The Origin of Christianity (I report, You decide) ?

[Orthosdoxa]

Read my post, on the previous page.

 

[buzuxi02]

If astrology had something to do with christian symbolism, then you have to ask the jews. Christianity borrowed the symbolism of numbers from Judaism.

Jesus has 12 apostles because Isreal was composed of 12 tribes. Jesus lost one disciple (Judas Iscariot) just as one tribe of the israelites, the tribe of Dan chose the wrong path.

Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb to fulfil the OT propehcy of Jonah spending 3 days in the stomach of a whale. Only on the sabbath was it a complete 24 hour burial because on the sabbath God rested from his work likewise Jesus rested from his work.

The fish symbol for Christ derives from the greek word for fish which is IXTHYS. The acronym stands for:

I- Isous (Jesus)
X- Xristos (Christ)
TH- Theos (God)
Y-Yios (Son)
S- Soter (Savior)

As far as "many mansions" go, your simply guessing there are twelve. You want to believe it so badly in order to fit your hypothesis. The truth is that the best you can hope for is that there are Seven heavens. The phrase 'seventh heaven' comes to mind. This is pre-christian and post- judaic belief of mesopotamia. The number of heavens tended to number 7 but as many as eleven (and no more, look it up for yourself). In christianity though, there are only three (2 cor 12.2) and one which has yet to come (Heb 11.16). Not that it matters because the reference your using has nothing to do with any of this.

Now if you believe there is a judaic/ astrological correlation then i suggest you speak to a rabbi who is knowlesgeable in the Kabalah.


P.S. what about the "40 day period" which plays an even more significant role in christianity? I know the answer(s) do you?

 

[Macarius]

I would also very much appreciate a reply to the perspective I posted on the other page.

It is very easy to "invent" explanations for observable phenomena and then to use that "explanation" (which is speculative and made up) in order to discount someone else's world view. What I posted on the other page is a great example of that. So is what you posted at the start of the thread.

Freud did the same thing - asserting that religious belief was an "illusion," and inventing a nice little explanation for it.

The problem is that these are speculative. You don't know. I can come up with an equally reasonible and plausible counter explanation, and the only difference between which one you accept and which one I accept is our preconcieved world view - meaning that the argument has no point since our preformed opinion will determine our opinion on this issue. It's irrelevant, even a setback to discussion.

 

[dollar]

If astrology had something to do with christian symbolism, then you have to ask the jews. Christianity borrowed the symbolism of numbers from Judaism.

The Jewish religion started at the beginning of the age of Aries which is symbolized as the Ram or Lamb. The Jews still blow the Rams horn no? The slaying of the Lamb was a way of commemorating the end of the age of Aries. Much like they slayed The Lamb of God (Jesus) at the end of Aries age. Jesus was then resurrected for the new Piscean Age (The Fish). Lets talk about all this fish stuff below...

Jesus has 12 apostles because Isreal was composed of 12 tribes. Jesus lost one disciple (Judas Iscariot) just as one tribe of the israelites, the tribe of Dan chose the wrong path.

12 apostles / 12 tribes. Same thing as the other. There are 12 zodiac and they reside in their area's or (rule the area's) tribes in the sky.

Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb to fulfil the OT propehcy of Jonah spending 3 days in the stomach of a whale. Only on the sabbath was it a complete 24 hour burial because on the sabbath God rested from his work likewise Jesus rested from his work.

Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb / Jonah spent 3 days in the whale. Agian same thing. This is the borrowed story of the 3 days death and ressurection which has been repeted throught history. Much like how the Sun 'dies' for 3 days. The second day the sun was 'dead' would be one of rest because it is between the time being 'put into' the 'grave' and 'ressurecting.'

The fish symbol for Christ derives from the greek word for fish which is IXTHYS. The acronym stands for:

I- Isous (Jesus)
X- Xristos (Christ)
TH- Theos (God)
Y-Yios (Son)
S- Soter (Savior)

Where did the Greek's get this fish symbol from? It is an exact copy of the symbol for Pisces. What about all the text in the Bible which is fish related? Maybe its like this because Jesus was born or reborn at the beginning of the Age of Pisces...

As far as "many mansions" go, your simply guessing there are twelve. You want to believe it so badly in order to fit your hypothesis. The truth is that the best you can hope for is that there are Seven heavens. The phrase 'seventh heaven' comes to mind. This is pre-christian and post- judaic belief of mesopotamia. The number of heavens tended to number 7 but as many as eleven (and no more, look it up for yourself). In christianity though, there are only three (2 cor 12.2) and one which has yet to come (Heb 11.16). Not that it matters because the reference your using has nothing to do with any of this.

