Scripture and origins ~ [open] thread for all. Bring snacks as we're running low...

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gluadys

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Robert Jastrow agrees with me on the tie to Big Bang, or rather, that connection is actually his idea, not mine. He's the physicist.

But when he interprets the Big Bang metaphysically, he is no longer speaking as a physicist but as a philosopher. While other physicists will agree with his physics (given supportive evidence), they may have different philosophies that lead to different metaphysical conclusions.

Just because a person works in science doesn't mean everything they say has scientific backing.

How many times does the BIble have to be more right for a longer period of time than science for it to have credibility?

Does the bible have to agree with modern science to be credible?

How about we go right to the nub of scriptural credibility. Is Daniel also about beauty of expression primarily, or did it predict events that have and will come true?

Daniel, like most apocalyptic writing, is about being faithful in times of persecution. Most of the events "predicted" in Daniel were occurring at the time it was written in the 2nd century BCE. The events from the life of Daniel and his companions were selected because they were types of the persecution faced by Jews refusing the Hellenizing agenda of the Seleucid monarchs, especially Antiochus Epiphanes: forced to each non-kosher food, to worship images and to pray to Greek deities, not to Yahweh. The anonymous author is encouraging the people to remain faithful in trust that God will protect them as he protected Daniel and his companions.

He describes the recent past and current political scene as if it had been predicted centuries earlier. It is a way of affirming his faith, and encouraging others to believe, that God is in control of events and will soon overcome the oppressor.
 
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HypnoToad

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Now the earth was formless and empty,
darkness was over the surface of the deep,
and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
(Genesis 1:2 NIV)

It's clear that Genesis 1 is talking about separate things here. If God had intended to say that the waters were formless and empty, would He not have said precisely that? Or if God had intended to say that the Spirit of God was hovering over the earth, would He not have said precisely that?
Yes, they are "different". Earth is the whole thing, and waters and the deep and land are all components.
 
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busterdog

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But when he interprets the Big Bang metaphysically, he is no longer speaking as a physicist but as a philosopher. While other physicists will agree with his physics (given supportive evidence), they may have different philosophies that lead to different metaphysical conclusions.

Just because a person works in science doesn't mean everything they say has scientific backing.

Gen. 1.1 as a literary form describes the same issues as the BB singularity. Jastrow agrees.


Does the bible have to agree with modern science to be credible?

Probably not. But, it is worth noting that it nailed a number of the biggest issues there are.



Daniel, like most apocalyptic writing, is about being faithful in times of persecution.

He also did a decent job of reporting in advance the rise and fall of Persian, Greek and Roman empires, as well as the appearance of the Messiah.
 
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busterdog

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THis may be a derail. Skip it if bored. This is like the Joe Montana Super Bowl of literary criticism, by Eric Auerbach.

Not only is the enormous and perhaps unparalleled sophistication of Genesis described, buy Auerbach, as major critic confirms for anyone who wants to hear it, that Genesis was intended to be taken literally. Its sophistication, granted, is not of the heroic epic type. Its goal are entirely distinct.

He does not deal with Gen. 1.1, but you can see how he breaks down the context and terms in which the story is framed to nail its intent and the voice behind it. It has similarities to Gen. 1, but obviously its a different story.

http://www.westmont.edu/~fisk/Articles/OdysseusScar.html


The genius of the Homeric style becomes even more apparent when it is compared with an equally ancient and equally epic style from a different world of forms. I shall attempt this comparison with the account of the sacrifice of Isaac, a homogeneous narrative produced by the so-called Elohist. The King James version translates the opening as follows (Genesis 22: 1): “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said to him, Abraham! and he said, Behold, here I am.” Even this opening startles us when we come to it from Homer. Where are the two speakers? We are not told. The reader, however, knows that they are not normally to be found together in one place on earth, that one of them, God, in order to speak to Abraham, must come from somewhere, must enter the earthly realm from some unknown heights or depths. Whence does he come, whence does he call to Abraham? We are not told. He does not come, like Zeus or Poseidon, from the Aethiopians,
where he has been enjoying a sacrificial feast. Nor are we told anything of his reasons for tempting Abraham so terribly. He has not, like Zeus, discussed them in set speeches with other gods gathered in council; nor have the deliberations in his own heart been presented to us; unexpected and mysterious, he enters the scene from some unknown height or depth and calls: Abraham! It will at once be said that this is to be explained by the particular concept of God which the Jews held and which was wholly different from that of the Greeks. True enough—but this constitutes no objection. For how is the Jewish concept of God to be explained? Even their earlier God of the desert was not fixed in form and content, and was alone; his lack of form, his lack of local habitation, his singleness, was in the end not only maintained but developed even further in competition with the comparatively far more manifest gods of the surrounding Near Eastern world. The concept of God held by the Jews is less a cause than a symptom of their manner of comprehending and representing things.

