Reagan Statue To Replace Soviet Monument In Poland

[KomissarSteve]

Oh I see! As foreign Ministers, they were not privy to inner politburo workings or to the impact on their nation economy due to external pressures?

Don't strawman; I never said that they weren't privy to either. I said that they were less privy than, say, Gorbachev, who has already commented on the issue.

Gorby wasn’t speculating. He was playing point guard for his own legacy.

I didn't say Gorby was speculating; I said that whoever originally said he was playing point guard for his own legacy was speculating.

Already did it. You just refuse to acknowledge it.

I refuse to acknowledge trumped-up op-ed pieces that claim it. I would gladly acknowledge primary sources, or secondary sources that clearly cite primary sources, that made the assertion that Reagan's policy had a significantly positive impact.

So far, the only sources that fit either of these criteria state that Reagan's policy did NOT have a significantly positive impact on ending the Cold War.

Yes really. The Marxists took over in 1978 via a murderous coup. The Soviet invasion was meant to prop them up. It was a flagrant provocation toward the US . Hence the strong reaction of Carter.

Right, so where is your evidence that their primary objective was to cause harm to American citizens or American-owned holdings in Afghanistan? That would be an example of direct policy towards the U.S.; what you're describing now is an example of indirect policy.

 

[oldbetang]

I'm not the one who requires clarification; it's obvious I was referring to the sources you provided in general, not the piece in particular that you were citing at the time - which you didn't provide, anyway, so I don't see how you could think I was referring to it anyway.

The chronology speaks for itself!

 

[KomissarSteve]

The chronology speaks for itself!

I agree - it demonstrates unambiguously that I was referring to the articles you provided, not the one you were immediately citing.

 

[oldbetang]

KomissarSteve,

So far, the only sources that fit either of these criteria state that Reagan's policy did NOT have a significantly positive impact on ending the Cold War.

Alright, let's see them!

 

[oldbetang]

I agree - it demonstrates unambiguously that I was referring to the articles you provided, not the one you were immediately citing.

Go back and read it again. Try removing your blinders this time.

 

[KomissarSteve]

KomissarSteve,



Alright, let's see them!

Go back and comb through this thread; I've posted several already.

I'm going to be frank with you - I'm bored of this debate. I think it's pathetic that someone twice my age would act as immaturely as you have in this thread. Evidently being able to admit when you're wrong is not a skill that necessarily comes with age. Enjoy being on my ignore list.

 

[JoyJuice]

North wanted to use money that had been generated in a sting operation against the Medellin Cartel and Sandinista officials. There's a huge distinction between using Contra generated drug money and using drug money taken from the Sandinista.

Okay, so the question is, were they fully aware of the drug activities? Did they A) take advantage it to conduct their illegal activities to aid the contras, or B) turn over all relevant information to break up the illegal trafficking?

 

[oldbetang]

Okay, so the question is, were they fully aware of the drug activities? Did they A) take advantage it to conduct their illegal activities to aid the contras, or B) turn over all relevant information to break up the illegal trafficking?

To answer both questions: I don't know! In the absence of any specific evidence, we can only speculate. Is it possible that some Contras engaged in illegal drug trafficking? Yes! Is it possible that some US officials knew about it and turned a blind eye? Yes! Is it a stretch of the imagination to believe that senior US officials would ever condone drug smuggling operations of a Cold War ally? No! The US has done business with some nasties throughout the years of the Cold War. Remember Zbigniew Brzezinski standing with the Mujahadeen on a hilltop in Afghanistan, declaring to them that they were doing God's work? No, you do what you have to do to win in a War, even a Cold War.

Setting aside legal considerations and the hypocrisy which any guilt would imply against the Reagan administration, my question to you is "would it bother you if the drug smuggling had indeed been allowed to take place?"

 

[oldbetang]

Go back and comb through this thread; I've posted several already.

I'm going to be frank with you - I'm bored of this debate. I think it's pathetic that someone twice my age would act as immaturely as you have in this thread. Evidently being able to admit when you're wrong is not a skill that necessarily comes with age. Enjoy being on my ignore list.

I've been posting in numerous online forums for nine years now. As far as I know, you are the first person to ever put me on their ignore list. Think about that!

 

[JoyJuice]

To answer both questions: I don't know! In the absence of any specific evidence, we can only speculate. Is it possible that some Contras engaged in illegal drug trafficking? Yes! Is it possible that some US officials knew about it and turned a blind eye? Yes! Is it a stretch of the imagination to believe that senior US officials would ever condone drug smuggling operations of a Cold War ally? No! The US has done business with some nasties throughout the years of the Cold War. Remember Zbigniew Brzezinski standing with the Mujahadeen on a hilltop in Afghanistan, declaring to them that they were doing God's work? No, you do what you have to do to win in a War, even a Cold War.

Setting aside legal considerations and the hypocrisy which any guilt would imply against the Reagan administration, my question to you is "would it bother you if the drug smuggling had indeed been allowed to take place?"

Sure there's evidence they knew they were dealing with drug dealers to ferry their arms to the Contras. Moreover, I am not naive enough to understand we live in a complicated world. However because of that complicated world and how Reagan choose to deal with it, the myth of it was him who put a halt to the Cold War, and his folklore status of greatness is pretty naive on it's face.

That was and is my whole point of this dialogue.

 

[JustOneWay]

I've been posting in numerous online forums for nine years now. As far as I know, you are the first person to ever put me on their ignore list. Think about that!

What are you implying?

 

[ArnautDaniel]

This is quite an honor for the legacy of Ronald Reagan



There's more. I am not aware of any comparable memorials (although I've never looked into it) other than the one for John Kerry in Hanoi. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised to see one in Red China for Clinton some day.

Hopefully the statue will include Bonzo.

 

[Sketcher]

Made me smile. Reagan was the first guy I voted for. Of course, only John Paul II would be more deserving of an anti-communist monument in Poland.

I'd be all for a statue of them side by side.

 

[JacobHall86]

We need one in Washington DC.

 

[MachZer0]

Hopefully the statue will include Bonzo.

By Bonzo, do you mean Gorbachev? I could see a statue of Reagan standing with one foot on Gorbachev's head, signifying the defeat of the USSR by Reagan's policies.

 

[JoyJuice]

By Bonzo, do you mean Gorbachev? I could see a statue of Reagan standing with one foot on Gorbachev's head, signifying the defeat of the USSR by Reagan's policies.

That would be like erecting a statue of George Washington because of the chopping down the cherry tree/don't lie myth.

 

[MachZer0]

That would be like erecting a statue of George Washington because of the chopping down the cherry tree/don't lie myth.

Apparently, the Poles disagree with you.

 

[reverend B]

how about lech walesa, the polish Christian labor saint? he would be a good choice to memorialize.

i think reagan should have a statue put up in afghanistan for leaving the political vacuum that allowed the taliban to rise to power while he myopically focused solely on the "evil empire". or perhaps one in beihrut for his complete retreat from there after the bombing of our embassy.

 

[ArnautDaniel]

By Bonzo, do you mean Gorbachev? I could see a statue of Reagan standing with one foot on Gorbachev's head, signifying the defeat of the USSR by Reagan's policies.

No, I mean a chimp.

Adding a chimp to the statue adds appropriate perspective on a man that was always a B-grade actor, who played his assigned part competently at best.

 

[JustOneWay]

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003547309

No longer on top