The real meaning of the verse has been lost through all the translations. The verse should read: "In my Fathers abide are many Houses." = Where the sun abide's are 12 houses (of the zodiac)
what of these other verses?
( Revelation 1:7 ) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. = The Sun cometh with clouds everyday to bring life to the world.

Especially this one:

(Luke 22:10) And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. = The Age after Pisces is Aquarius (who's house we enter after the piscin Age) who is symbolized holding a pitcher of water.

Now if you believe there is a judaic/ astrological correlation then i suggest you speak to a rabbi who is knowlesgeable in the Kabalah.

I dout a rabbi will tell you his belief is based off of astrology. Either he won't know, be in denial, or most often People in power don't want you to know the truth because the truth would give you power.

P.S. what about the "40 day period" which plays an even more significant role in christianity? I know the answer(s) do you?

The forty day period is symbolism for a cleansing period. Much like the the 40 day purificatory period called Lent which happens after Easter (or the spring equinox).

Agian i recommend this video to everyone:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8251447278663885234 This video was developed in the 90's but is good nontheless. It isn't offensive (or at least is one of the least offensive i'v seen) but it gives you something to think about. I only ask that you watch the whole thing through at least once.

 

[dollar]

I would also very much appreciate a reply to the perspective I posted on the other page.

It is very easy to "invent" explanations for observable phenomena and then to use that "explanation" (which is speculative and made up) in order to discount someone else's world view. What I posted on the other page is a great example of that. So is what you posted at the start of the thread.

Freud did the same thing - asserting that religious belief was an "illusion," and inventing a nice little explanation for it.

The problem is that these are speculative. You don't know. I can come up with an equally reasonible and plausible counter explanation, and the only difference between which one you accept and which one I accept is our preconcieved world view - meaning that the argument has no point since our preformed opinion will determine our opinion on this issue. It's irrelevant, even a setback to discussion.

Your argument is theological, which is mans attempt to understand God. How can we understand God? The theologens tell us what Gods 'will' is and we blindly follow there orders. Did God tell thoes theologens that there conclusions about the Bible were correct? or are they just asumming they are correct?

I was raised Catholic don't think I have no clue about any of this. I'v been in your world view before. I'v seen the world though thoes lenses.
Why exactly is it so hard to find God? Why must we search for him? If he really does exist I would think it wouldn't be so hard to find him huh?

We are taught we need to go to church in order to be closer to God. It really does make us feel like we are closer doesn't it. With all that visual aid it gives us and the group feeling of purpose.

If you look around at the world, you'll see things aren't what they say they are. We are being lied to by thoes in power and its a lie most of us are believing. Thoes in power don't mind. It gives them power over us. It makes us weak and them strong.
Wake up to the world around you. People are manipulated daily by thoes in power. This just don't go for Religion but Governments and thoes who control the cash flow.

They don't want us to think too much because that is what they fear. They fear a society of critical thinkers.

They want you to bow down and do what they say

Although I know everything I just said won't make much of a difference. I'm probably wasting my time.
Many people love to bask in ignorant bliss

Though I hope I have at least sparked some thought into the minds of the masses.

Agian I say I respect your opinions. I am sorry if i got a little carried away up there. Just trying to start a little critical thinking on the matter at hand.

 

[buzuxi02]

The Jewish religion started at the beginning of the age of Aries which is symbolized as the Ram or Lamb. The Jews still blow the Rams horn no? The slaying of the Lamb was a way of commemorating the end of the age of Aries. Much like they slayed The Lamb of God (Jesus) at the end of Aries age. Jesus was then resurrected for the new Piscean Age (The Fish). Lets talk about all this fish stuff below...


12 apostles / 12 tribes. Same thing as the other. There are 12 zodiac and they reside in their area's or (rule the area's) tribes in the sky.


Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb / Jonah spent 3 days in the whale. Agian same thing. This is the borrowed story of the 3 days death and ressurection which has been repeted throught history. Much like how the Sun 'dies' for 3 days. The second day the sun was 'dead' would be one of rest because it is between the time being 'put into' the 'grave' and 'ressurecting.'


Where did the Greek's get this fish symbol from? It is an exact copy of the symbol for Pisces. What about all the text in the Bible which is fish related? Maybe its like this because Jesus was born or reborn at the beginning of the Age of Pisces...


The real meaning of the verse has been lost through all the translations. The verse should read: "In my Fathers abide are many Houses." = Where the sun abide's are 12 houses (of the zodiac)
what of these other verses?
( Revelation 1:7 ) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. = The Sun cometh with clouds everyday to bring life to the world.

Especially this one:

(Luke 22:10) And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. = The Age after Pisces is Aquarius (who's house we enter after the piscin Age) who is symbolized holding a pitcher of water.