This becomes still clearer if we now turn to the other person in the dialogue, to Abraham. Where is he? We do not know. He says, indeed: Here I am—but the Hebrew word means only something like “behold me,” and in any case is not meant to indicate the actual place where Abraham is, but a moral position in respect to God, who has called to him—Here am I awaiting thy command. Where he is actually, whether in Beersheba or elsewhere, whether indoors or in the open air, is not stated; it does not interest the narrator, the reader is not informed; and what Abraham was doing when God called to him is left in the same obscurity. To realize the difference, consider Hermes’ visit to Calypso, for example, where command, journey, arrival and reception of the visitor, situation and occupation of the person visited, are set forth in many verses; and even on occasions when gods appear suddenly and briefly, whether to help one of their favorites or to deceive or destroy some mortal whom they hate, their bodily forms, and usually the manner of their coming and going, are given in detail. Here, however, God appears without bodily form (yet he “appears”), coming from some unspecified place—we only hear his voice, and that utters nothing but a name, a name without an adjective, without a descriptive epithet for the person spoken to, such as is the rule in every Homeric address; and of Abraham too nothing is made perceptible except the words in which he answers God: Hinne-ni, Behold me here—with which, to be sure, a most touching gesture expressive of obedience and readiness is suggested, but it is left to the reader to visualize it. Moreover the two speakers are not on the same level: if we conceive of Abraham in the foreground, where it might be possible to picture him as prostrate or kneeling or bowing with outspread arms or gazing upward, God is not there too: Abraham’s words and gestures are directed toward the depths of the picture or upward, but in any case the undetermined, dark place from which the voice comes to him is not in the foreground.

After this opening, God gives his command, and the story itself begins: everyone knows it; it unrolls with no episodes in a few independent sentences whose syntactical connection is of the most rudimentary sort. In this atmosphere it is unthinkable that an implement, a landscape through which the travelers passed, the servingmen, or the ass, should be described, that their origin or descent or material or appearance or usefulness should be set forth in terms of praise; they do not even admit an adjective: they are serving-men, ass, wood, and knife, and nothing else, without an epithet; they are there to serve the end which God has commanded; what in other respects they were, are, or will be, remains in darkness. A journey is made, because God has designated the place where the sacrifice is to be performed; but we are told nothing about the journey except that it took three days, and even that we are told in a mysterious way: Abraham and his followers rose “early in the morning” and “went unto” the place of which God had told him; on the third day he lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. That gesture is the only gesture, is indeed the only occurrence during the whole journey, of which we are told; and though its motivation lies in the fact that the place is elevated, its uniqueness still heightens the impression that the journey took place through a vacuum; it is as if, while he traveled on, Abraham had looked neither to the right nor to the left, had suppressed any sign of life in his followers and himself save only their footfalls.

Thus the journey is like a silent progress through the indeterminate and the contingent, a holding of the breath, a process which has no present, which is inserted, like a blank duration, between what has passed and what lies ahead, and which yet is measured: three days! Three such days positively demand the symbolic interpretation which they later received. They began “early in the morning.” But at what time on the third day did Abraham lift up his eyes and see his goal? The text says nothing on the subject. Obviously not “late in the evening,” for it seems that there was still time enough to climb the mountain and make the sacrifice. So “early in the morning” is given, not as an indication of time, but for the sake of its ethical significance; it is intended to express the resolution, the promptness, the punctual obedience of the sorely tried Abraham. Bitter to him is the early morning in which he saddles his ass, calls his serving-men and his son Isaac, and sets out; but he obeys, he walks on until the third day, then lifts up his eyes and sees the place. Whence he comes, we do not know, hut the goal is clearly stated: Jeruel in the land of Moriah. V/hat place this is meant to indicate is not clear—”Moriah” especially may be a later correction of some other word. But in any case the goal was given, and in any case it is a matter of some sacred spot which was to receive a particular consecration by being connected with Abraham's sacrifice. Just as little as “early in the morning” serves as a temporal indication does “Jeruel in the land of Moriah” serve as a geographical indication; and in both cases alike, the complementary indication is not given, for we know as little of the hour at which Abraham lifted up his eyes as we do of the place from which he set forth—Jeruel is significant not so much as the goal of an earthly journey, in its geographical relation to other places, as through its special election, through its relation to God, who designated it as the scene of the act, and therefore it must be named.

