path 2 - I must learn to Love my brothers and sisters in Christ, and accept the fact that they are not perfect, and neither am I, and we need the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us all to the Truth.

This is happening EVERYWHERE. My brother-in-law, who comes from a staunch denominational doctrinal stance is beginning to go down path 2. Quite a few of the people on this forum that I am all but diametrically opposed to doctrinally are the people I find myself associating with more, and quite a few of those that I agree with almost 100% doctrinally, I find myself actually opposed to.

This is the civil war I see coming, if it's not already here.

There's a whole lotta shaking going on!

 

[Tobias]

Here's a thought. What if the conflict we're seeing isn't really Christian vs Christian, but Christian vs. Christ?

Remember Saul? If I can borrow a phrase from Francis Frangipane, "we all need to travel the road to DE-MASK-US."

And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." Acts 9:5-6

IDK, I see it in some areas, anyway.

Ouch!!!

That's both scary and humbling at the same time!


How about this: Remember where I said that Jesus = the Holy Spirit? And that by focusing on Jesus we tend to displace the relevance of God to some point back in history; while what we really need to do is realize that the Holy Spirit is the fulness of God right here right now... ?

How then do you imagine the spirit of anti-Christ would be revealed in this present day? Would it not be this spirit of anti-Holy Spirit that we see manifested in opposition to every move of God??

Think about it!

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

Ouch!!!

That's both scary and humbling at the same time!


How about this: Remember where I said that Jesus = the Holy Spirit? And that by focusing on Jesus we tend to displace the relevance of God to some point back in history; while what we really need to do is realize that the Holy Spirit is the fulness of God right here right now... ?

How then do you imagine the spirit of anti-Christ would be revealed in this present day? Would it not be this spirit of anti-Holy Spirit that we see manifested in opposition to every move of God??

Think about it!

Chuck Pierce was at our church earlier this year and part of his message was about recognizing the spirit of anti-christ. I really don't remember all of it, but he listed 5 progressive evidences of the spirit of anti-christ in the church.

While I'm sure they are somewhat subjective to some, I found myself in agreement with the conclusions he had made. I hope you'll forgive me because I don't remember all five. But one of them stands out in my recollection.

From Revelation 19:10, "... the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy."

The spirit of anti-christ will be violently opposed to the Spirit of prophecy.

The thing we may be seeing among Christians is a variation of responses to the call to "come out from among them and be holy". Some may be resisting Jesus' call to their hearts. The fruit of that resistance is demonstrated against other believers...just like Saul.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I was busy, so I guess I missed your show. But you are probably right. I'm not too interested in a theory that takes that much theological ground work! Either the Bible actually says it, or it doesn't.

It's not a show, just a chat room and talking on the mic is easier than typing it out, especially considering that you already declared I am twisting scripture and making it say what I think it says. Yea, don't you hate it when you have the story of Creation->Today to support your position? Me too!

If you want to actually talk about it, that's what I like doing most; talking about this stuff. So if you want to take me up on my offer feel free. The room is a charismatic/spirit filled/pentecostal type of room, so I'm not trying to set you up to be ganged up on by a bunch of buddies or anything. So come by and talk about it.

Paltalk (It's free)
My username: Yekcidmij (My actual name is Jimmie)
Room name: Kick Back Cafe Christianity

If you can't provide a couple of simple scriptures as an example of where you're going with your train of thought, then you may very well be building one theology on top of another on top of another. I doubt the end result would be worth too much, unless of course each building block along the way is completely sound.

Your fallacy is that you think less information = more likely to be true. Your other fallacy is jumping to conclusions. I'm not going to give you just a few scattered scriptures because first, that's a half-effort on my part and not very good form. Second, if I give you just a few and do less than my best, you will do what you have been itching to do now for several posts - declare your already-made conclusion that I am twisting scripture. I would end up having to go back and give it my full effort anyway.

Personally, I use experience as a litmus test.

THat's another fallacy. Personally, I don't use your experience as a litmus test. If you use expericence, then I also use experience and we can't even talk to each other about what's true. What's interesting is you start this whole thread wanting people to believe you because of your experience. Well, everyone has experience, so who are you to push your experience over theirs? You might object that you are filled by the Spirit. Well, so am I. So who are you to tell me that your experience is more valid?

If experience is the test for truth, how did you come to know that was true? (now experience = arguing in circles and question begging).

We can believe the Bible; and we can believe the foundations built upon ithe Rock by the Apostles and Church leaders. But the true test is if we can see results in real life. For example, I can theorize from the Bible that God wants to heal ALL the sick, and back that up with numerous scripture verses; but if we never see that theory able to work in real life then we might just need to rethink things.

Also we need to take into account the testimony of saints to the contrary. In a World where God wants all sickness anhilated; why would some very godly saints be experiencing a relationship with God that helps them walk though their sickness? Why would He be using the illness to work patience and other godly traits in their lives, instead of guiding them to the nearest faith healer/teacher??

Experiencing the God of the Bible is the key, IMHO. From that experience, comes the overflow of the knowledge and character that other Christians value so highly.

That's all great and has very little relevance to our discussion so far (I haven't been talking about faith healers; I've been talking about your proposed war against the body of Christ), but besides that, it's just your experience. So what? Why is your experience more valid than anyone else's?

By your last statement, your foundation seems to be not experience, but rather the God that has been revealed through His activity in history as recorded in the Bible. Now we actually agree, but you contradict you earlier statement that your experience is your litmus test. God seems to be your litmus test. Excellent. Mine too. Maybe we can work from there and appeal to what is already agreed on as foundational - the Spirits activity in history as recorded in the Bible.


If you want to talk about my scriptural support for the entire Church, all of Jesus's people, being indwelt and sealed by the Spirit, and about Jesus being the source of YHWH's Salvation that you must believe in (and no other source is needed to be believed in), come talk to me on paltalk.

 

[bluemarkus]

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