I dout a rabbi will tell you his belief is based off of astrology. Either he won't know, be in denial, or most often People in power don't want you to know the truth because the truth would give you power.


The forty day period is symbolism for a cleansing period. Much like the the 40 day purificatory period called Lent which happens after Easter (or the spring equinox).

Agian i recommend this video to everyone:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8251447278663885234 This video was developed in the 90's but is good nontheless. It isn't offensive (or at least is one of the least offensive i'v seen) but it gives you something to think about. I only ask that you watch the whole thing through at least once.

I really cant fathom your interpretations.

Im not sure what you mean by the sun dies for three days. I simply dont know the story behind it.

What i do know is that there is a sun rise and a sunset.
I know in the northpole there is 6 months of day light and 6 months of night.

The "sun comes with clouds" again ive never heard this phrase before.

There are 12 stars on the flag of the european union , are they also borrowing from the zodiac? If so, who cares?

What about the one apostle that fell away?

How about the 24 elders constantly mentioned, which christianity says is symbolic for the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles? (rev 11.16)

How about the ancient spurious jewish and christian belief that there are 7 ages till the end of the world which usually last about a millenium or so, just like the 7 day creation?
Dispensationalism has always been rejected
.
The greek symbol for fish in use in christianity , i already explained. Greek for fish is ixthys and each letter stands for what i wrote above, its an acronym. In fact even in english, a marine scientist, (one who studies ocean wildlife) is called an icthyologist.

And forget about trying to persuade me that meanings have been lost thru translations or it means something else in greeks. Because i am an ethnic greek and have a few greek bibles that i use including the septuagint.

You seem to have rejected catholicism as untrustworthy yet assume that there is truth in the zodiac. Astrologist believe those born under the sign of virgo, tend to be virgins, or prudes or teases (every last one of them).

Those born under gemini have split personalities. They assume everyone born under that sign are bipolar.
Thus depending on what sign your born under you have certain related traits in your DNA. Talk about stereotyping!

I really dont know what posseses the "white man" to be infatuated with the zodiac animals of the sky and their horoscope, printed up randomly by a computer program for the local newspapers everyday. (oops, sorry for the stereotype.)

 

[dollar]

I really cant fathom your interpretations.

Its not that hard to fathom them. Have you ever played a game called connect the dots? Give it some more thought?

Im not sure what you mean by the sun dies for three days. I simply dont know the story behind it.

You should of read my original post, the answer your looking for is right there.
But i'll post it here for you:
Ancients noticed the Sun moves south during winter, gets to a point where the sun stops moving south but also didn't move back north either for 3 days. They said the sun died for 3 days. When the Sun started moving north agian they said it ressurected from the dead. This "ressurection" of the sun after it "died" for 3 days happend on December 25th. They said the Sun was the salvation of the world because it was risen. The Sun is on the cross of the zodiac.
That help?

What i do know is that there is a sun rise and a sunset.
I know in the northpole there is 6 months of day light and 6 months of night.

This is true.

The "sun comes with clouds" again ive never heard this phrase before.

( Revelation 1:7 ) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Well like this bible verse doesn't the sun come up every morning and look like its with the clouds? And every eye see's the sun (Him)?

There are 12 stars on the flag of the european union , are they also borrowing from the zodiac? If so, who cares?

Don't know, but the 12 zodiac fit the description of the 12 apostles better. Because the 12 zodiac (apostles) signs travel around with the Sun (Son) spreading the light (word) to the world.

What about the one apostle that fell away?

Just because one fell away in the story nothing of this makes any sense? Possibly its a reference to the Age of Aries which fell away after we moved into the age of pisces?

How about the 24 elders constantly mentioned, which christianity says is symbolic for the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles? (rev 11.16)

I just found this out. The 24 elders is reference to 24 hours in a day.

How about the ancient spurious jewish and christian belief that there are 7 ages till the end of the world which usually last about a millenium or so, just like the 7 day creation?
Dispensationalism has always been rejected

here are a list of the ages up to today which as far as we know have been put into stories:

1. Age of Leo

Sun worship, Ra, Sphinx or Lion (Age of Adam in Hebrew symbology)


2. Age of Cancer

Beetle or Sacred Scarab of Egypt, later the Crab, Isis (Eve)


3. Age of Gemini

Early writing, hieroglyphics, Horus and Set (or Cain and Abel)


4. Age of Taurus

Agricultural Age, Fertility religions, Golden Calf, Hindu Cattle worship, (Spanish bullfighting is a ritual relating to the end of the Taurus Age) The Hindu religion still clings to its cattle worship from the age of Taurus.