In the narrative itself, a third chief character appears: Isaac. While God and Abraham, the serving-men, the ass, and the implements are simply named, without mention of any qualities or any other sort of definition, Isaac once receives an appositive; God says, “Take Isaac, thine only son, whom thou lovest.” But this is not a characterization of Isaac as a person, apart from his relation to his father and apart from the story; he may be handsome or ugly, intelligent or stupid, tall or short, pleasant or unpleasant—we are not told. Only what we need to know about him as a personage in the action, here and now, is illuminated, so that it may become apparent how terrible Abraham’s temptation is, and that God is fully aware of it. By this example of the contrary, we see the significance of the descriptive adjectives and digressions of the Homeric poems; with their indications of the earlier and as it were absolute existence of the persons described, they prevent the reader from concentrating exclusively on a present crisis; even when the most terrible things are occurring, they prevent the establishment of an overwhelming suspense. But here, in the story of Abraham’s sacrifice, the overwhelming suspense is present; what Schiller makes the goal of the tragic poet—to rob us of our emotional freedom, to turn our intellectual and spiritual powers (Schiller says “our activity”) in one direction, to concentrate them there—is effected in this Biblical narrative, which certainly deserves the epithet epic.

We find the same contrast if we compare the two uses of direct discourse. The personages speak in the Bible story too; but their speech does not serve, as does speech in Homer, to manifest, to externalize thoughts—on the contrary, it serves to indicate thoughts which remain unexpressed. God gives his command in direct discourse, but he leaves his motives and his purpose unexpressed; Abraham, receiving the command, says nothing and does what he has been told to do. The conversation between Abraham and Isaac on the way to the place of sacrifice is only an interruption of the heavy silence and makes it all the more burdensome. The two of them, Isaac carrying the wood and Abraham with fire and a knife, “went together.” Hesitantly, Isaac ventures to ask about the ram, and Abraham gives the well-known answer. Then the text repeats: “So they went both of them together.” Everything remains unexpressed.

It would be difficult, then, to imagine styles more contrasted than those of these two equally ancient and equally epic texts. On the one hand, externalized, uniformly illuminated phenomena, at a definite time and in a definite place, connected together without lacunae in a perpetual foreground; thoughts and feeling completely expressed; events taking place in leisurely fashion and with very little of suspense. On the other hand, the externalization of only so much of the phenomena as is necessary for the purpose of the narrative, all else left in obscurity; the decisive points of the narrative alone are emphasized, what lies between is nonexistent; time and place are undefined and call for interpretation; thoughts and feeling remain unexpressed, are only suggested by the silence and the fragmentary speeches; the whole, permeated with the most unrelieved suspense and directed toward a single goal (and to that extent far more of a unity), remains mysterious and “fraught with background.”

I will discuss this term in some detail, lest it be misunderstood. I said above that the Homeric style was “of the foreground” because, despite much going back and forth, it yet causes what is momentarily being narrated to give the impression that it is the only present, pure and without perspective. A consideration of the Elohistic text teaches us that our term is capable of a broader and deeper application. It shows that even the separate personages can be represented as possessing “background”; God is always so represented in the Bible, for he is not comprehensible in his presence, as is Zeus; it is always only “something” of him that appears, he always extends into depths. But even the human beings in the Biblical stories have greater depths of time, fate, and consciousness than do the human beings in Homer; although they are nearly always caught up in an event engaging all their faculties, they are not so entirely immersed in its present that they do not remain continually conscious of what has happened to them earlier and elsewhere; their thoughts and feelings have more layers, are more entangled. Abraham’s actions are explained not only by what is happening to him at the moment, nor yet only by his character (as Achilles’ actions by his courage and his pride, and Odysseus’ by his versatility and foresightedness), but by his previous history; he remembers, he is constantly conscious of, what God has promised him and what God has already accomplished for him—his soul is torn between desperate rebellion and hopeful expectation; his silent obedience is multilayered, has background. Such a problematic psychological situation as this is impossible for any of the Homeric heroes, whose destiny is clearly defined and who wake every morning as if it were the first day of their lives: their emotions, though strong, are simple and find expression instantly.

Fr
 
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busterdog

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How fraught with background, in comparison, are characters like Saul and David! How entangled and stratified are such human relations as those between David and Absalom, between David and Joab! Any such “background” quality of the psychological situation as that which the story of Absalom’s death and its sequel (II Samuel 18 and 19, by the so-called Jahvist) rather suggests than expresses, is unthinkable in Homer. Here we are confronted not merely with the psychological processes of characters whose depth of background is veritably abysmal, but with a purely geographical background too. For David is absent from the battlefield; but the influence of his will and his feelings continues to operate, they affect even Joab in his rebellion and disregard for the consequences of his actions; in the magnificent scene with the two messengers, both the physical and psychological background is fully manifest, though the latter is never expressed. With this, compare, for example, how Achilles, who sends Patroclus first to scout and then into battle, loses almost all “presentness so long as he is not physically present. But the most important thing is the “multilayeredness” of the individual character; this is hardly to be met with in Homer, or at most in the form of a conscious hesitation between two possible courses of action; otherwise, in Homer, the complexity of the psychological life is shown only in the succession and alternation of emotions; whereas the Jewish writers are able to express the simultaneous existence of various layers of consciousness and the conflict between them.

The Homeric poems, then, though their intellectual, linguistic, and above all syntactical culture appears to be so much more highly developed, are yet comparatively simple in their picture of human beings; and no less so in their relation to the real life which they describe in general. Delight in physical existence is everything to them, and their highest aim is to make that delight perceptible to us. Between battles and passions, adventures and perils, they show us hunts, banquets, palaces and shepherds’ cots, athletic contests and washing days—in order that we may see the heroes in their ordinary life, and seeing them so, may take pleasure in their manner of enjoying their savory present, a present which sends strong roots down into social usages, landscape, and daily life. And thus they bewitch us and ingratiate themselves to us until we live with them in the reality of their lives; so long as we are reading or hearing the poems, it does not matter whether we know that all this is only legend, “make-believe.” The oft-repeated reproach that Homer is a liar takes nothing from his effectiveness, he does not need to base his story on historical reality, his reality is powerful enough in itself; it ensnares us, weaving its web around us, and that suffices him. And this “real” world into which we are lured, exists for itself, contains nothing but itself; the Homeric poems conceal nothing, they contain no teaching and no secret second meaning. Homer can be analyzed, as we have essayed to do here, but he cannot be interpreted. Later allegorizing trends have tried their arts of interpretation upon him, but to no avail. He resists any such treatment; the interpretations are forced and foreign, they do not crystallize into a unified doctrine. The general considerations which occasionally occur (in our episode, for example, v. 360: that in misfortune men age quickly) reveal a calm acceptance of the basic facts of human existence, but with no compulsion to brood over them, still less any passionate impulse either to rebel against them or to embrace them in an ecstasy of submission.

It is all very different in the Biblical stories. Their aim is not to bewitch the senses, and if nevertheless they produce lively sensory effects, it is only because the moral, religious, and psychological phenomena which are their sole concern are made concrete in the sensible matter of life. But their religious intent involves an absolute claim to historical truth. The story of Abraham and Isaac is not better established than the story of Odysseus, Penelope, and Euryclea; both are legendary. But the Biblical narrator, the Elohist, had to believe in the objective truth of the story of Abraham’s sacrifice—the existence of the sacred ordinances of life rested upon the truth of this and similar stories. He had to believe in it passionately; or else (as many rationalistic interpreters believed and perhaps still believe) he had to be a conscious liar—no harmless liar like Homer, who lied to give pleasure, but a political liar with a definite end in view, lying in the interest of a claim to absolute authority.

To me, the rationalistic interpretation seems psychologically absurd; but even if we take it into consideration, the relation of the Elohist to the truth of his story still remains a far more passionate and definite one than is Homer’s relation. The Biblical narrator was obliged to write exactly what his belief in the truth of the tradition (or, from the rationalistic standpoint, his interest in the truth of it) demanded of him—in either case, his freedom in creative or representative imagination was severely limited; his activity was perforce reduced to composing an effective version of the pious tradition. What he produced, then, was not primarily oriented toward “realism” (if he succeeded in being realistic, it was merely a means, not an end); it was oriented toward truth. Woe to the man who did not believe it! One can perfectly well entertain historical doubts on the subject of the Trojan War or of Odysseus’ wanderings, and still, when reading Homer, feel precisely the effects he sought to produce; but without believing in Abraham’s sacrifice, it is impossible to put the narrative of it to the use for which it was written. Indeed, we must go even further. The Bible’s claim to truth is not only far more urgent than Homer’s, it is tyrannical—it excludes all other claims. The world of the Scripture stories is not satisfied with claiming to be a historically true reality—it insists that it is the only real world, is destined for autocracy. All other scenes, issues, and ordinances have no right to appear independently of it, and it is promised that all of them, the history of all mankind, will be given their due place within its frame, will be subordinated to it. The Scripture stories do not, like Homer’s, court our favor, they do not flatter us that they may please us and enchant us—they seek to subject us, and if we refuse to be subjected we are rebels.

Let no one object that this goes too far, that not the stories, but the religious doctrine, raises the claim to absolute authority; because the stories are not, like Homer’s, simply narrated “reality.” Doctrine and promise are incarnate in them and inseparable from them; for that very reason they are fraught with “background” and mysterious, containing a second, concealed meaning. In the story of Isaac, it is not only God’s intervention at the beginning and the end, but even the factual and psychological elements which come between, that are mysterious, merely touched upon, fraught with background; and therefore they require subtle investigation and interpretation, they demand them. Since so much in the story is dark and incomplete, and since the reader knows that God is a hidden God, his effort to interpret it constantly finds something new to feed upon. Doctrine and the search for enlightenment are inextricably connected with the physical side of the narrative—the latter being more than simple “reality”; indeed they are in constant danger of losing their own reality, as very soon happened when interpretation reached such proportions that the real vanished.