5. Age of Aries

Power worship -- Power god Jehovah, sign ruled by Ram or Lamb, Lamb of David, slaying of the lamb as a ritual commemorating the end of the age. The Hebrew or Jewish religion still promotes the concept of a the power-hungry, threatening, egocentric god Jehovah.


6. Age of Pisces

God as a fisher of men, Lamb of God sacrificed at the end of Aries age, resurrected for the new Piscean Age. The Cross as a symbol for the re-birth of the new year (Aries and Pisces are the cross points, or transition signs between the end of one zodiac and the beginning of the new zodiacal year, Easter, when the Sun (Son) hangs suspended on the cross between winter and spring, as the death of the Old and resurrection of the New. The Christian religions keep promoting a sacrificial lamb and asking followers to sacrifice and martyr themselves for Christ, while never realizing that they are keeping Christ on the Cross and could take him down and put him in their hearts and consciousness; keeping people bowing to the cross and feeling guilty if they ever question why they should go like zombies to kneel before a shrine that keeps the Christ suspended thus bowing to the messenger, while ignoring the message.

7. Age of Aquarius (The Age after Jesus) (we are currently in this Age I believe)

We are in the 7th age, end of the world didn't happen. This make sense?

.
The greek symbol for fish in use in christianity , i already explained. Greek for fish is ixthys and each letter stands for what i wrote above, its an acronym. In fact even in english, a marine scientist, (one who studies ocean wildlife) is called an icthyologist.

Yes? and where did the greeks get the symbol for the fish in christianity from?
The symbol is an exact copy of the symbol for the Age of pisces (the fish). What of all the Biblical text refering to fish? Nothing to do with the age of pisces?

And forget about trying to persuade me that meanings have been lost thru translations or it means something else in greeks. Because i am an ethnic greek and have a few greek bibles that i use including the septuagint.

Meaning lost in translations or not there is still somewhat of a connection that can be seen.
But this verse aside. What of this one:
(Luke 22:10) And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
The Age after Pisces is Aquarius (who's house we enter after the piscin Age) who is symbolized holding a pitcher of water.
I really want to know what is ment by this verse and why it seems so similar to this astrology stuff.

You seem to have rejected catholicism as untrustworthy yet assume that there is truth in the zodiac. Astrologist believe those born under the sign of virgo, tend to be virgins, or prudes or teases (every last one of them).

Those born under gemini have split personalities. They assume everyone born under that sign are bipolar.
Thus depending on what sign your born under you have certain related traits in your DNA. Talk about stereotyping!

I really dont know what posseses the "white man" to be infatuated with the zodiac animals of the sky and their horoscope, printed up randomly by a computer program for the local newspapers everyday. (oops, sorry for the stereotype.)

I don't think the truth is in the zodiac but I do think that Astrology bears a strong resembelence to many religions out there. This gives me reason to believe religions such as christianity is a personified version of the ancient system of the Sun and the 12 Zodiac.

I personal believe Astrology if full of it. I can't stand horoscopes because they have no truth in them. Also like you said just because your born under a certain star doesn't mean your going turn out the way the say you will.
But just because astrology is full of it for the most part (it does have astronomy elements which are true) doesn't mean stories can't be born from the whole astrological system.
Also since you mentioned it, Virgo. Ever since this age has come and passed many religious beliefs have had god's which were born of virgins. Much like the birth of Jesus.

Please, your obviously interested or somewhat facinated in the information I have brought you. Watch this video if you have the time http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8251447278663885234 I think it will answer a lot of your questions. It was created in the 90s, It isn't offensive, it just gives facts.

 

[nutroll]

So when Jesus met the Samaritan Woman at the well, that was probably also about the Age of Aquarius as well. And for that matter, when Rebekah came bearing a pitcher and gave water to Abraham's servant and also to his camels all the way back in Genesis, that was probably about how someday in the far distant future. If you read this part of Genesis (chapter 24) it is remarkably similar to the story you keep citing as evidence. In it, the servant is to find a person, and the way that he will know he has found that person is that she will have a jug of water. But this is far before the age of aquarius. It seems to me, as Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. You say that there were 12 disciples because there are 12 zodiac symbols. What if, and I know this will sound absolutely crazy, there really were 12 disciples just because that's how many Jesus decided to call. What if there was a guy carrying a jug of water in real life?

It seems to me that you are making an a priori assumption that everything in the Bible is untrue. That it is all disguised astrology, and that none of it has a basis in history. I would contend that if you were willing to look at any book of sufficient length with the assumption that none of it is true, and then be willing to pick out little details here and there, and then match those details up with a system like astrology which is designed to be broad enough to get people to apply what it says to aspects of their life, then you will be able to say that that book is based in astrology. Astrology had to encompass every aspect of people's lives in order for it to be sold to the masses in any way. The stories in the Bible all deal with people's lives. Why would it be surprising that there are similarities? And why would you take those similarities to mean that they are there purposefully. Things like jugs of water and fish were to ancient near easterners like televisions and fast food restaurants for us. Reading so much into it is ludicrous.