If the text of the Biblical narrative, then, is so greatly in need of interpretation on the basis of its own content, its claim to absolute authority forces it still further in the same direction. Far from seeking, like Homer, merely to make us forget our own reality for a few hours, it seeks to overcome our reality: we are to fit our own life into its world, feel ourselves to be elements in its structure of universal history. This becomes increasingly difficult the further our historical environment is removed from that of the Biblical books; and if these nevertheless maintain their claim to absolute authority, it is inevitable that they themselves be adapted through interpretative transformation. This was for a long time comparatively easy; as late as the European Middle Ages it was possible to represent Biblical events as ordinary phenomena of contemporary life, the methods of interpretation themselves forming the basis for such a treatment. But when, through too great a change in environment and through the awakening of a critical consciousness, this becomes impossible, the Biblical claim to absolute authority is jeopardized; the method of interpretation is scorned and rejected, the Biblical stories become ancient legends, and the doctrine they had contained, now dissevered from them, becomes a disembodied image.

As a result of this claim to absolute authority, the method of interpretation spread to traditions other than the Jewish. The Homeric poems present a definite complex of events whose boundaries in space and time are clearly delimited; before it, beside it, and after it, other complexes of events, which do not depend upon it, can be conceived without conflict and without difficulty. The Old Testament, on the other hand, presents universal history: it begins with the beginning of time, with the creation of the world, and will end with the Last Days, the fulfilling of the Covenant, with which the world will come to an end. Everything else that happens in the world can only be conceived as an element in this sequence; into it everything that is known about the world, or at least everything that touches upon the history of the Jews, must be fitted as an ingredient of the divine plan; and as this too became possible only by interpreting the new material as it poured in, the need for interpretation reaches out beyond the original Jewish-Israelitish realm of reality—for example to Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, and Roman history; interpretation in a determined direction becomes a general method of comprehending reality; the new and strange world which now comes into view and which, in the form in which it presents itself, proves to be wholly unutilizable within the Jewish religious frame, must be so interpreted that it can find a place there. But this process nearly always also reacts upon the frame, which requires enlarging and modifying. The most striking piece of interpretation of this sort occurred in the first century of the Christian era, in consequence of Paul’s mission to the Gentiles: Paul and the Church Fathers reinterpreted the entire Jewish tradition as a succession of figures prognosticating the appearance of Christ, and assigned the Roman Empire its proper place in the divine plan of salvation. Thus while, on the one hand, the reality of the Old Testament presents itself as complete truth with a claim to sole authority, on the other hand that very claim forces it to a constant interpretative change in its own content; for millennia it undergoes an incessant and active development with the life of man in Europe.

...

You are witnessing genius. What a writer!
 
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busterdog

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The claim of the Old Testament stories to represent universal history, their insistent relation—a relation constantly redefined by conflicts—to a single and hidden God, who yet shows himself and who guides universal history by promise and exaction, gives these stories an entirely different perspective from any the Homeric poems can possess. As a composition, the Old Testament is incomparably less unified than the Homeric poems, it is more obviously pieced together—but the various components all belong to one concept of universal history and its interpretation. If certain elements survived which did not immediately fit in, interpretation took care of them; and so the reader is at every moment aware of the universal religio-historical perspective which gives the individual stories their general meaning and purpose. The greater the separateness and horizontal disconnection of the stories and groups of stories in relation to one another, compared with the Iliad and the Odyssey, the stronger is their general vertical connection, which holds them all together and which is entirely lacking in Homer. Each of the great figures of the Old Testament, from Adam to the prophets, embodies a moment of this vertical connection. God chose and formed these men to the end of embody ing his essence and will—yet choice and formation do not coincide, for the latter proceeds gradually, historically, during the earthly life of him upon whom the choice has fallen. How the process is accomplished, what terrible trials such a formation inflicts, can be seen from our story of Abraham’s sacrifice. Herein lies the reason why the great figures of the Old Testament are so much more fully developed, so much more fraught with their own biographical past, so much more distinct as individuals, than are the Homeric heroes. Achilles and Odysseus are splendidly described in many well-ordered words, epithets cling to them, their emotions are constantly displayed in their words and deeds—but they have no development, and their life-histories are clearly set forth once and for all. So little are the Homeric heroes presented as developing or having developed, that most of them—Nestor, Agamemnon, Achilles—appear to be of an age fixed from the very first. Even Odysseus, in whose case the long lapse of time and the many events which occurred offer so much opportunity for biographical development, shows almost nothing of it. Odysseus on his return is exactly the same as he was when he left Ithaca two decades earlier. But what a road, what a fate, lie between the Jacob who cheated his father out of his blessing and the old man whose favorite son has been torn to pieces by a wild beast!—between David the harp player, persecuted by his lord’s jealousy, and the old king, surrounded by violent intrigues, whom Abishag the Shunnamite warmed in his bed, and he knew her not! The old man, of whom we know how he has become what he is is more of an individual than the young man; for it is only during the course of an eventful life that men are differentiated into full individuality; and it is this history of a personality which the Old Testament presents to us as the formation undergone by those whom God has chosen to be examples. Fraught with their development, sometimes even aged to the verge of dissolution, they show a distinct stamp of individuality entirely foreign to the Homeric heroes. Time can touch the latter only outwardly, and even that change is brought to our observation as little as possible; whereas the stern hand of God is ever upon .the Old Testament figures; he has not only made them once and for all and chosen them, but he continues to work upon them, bends them and kneads them, and, without destroying them in essence, produces from them forms which their youth gave no grounds for anticipating. The objection that the biographical element of the Old Testament often springs from the combination of several legendary personages does not apply; for this combination is a part of the development of the text. And how much wider is the pendulum swing of their lives than that of the Homeric heroes! For they are bearers of the divine will, and yet they are fallible, subject to misfortune and humiliation—and in the midst of misfortune and in their humiliation their acts and words reveal the transcendent majesty of God. There is hardly one of them who does not, like Adam, undergo the deepest humiliation—and hardly one who is not deemed worthy of God’s personal intervention and personal inspiration. Humiliation and elevation go far deeper and far higher than in Homer, and they belong basically together. The poor beggar Odysseus is only masquerading, but Adam is really cast down, Jacob really a refugee, Joseph really in the pit and then a slave to be bought and sold. But their greatness, rising out of humiliation, is almost superhuman and an image of God’s greatness. The reader clearly feels how the extent of the pendulum’s swing is connected with the intensity of the personal history—precisely the most extreme circumstances, in which we are immeasurably forsaken and in despair, or immeasurably joyous and exalted, give us, if we survive them, a personal stamp which is recognized as the product of a rich existence, a rich development. And very often, indeed generally, this element of development gives the Old Testament stories a historical character, even when the subject is purely legendary and traditional.

Homer remains within the legendary with all his material, whereas the material of the Old Testament comes closer and closer to history as the narrative proceeds; in the stories of David the historical report predominates. Here too, much that is legendary still remains, as for example the story of David and Goliath; but much—and the most essential—consists in things which the narrators knew from their own experience or from firsthand testimony. Now the difference between legend and history is in most cases easily perceived by a reasonably experienced reader. It is a difficult matter, requiring careful historical and philological training, to distinguish the true from the synthetic or the biased in a historical presentation; but it is easy to separate the historical from the legendary in general. Their structure is different. Even where the legendary does not immediately betray itself by elements of the miraculdus, by the repetition of well-known standard motives, typical patterns and themes, through neglect of clear details of time and place, and the like, it is generally quickly recognizable by its composition. It runs far too smoothly. All cross-currents, all friction, all that is casual, secondary to the main events and themes, everything unresolved, truncated, and uncertain, which confuses the clear progress of the action and the simple orientation of the actors, has disappeared. The historical event which we witness, or learn from the testimony of those who witnessed it, runs much more variously, contradictorily, and confusedly; not until it has produced results in a definite domain are we able, with their help, to classify it to a certain extent; and how often the order to which we think we have attained becomes doubtful again, how often we ask ourselves if the data before us have not led us to a far too simple classification of the original events! Legend arranges its material in a simple and straightforward way; it detaches it from its contemporary historical context, so that the latter will not confuse it; it knows only clearly outlined men who act from few and simple motives and the continuity of whose feelings and actions remains uninterrupted. In the legends of martyrs, for example, a stiff-necked and fanatical persecutor stands over against an equally stiff-necked and fanatical victim; and a situation so complicated—that is to say, so real and historical—as that in which the “persecutor” Pliny finds himself in his celebrated letter to Trajan on the subject of the Christians, is unfit for legend. And that is still a comparatively simple case. Let the reader think of the history which we are ourselves witnessing; anyone who, for example, evaluates the behavior of individual men and groups of men at the time of the rise of National Socialism in Germany, or the behavior of individual peoples and states before and during the last war, will feel how difficult it is to represent historical themes in general, and how unfit they are for legend; the historical comprises a great number of contradictory motives in each individual, a hesitation and ambiguous groping on the part of groups; only seldom (as in the last war) does a more or less plain situation, comparatively simple to describe, arise, and even such a situation is subject to division below the surface, is indeed almost constantly in danger of losing its simplicity; and the motives of all the interested parties are so complex that the slogans of propaganda can be composed only through the crudest simplification—with the result that friend and foe alike can often employ the same ones. To write history is so difficult that most historians are forced to make concessions to the technique of legend.

:bow: :bow:
 
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artybloke

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How many times does the BIble have to be more right for a longer period of time than science for it to have credibility?

When did I say it wasn't "credible? But as usual you've swallowed the whole rationalist pill that somehow says that something that is factual is "more true" than something that is fictional.