 

[Kristos]

Where's Libra? I always get left out of everything

 

[dayhiker]

The SUN of God = The SON of God

Yup, everyone knows english was the language of Hellenized world.

dayhiker

 

[dollar]

So when Jesus met the Samaritan Woman at the well, that was probably also about the Age of Aquarius as well. And for that matter, when Rebekah came bearing a pitcher and gave water to Abraham's servant and also to his camels all the way back in Genesis, that was probably about how someday in the far distant future. If you read this part of Genesis (chapter 24) it is remarkably similar to the story you keep citing as evidence. In it, the servant is to find a person, and the way that he will know he has found that person is that she will have a jug of water. But this is far before the age of aquarius. It seems to me, as Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. You say that there were 12 disciples because there are 12 zodiac symbols. What if, and I know this will sound absolutely crazy, there really were 12 disciples just because that's how many Jesus decided to call. What if there was a guy carrying a jug of water in real life?

It seems to me that you are making an a priori assumption that everything in the Bible is untrue. That it is all disguised astrology, and that none of it has a basis in history. I would contend that if you were willing to look at any book of sufficient length with the assumption that none of it is true, and then be willing to pick out little details here and there, and then match those details up with a system like astrology which is designed to be broad enough to get people to apply what it says to aspects of their life, then you will be able to say that that book is based in astrology. Astrology had to encompass every aspect of people's lives in order for it to be sold to the masses in any way. The stories in the Bible all deal with people's lives. Why would it be surprising that there are similarities? And why would you take those similarities to mean that they are there purposefully. Things like jugs of water and fish were to ancient near easterners like televisions and fast food restaurants for us. Reading so much into it is ludicrous.

I just had a look at Genesis (chapter 24) and yes there is a pitcher of water involved. Although this is still different from the verse I presented. Also, yes I am aware that pitchers of water were probably a common thing back then. Lets have another look at this verse:
(Luke 22:10) And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
Now your obviously taking this in a literal sense. I want to know how it makes any sense to take this verse in a literal sense. Please let me know?
symbolically it makes perfect sense:
The Age after Pisces is Aquarius (who's house we enter after the piscin Age) who is symbolized holding a pitcher of water.

Here is a section of text from a web site:

"In Job, God asked his humble servant a series of questions involving the wondrous miracles performed. In Job 38:31-33, God asks, “Can you bind the sweet influences of the Pleiades or loose the bonds of Orion? Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth in their seasons? Or can you guide Arcturus with his sons? Do you know the principles of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth?”

Thus, God is proclaiming that there are principles in the heavens and that they govern life on earth. Furthermore, God is responsible for bringing forth the Mazzaroth in their seasons. Most Bibles avoid translating this sacred word, ‘Mazzaroth’, because it literally means, ‘the twelve signs of the zodiac’, in Hebrew. So, God created the zodiac and brings them forth in their seasons. He explains that heavenly constellations like the Pleiades and Orion have ‘influences’ that can be unleashed."

If you want to read more, a very good read to show how Christianity is just another version of astrology:
http://www.divineinspirationastrology.com/html/subhtml/articles/astrology&bible.htm
please read it?

 

[dollar]

The SUN of God = The SON of God

Yup, everyone knows english was the language of Hellenized world.

dayhiker

I am simply pointing out that instead of the Sun being on the cross they put Jesus on the cross.

 

[seashale76]

First off I respect all your views on life please don't think i'm trying to hurt any feelings. I just wanted to bring this information and you decide wether you agree or not...

The following may not be fact but concider this:

Christianity (and other religions) may be based off of
pagan sun worshipping or shall I say Astrology.


Well you decide but it looks to me like Christianity and many other religions are nothing more than Astrology personified...but its completely up to you if you want to think the same, its just my opinion...

Your thoughts are welcome

Key word in your post here: may. You offer nothing more than idle speculation and unsubstantiated opinion. There are similarities between a lot of different religions. Occasionally one will find that those similarities developed indepedently of each other and weren't influenced by/from each other. Astrology itself (as it is known today) isn't the same as what ancient peoples believed. Honestly, we don't really know for sure what they believed. We can infer some things about what ancient peoples believed through archaeological evidence and, if we're really lucky, written records. Anyone who tries to retroactively go back to connect dots without ironclad proof is engaging in nothing more than wishful thinking and historical revisionism.