How about we go right to the nub of scriptural credibility. Is Daniel also about beauty of expression primarily, or did it predict events that have and will come true?

The Book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century BC and refers to events that took place then. "Beauty of expression" - what does that mean exactly? I'm sure that the poet who wrote it was as interested in aesthetics as most poets are; but he was also writing a book to support those Jews under persecution during the Greek occupation of their country.

There is no part of the Bible that predicts the future into the far distance; otherwise certain writers were writing stuff that was nonsense at the time of writing. They were always writing the things that meant something to the first readers, to whom (not us) the writing was directed.

That future readers later applied the scriptures to things that happened later, or that dispensationalists use the Bible as a kind of Old Moore's Almanack of prediction (thus making the Bible no more relevant than a horoscope) is nothing to do with what the original writers intended, or the original readers understood by it. The bible is not a book of magic.
 
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gluadys

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Gen. 1.1 as a literary form describes the same issues as the BB singularity. Jastrow agrees.

But he does so as a philosopher, not as a scientist. This is not science. It is a theology of anachronism whereby one takes a modern concept and digs up what may be interpreted as parallels in ancient concepts. It doesn't really tell us what the Bible actually says. It tells us more about the mind of the interpreter.




Probably not. But, it is worth noting that it nailed a number of the biggest issues there are.

Only if one is using an theology of anachronism as a basis of interpretation.





He also did a decent job of reporting in advance the rise and fall of Persian, Greek and Roman empires, as well as the appearance of the Messiah.

Well, no. The Persian empire had already retreated before the book of Daniel was written. Alexander's empire had split into squabbling sections. The part of Daniel that refers to the "king of the north" and the "king of the south" is about the conflicts between the Seleucid (north) and Ptolemaic (south--based in Egypt) empires. Judea, through most of this period was under Seleucid control, but sometimes came under the Ptolemies.

I doubt that the author had Rome in view. That is a later interpretation imposed on the text retro-actively.
 
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The Book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century BC and refers to events that took place then. "Beauty of expression" - what does that mean exactly? I'm sure that the poet who wrote it was as interested in aesthetics as most poets are; but he was also writing a book to support those Jews under persecution during the Greek occupation of their country......

Interesting that Jeremiah, a century previous to your 2nd century BC Daniel, references Daniel's "future" writing in his own book. :eek: And you said it's not magic. :D
 
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busterdog

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Interesting that Jeremiah, a century previous to your 2nd century BC Daniel, references Daniel's "future" writing in his own book. :eek: And you said it's not magic. :D

Plus, Jesus HImself said Daniel was a prophet.

The Septuagint translation included Daniel. I am sure these scholars did not succumb to a fake. The integrity of the Jewish scribes has been attested to time and again. The Dead Sea scrolls confirmed this integrity when the Jews had all the time in the world to edit their texts to improve their political point. The argument about Daniel essentially derives from the belief that there are no such things as prophets, so there has to be another explanation.

Daniel also predicted the arrival of Jesus to the day on Palm Sunday from the order to rebuild the wall recorded in Ezra, I think. Even if Daniel was off (which he wasn't), we are talking about an error of maybe 660-1000 days out of nearly 173,880 days. That is at least statistically significant. http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks2.htm

No less than Isaac Newton affirmed the accuracy of Daniel's prophecy by similar means. http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2004/daniel.html

Sometimes you have such a different view of reality, that it makes an exchange of ideas becomes very difficult. This probably not very productive at this point.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
 
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shernren

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Because they hadn't been separated from each other yet.
But if they hadn't been separated, then it wouldn't make sense for the Spirit to be hovering over the waters, for the waters didn't exist as things-in-themselves yet at that point as you say.
 
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gluadys

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Plus, Jesus HImself said Daniel was a prophet.

The Septuagint translation included Daniel.

In the Hebrew division of the OT, Daniel is not included among the prophets, but among the Writings. His work dates from after the time the rabbis assigned to the Prophets. I am sure Jesus was aware of this.

I am sure these scholars did not succumb to a fake. The integrity of the Jewish scribes has been attested to time and again. The Dead Sea scrolls confirmed this integrity when the Jews had all the time in the world to edit their texts to improve their political point.

And this speaks well for the rabbinic tradition. However, the rabbinic tradition did not come to the fore until the time of the Babylonian exile and does not necessarily apply to copies made prior to the exile.

The argument about Daniel essentially derives from the belief that there are no such things as prophets, so there has to be another explanation.

Actually, it comes from linguistics. The Hebrew and Aramaic of the Book of Daniel date from the 2nd century BCE (indeed the presence of both languages shows it comes from a time when the common tongue of the Jewish people was transiting from Hebrew to Aramaic). Languages change over time and the style, vocabulary, spelling, etc. of a text are reliable clues to dating the time of writing. A reader of English, for example, could readily distinguish a text in Victorian English from a text in Elizabethan English. Experts in Hebrew linguistics can do the same for biblical Hebrew.