 

[nutroll]

Lets have another look at this verse:
(Luke 22:10) And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
Now your obviously taking this in a literal sense. I want to know how it makes any sense to take this verse in a literal sense. Please let me know?

Wow.... hmmm.... That is a hard one to explain... The disciples asked Jesus how they would know where to eat the Passover, so Jesus told them that they would find a man carrying a pitcher of water, and that they should ask him to use a room in his house. I see, first of all, an obvious parallel with the story of Rebekah. I also see what could just be a real story where Jesus (who is God) knew what to tell the disciples to expect, and it involved a pitcher of water because maybe, just maybe that man had just gone and filled his pitcher at the well. Hey, maybe it was even because Jesus wanted water in the house for his meal, or, say, to wash his disciples' feet which he did during the Last Supper. As for entering the house, well Passover is eaten inside, what else would they do? This is so far beyond stretching it's not even funny.

"In Job, God asked his humble servant a series of questions involving the wondrous miracles performed. In Job 38:31-33, God asks, “Can you bind the sweet influences of the Pleiades or loose the bonds of Orion? Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth in their seasons? Or can you guide Arcturus with his sons? Do you know the principles of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth?”

Thus, God is proclaiming that there are principles in the heavens and that they govern life on earth. Furthermore, God is responsible for bringing forth the Mazzaroth in their seasons. Most Bibles avoid translating this sacred word, ‘Mazzaroth’, because it literally means, ‘the twelve signs of the zodiac’, in Hebrew. So, God created the zodiac and brings them forth in their seasons. He explains that heavenly constellations like the Pleiades and Orion have ‘influences’ that can be unleashed."

This text is about God being the creator of everything, it is about how God is greater than all those things and that Job is not. Show me a source that says that Mazzaroth means "the twelve signs of the zodiac" the study bible I looked at says that it refers to an unknown constellation. To be fair, this is the first time that you have even mentioned anything that really refers to anything in astrology, but it is to point out that the heavens are created by and controlled by God and subject to him. I would first of all work on getting a reliable Bible rather than relying on the translations of websites with an agenda.

If you want to read more, a very good read to show how Christianity is just another version of astrology:
http://www.divineinspirationastrology.com/html/subhtml/articles/astrology&bible.htm
please read it?

What would be gained by reading that? You haven't provided anything reliable or trustworthy so far. All I see are vague associations fueled by faulty assumptions. Why would that site be any different? Do you just want to free us from our delusions and subjugation to an evil religion that wants to control us? Because you've got the wrong forum. None of us is here out of guilt, but out of love. We are not living in fear, but in freedom. The closer I draw to God, the more my life has been blessed. I don't need anything any of your websites can provide.

 

[buzuxi02]

If your whole point is to say that you see similarities between the zodiac and christianity and possibly other religions, then thats another thing entirely.

This is not limited to astrology and the zodiac. For instance there are two references in the Finnish epic, the Kalevela, which foreshadows so closely certain christian events that the greek Orthodox Church recognize them as prophecies. In Taoism, in their holy writings the Tao Te Ching there are some amazing references that are similar to the OT and even Taoists interpret them similarly as in christianity, which is quite amazing.

The greek myth of Prometheus and the ceremony of the Olympic flame all foreshadow closely to christian theology.
Then there similarities such as when the old greek religion had priestesses interpret the "language" of the oracle as the wind passed thru the leaves of the oak tree, the sounds the trees made as they rustled thru was considered ecstatic utterance. Thus the priestess would interpret the wind. (see the similarity Jn 3.8, 1Cor 14.27-34)

You have the Ankh cross of the ancient egyptians which can be interpreted in the same way, as you attempt to cross the dots as you say.

In Thailand buddhists write on the rocks of the shores the phrase "Come Maitreya come!" A common phrase among buddhists, the book of Revelations says Come! Lord Jesus! (see Rev22.17-20)

I can go on and on.

 

[dollar]

Wow.... hmmm.... That is a hard one to explain... The disciples asked Jesus how they would know where to eat the Passover, so Jesus told them that they would find a man carrying a pitcher of water, and that they should ask him to use a room in his house. I see, first of all, an obvious parallel with the story of Rebekah. I also see what could just be a real story where Jesus (who is God) knew what to tell the disciples to expect, and it involved a pitcher of water because maybe, just maybe that man had just gone and filled his pitcher at the well. Hey, maybe it was even because Jesus wanted water in the house for his meal, or, say, to wash his disciples' feet which he did during the Last Supper. As for entering the house, well Passover is eaten inside, what else would they do? This is so far beyond stretching it's not even funny.

I'm not stretching anything, in my eyes you are the one doing the stretching. I see it is no use even mentioning that verse here so I won't any more. Happy? All I ask is that you give it some thought and ask why it parallels the idea of us entering into Aquarius's House so much.

This text is about God being the creator of everything, it is about how God is greater than all those things and that Job is not. Show me a source that says that Mazzaroth means "the twelve signs of the zodiac" the study bible I looked at says that it refers to an unknown constellation. To be fair, this is the first time that you have even mentioned anything that really refers to anything in astrology, but it is to point out that the heavens are created by and controlled by God and subject to him. I would first of all work on getting a reliable Bible rather than relying on the translations of websites with an agenda.

It says before translated from its original language of Hebrew, Mazzaroth literally means 'the twelve signs of the zodiac.'
If you want a link well i'll direct you to an online dictionary:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Mazzaroth%20
Why do you suppose God was talking about the 12 signs of the zodiac?

What would be gained by reading that? You haven't provided anything reliable or trustworthy so far. All I see are vague associations fueled by faulty assumptions. Why would that site be any different? Do you just want to free us from our delusions and subjugation to an evil religion that wants to control us? Because you've got the wrong forum. None of us is here out of guilt, but out of love. We are not living in fear, but in freedom. The closer I draw to God, the more my life has been blessed. I don't need anything any of your websites can provide.

If you want to read more, a very good read to show how Christianity is just another version of astrology:
http://www.divineinspirationastrolog...logy&bible.htm
please read it?

What have you to gain by reading this? Maybe some stuff you didn't know.
What harm can it do if your already so convinced its bogus. Maybe you'll even get a laugh out of it?

Oh and thank you for insulting me. Is that part of your duties to the Christian faith?

 

[nutroll]

I'm not stretching anything, in my eyes you are the one doing the stretching. I see it is no use even mentioning that verse here so I won't any more. Happy? All I ask is that you give it some thought and ask why it parallels the idea of us entering into Aquarius's House so much.

How is it stretching for me to look at what the text says and take it at face value? The only thing that could even be seen as stretching is the parallel to Rebekah, but given that there are many times that OT events are foreshadows of NT events, that's really not stretching.

It says before translated from its original language of Hebrew, Mazzaroth literally means 'the twelve signs of the zodiac.'
If you want a link well i'll direct you to an online dictionary:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Mazzaroth
Why do you suppose God was talking about the 12 signs of the zodiac?

Please notice that only the one definition says that it means the 12 signs of the zodiac while the other one says "probably." what it actually means is not clear. At best these are guesses. Why rely on a guess?

What have you to gain by reading this? Maybe some stuff you didn't know.
What harm can it do if your already so convinced its bogus. Maybe you'll even get a laugh out of it?

Oh and thank you for insulting me. Is that part of your duties to the Christian faith?

If nothing you have posted so far has rung at all true, why would I want to spend my time reading though more of the same? I could swim in a sewer because it's something I've never done before, but I'd rather not. There are countless things that I can think of that would be a better use of my time.

I don't believe I've said anything insulting. I spend a lot of time editing my posts before ever submitting them to make sure that I am being as charitable as possible. If there is something in particular that I have said that is untrue and which you find insulting, I apologize. I just don't really have much desire to be overly diplomatic when someone says that the faith that I practice, the faith that millions of people have died to defend is a sham. I personally find this thread offensive, but have strived to remain as civil as possible in my discourse.

 

[nutroll]

Well despite my better judgment, I read the article you posted, and I have to say that I have never read anything more poorly researched. Just look up the Bible quotes that he mentions. They are so twisted and contorted, and outright changed to make them say what he needs them to say for the sake of his argument. It reminds me of every Watchtower magazine I have ever read.

It is obvious to anyone that reads the Bible, that God created the Heavens and the Earth and as such they are a testimony to Him. It is also obvious that God has given us the sun, and the moon to mark time. Beyond this, everything he said is a stretch at best.

 

[rusmeister]

Dollar, I wonder if you yourself would try reading something?

http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/everlasting_man.pdf

(This incredible book, by G.K. Chesterton, is in the public domain, and is probably available from a major bookstore or inter-library loan.)

At least the introduction and a couple of chapters, although for my complete respect you would have to read the entire book 'with an open mind', as you say.

The book does not immediately come to a point regarding astrology or paganism, but it does bear completely on your reasoning.

Any comments you have on it would be interesting for folks to hear!

 

[Macarius]

Your argument is theological,

No, my argument is a theodicy - a speculative explanation meant to match observable phenomena in an attempt to show that they are consistent with religious belief. It's a subset of religious philosophy.

My second point (the one you quoted above) is epistomoloy - another subset of philosophy. Debate it point for point or I will have to assume you agree that, since we are both able to offer plausible explanations (theodicies) for the development of the Christian faith that we are at a wash and should seek other avenues for discussing our differences.

which is mans attempt to understand God. How can we understand God?