Daniel also predicted the arrival of Jesus to the day on Palm Sunday from the order to rebuild the wall recorded in Ezra, I think. Even if Daniel was off (which he wasn't), we are talking about an error of maybe 660-1000 days out of nearly 173,880 days. That is at least statistically significant. http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks2.htm

No less than Isaac Newton affirmed the accuracy of Daniel's prophecy by similar means. http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2004/daniel.html

It is easy to manipulate numbers to get the answer you are looking for. I saw all too much of that among Jehovah's Witnesses, though they are far from the only onces to engage in this sort of analysis of "prophecy". The commentary on Anderson's figures shows that they can be understood differently. Among other things it mentions that

Another area in which Sir Robert's investigative work turned the lights on was in nailing down the correct royal edict which had fired the starting gun for the initiation of the Seventy Weeks prophecy.​

So, if he had chosen a different edict, he would have got a different answer.

Sometimes you have such a different view of reality, that it makes an exchange of ideas becomes very difficult.

Good mental exercise though. :D
 
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artybloke

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Interesting that Jeremiah, a century previous to your 2nd century BC Daniel, references Daniel's "future" writing in his own book. :eek: And you said it's not magic. :D
Except of course Jeremiah itself (and Isaiah and several others of the prophets) is a composite work.

Also, it's highly likely that the stories about Daniel are a lot older than the actual Daniel that we have in our hands - the writer would have taken those stories and added the later apocalyptic prophecies (another reason to say that it's 2nd century - Daniel contains not prophecy so much as apocalyptic writing - a genre that didn't begin until the 2nd century.)

No less than Isaac Newton affirmed the accuracy of Daniel's prophecy by similar means.

Great scientist he may have been. He was an Arian, and susceptible to some very fruitcake ideas when it comes to the Bible, astrology and the like.

The argument about Daniel essentially derives from the belief that there are no such things as prophets, so there has to be another explanation.

Prophecy is about preaching, not prediction. It was the job of the prophet to hold a mirror up to society and to preach the consequences of Isreal/Judea's sins, not to predict the future. The Bible is not a text for divination of the future.
 
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artybloke

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Daniel most definitley wrote his book during the Babylonian exile.
You have a photo of him doing it?

How come he speaks 2nd century versions of Hebrew & Aramaic then?

youll know the truth and it should make sense folks.
You can't handle the truth.
 
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jeffweeder

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Jack nicholson, how do you do...

this part of Daniel was written in Aramaic;

Dan 2
4 Then the Chaldeans spoke to the king in Aramaic[9][The text is in Aramaic from here through 7:28]: "O king, live forever! Tell the dream to your servants, and we will declare the interpretation."

The beginning and the rest is in Hebrew--wouldnt you expect this as it was the commercial and diplomatic language of the day?
it was Written to Jews living among babylonians.

This confirms to me that it was written when it declares it was written.
You seem to think it was a forgery written much ,much later.--why would a forgery include this part of the text -in their language?

can you understand where i am coming from?
 
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artybloke

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You seem to think it was a forgery written much

Emotive 20th century anachronistic thinking. They did not have the same concept of authorship in the ancient world as we do now. For them to claim originality for their writings would probably have seemed like anathema to them. Pseudonymous writing was a very common way for writers to claim that they were part of a long tradition of thing (see 2 Ezra, the longer versions of Daniel and Esther etc - in the full (not the protestant truncation) Bible.)

--why would a forgery include this part of the text -in their language?
See above for use of emotive words - but as I say, it's a composite work. It may even contain earlier material that originates with the historical Daniel.

it was Written to Jews living among babylonians.

And? There were plenty of Jews living in Babylon in the 2nd century. Though it's more likely that the apocalyptic passages were written for those Jews who had returned from exile and were trying to resist the Greeks. It has more in common with the time of Maccabees than with the time of the exile.

Sorry about the Jack Nicholson quote. I couldn't resist...
 
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busterdog

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Prophecy is about preaching, not prediction. It was the job of the prophet to hold a mirror up to society and to preach the consequences of Isreal/Judea's sins, not to predict the future. The Bible is not a text for divination of the future.

If you came in here and told me my mother was a street worker, you can understand how I would be offended. I struggle not to get angry not just when you produce conclusions completely dismissive of basic scripture and when you also show not the slightest bit of interest in a arguments supporting scripture. I guess I am not really interested in re-running the course of scriptural deconstruction, so I am really no better when it comes to willingness to pursue the mental exercise of looking at another's viewpoint.

But, let's be clear. It is not necessarily virtuous for a Christian to provoke you to unload more of this standard academic anti-Christian fare. Further, the idea that God did not speak, predict and act they way He said He did is something that needs to be met with clarity.

There is very little common ground here and you have insulted my God.
 
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