We understand God by the revelation of God through His own Word - this is one of the significant points of the Incarnation. Our Lord is no prophet nor theologian. He is God Himself telling us about Himself.

The theologens tell us what Gods 'will' is and we blindly follow there orders.

Not blindly. That's an ad-hoc attack. Stop. I have a brain and use it quite frequently. I don't believe any theologian to be infallible but weigh their opinions against what I have recieved and experienced within the Church and within my own spiritual life.

Did God tell thoes theologens that there conclusions about the Bible were correct? or are they just asumming they are correct?

Did God tell you that your history is correct? Or do you just assume it is because it "makes sense" to you? You accuse the theologians of being speculative, yet place a lot of stock in very very speculative interpretations of history. Were you THERE? Did you SEE IT? Then you fall to your own criteria. We're all just a bunch of people attempting to get this right, and accusing someone else of speculation in an attempt at a forming a defeater out of it puts you in danger of the same accusation.

Also, I understand that, in a general sense, God did guide the composition of His scriptures, and revealed in His Son Jesus Christ the key to interpreting them: interpret them through the lense of Christ's death and resurrection. The theologians, mystics, bishops, etc attempt to do this and succeed and fail in varying degrees. Ultimately, the core of the truth has been demonstratably preserved from the Apostolic age until this one, so I have no reason to doubt that it was the revelation of Christ Himself. So YES, God DID tell them how to interpret it.

I was raised Catholic don't think I have no clue
about any of this.

It is good that you have the integrity to own up to your own doubts and confusion.

I'v been in your world view before. I'v seen the world though thoes lenses.

Ummm... I'm not Catholic. So no, you haven't seen the world through my world view. Furthermore, what makes you think your experience with the general christian world view corresponds to mine? Wouldn't that be the fallacy of analogy? Or a false assumption?

Why exactly is it so hard to find God?

There are two responses to this, one is a theodicy, the other is a "short rejoinder." Why is it so difficult to find God? Because God has a good reason not to make Himself evident in a way satisfactory to the majority of contemporary agnostics and atheists. (That's the short rejoinder).

The theodicy is an attempt to explain what that reason might possibly be. The short answer is "because your sin prevents you from seeing Him." The longer answer is because God, if He were to make His presence evident, would be rewarding behavior that warrants no reward. God's presence is not merely a sensory thing - it is an experience. If God were present, we'd have no reason to change our behavior nor to seek Him, and if we are ever to truly repent we must have that sort of desperation displayed by the Publican beating His cheast before God. Easy answers do not create this sort desperation. His absence also preserves free will by granting just enough light for those who wish to see, and just enough darkness for those of a contrary disposition.

Finally, God has made Himself manifest and evident to any number of people. Your real question is why He hasn't done so for you - and that isn't a philosophical inquiry - that's a personal call for pain and frustration that is better handled by a priest. I don't know your personal situation nor why you have been unable to find God. I can guarantee you, though, that ceasing to search is the one sure-fire way to make certain you never find.

We are taught we need to go to church in order to be closer to God. It really does make us feel like we are closer doesn't it. With all that visual aid it gives us and the group feeling of purpose.

Again, you are assuming your own experience applies, and are providing a (natural) explanation for something when a spiritual explanation could just as easily suffice. Is it not possible that those feelings have a spiritual dimmension to them? That you feel like you are closer because you ARE closer? How do you KNOW that isn't the correct explanation? Again - only our preconcieved notions about the nature of Church and God would determine which of these two explanations we accept and the issue is a wash.

For the record - I do encounter God in my worship. Perhaps the problem is that you went to a Catholic church and not an Orthodox one?

If you look around at the world, you'll see things aren't what they say they are. We are being lied to by thoes in power and its a lie most of us are believing. Thoes in power don't mind. It gives them power over us. It makes us weak and them strong.

That's called paranoia and is better handled by a professional psychiatrist than an interenet forum poster.

Wake up to the world around you.

Wake up to your own hypocrisy!

Agian I say I respect your opinions. I am sorry if i got a little carried away up there. Just trying to start a little critical thinking on the matter at hand.

I would appreciate a critical reply (not a rhetorical one like the small rant you posted) to my critical response. What makes your explanation, your "de jure" attack to borrow Dr. Plantinga's phrase, any more acceptable than my explanation? You haven't provided a single reason for accepting your view, merely asserted it and written some rhetoric explaining the emotional force with which you hold it.

I will offer you this: do not give up your search, even if it takes you far from Christianity. Pursue truth, pursue love, pursue God, and I have faith that He will find you.

Cheers,
Macarius