Struggling to grasp.....

[Lukaris]

I found out that St. Augustine was struggling for the faith against Arians, Donatists, reckless students of Pelagius etc. We should all know what the Arians represented. The Donatists must have had some extreme factions since there were some who wanted to assassinate St. Augustine. I refer to reckless students of Pelagius ( Julian of Eclanum for ex.) who denied grace in salvation. It is my theory that Pelagius himself did not teach that but in the chaos he was branded with it & Augustine took issue with that.

 

[bmjackson]

that assumes the Spirit’s power to affirm the truth is based on our level of illumination.

Correct, only the pure in heart see God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Correct, only the pure in heart see God.

correct, like St Maximos the Confessor, the great champion at the 6th Council.

 

[bmjackson]

Methinks I have happened upon Orthodoxy's dirty little secret:

That by the time of the ecumenical councils, the number of bishops who had been illumined, let alone deified, was so small, that a consensus of those who were still psychologically sick, and not able to hear God clearly, was all they had.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Methinks I have happened upon Orthodoxy's dirty little secret:

That by the time of the ecumenical councils, the number of bishops who had been illumined, let alone deified, was so small, that a consensus of those who were still psychologically sick, and not able to hear God clearly, was all they had.

methinks you just gave a baseless assertion devoid of actual evidence. methinks you also just showed how little you understand how the Orthodox view the Ecumenical Councils.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Methinks that is a pummeling

methinks you just gave a baseless assertion devoid of actual evidence. methinks you also just showed how little you understand how the Orthodox view the Ecumenical Councils.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Methinks that is a pummeling

methanks you

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But soft! Be thou wise to take heed of compliments going to thy head amidst this sublime Lenten sojourn thus creating the folly of hubris! Be thou humble, padre!

methanks you

 

[bmjackson]

methinks you just gave a baseless assertion devoid of actual evidence. methinks you also just showed how little you understand how the Orthodox view the Ecumenical Councils.

It is only baseless for anyone who cannot use deductive reasoning. Even in NT times, Paul had enemies of his gospel ie the same one as Orthodoxy, that the church is a hospital when those who follow the three steps of healing, are able to come into fellowship with God. He said that the flesh is against the Spirit.

If we can assume that it was no longer to be expected for bishops to be deified, then Orthodoxy had already fallen and was but a shadow of what God intended.

The road is narrow and few are saved.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It is only baseless for anyone who cannot use deductive reasoning. Even in NT times, Paul had enemies of his gospel ie the same one as Orthodoxy, that the church is a hospital when those who follow the three steps of healing, are able to come into fellowship with God. He said that the flesh is against the Spirit.

If we can assume that it was no longer to be expected for bishops to be deified, then Orthodoxy had already fallen and was but a shadow of what God intended.

The road is narrow and few are saved.

by all means, keep showing your ignorance of our Church. it’s not baseless because of a refusal to use deduction. it’s baseless because you clearly don’t know how Orthodoxy views the Councils. plus, deductive reasoning only works if your premises are true. yours aren’t.

you also make a wrong assumption about deification, as deified men and women are still with us today.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But soft! Be thou wise to take heed of compliments going to thy head amidst this sublime Lenten sojourn thus creating the folly of hubris! Be thou humble, padre!

ah! Pride, thou vile and wretched knave of all vices!

 

[bmjackson]

Then I wish you would give me names. I asked Fr Peter Heers if he knew of one who could be spiritual guide (best to find one who is qualified) but he did not answer.

But that does not address the issue, and I am afraid that you Father are not doing so.

A question you have not answered: when did it become un-necessary for a bishop to be deified? Or are you saying that it has never been a requirement? Fr John Romanides thinks it was at one time.

I know more about Orthodoxy than you think.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Then I wish you would give me names. I asked Fr Peter Heers if he knew of one who could be spiritual guide (best to find one who is qualified) but he did not answer.

But that does not address the issue, and I am afraid that you Father are not doing so.

A question you have not answered: when did it become un-necessary for a bishop to be deified? Or are you saying that it has never been a requirement? Fr John Romanides thinks it was at one time.

I know more about Orthodoxy than you think.

you’re asking the wrong question. it is a requirement, but to get the answer you need to read what the saints say before you read Fr John.

and if you want a living one I would say Fr Zacharias of Essex or Patriarch Ilia of Georgia to name two.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious"---Obius the Elder

ah! Pride, thou vile and wretched knave of all vices!

 

[ArmyMatt]

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious"---Obius the Elder

to Luke the recruit

 

[bmjackson]

I have listened very carefully, to Fr Zacharias of Essex speaking on Purgation, Illumination and Deification on YouTube.

He says that, during the first stage we have the presence of God with us, but in the second stage, it is removed and we are in the 'desert' situation. We are to continue as though we still have His presence and not become discouraged and then ----slowly, slowly, we will reap the rewards of it and become like Christ. He repeats slowly, slowly, a number of times to emphasis it.

This is just about the same as all denominations teach and which is called Gradual Sanctification (apart from what remains of the original Methodism). There is no difference in the details - different types of communion, Bible study, sermons, Divine Liturgy. As God sees the heart, the outward actions are not salvivic.

It is not what Orthodoxy called the Faith handed down, it was not the original understanding which was carried over to Protestantism by such as John Wesley. Illumination comes after a crisis. Our flesh is not able to be improved upon, it is sin and is to be destroyed and not slowly. Crucified.

I dare say you will disagree, as this new interpretation is so widespread. However I would ask you to consider why Orthodoxy is in such a state. They have moved away from the truth and satan has come in.

Once the true church has been sunk, there is nothing left. I will not quote the early fathers to show the difference. I am too ill to do much research atm.

Very sad day for me who thought that there was still a chance.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have listened very carefully, to Fr Zacharias of Essex speaking on Purgation, Illumination and Deification on YouTube.

He says that, during the first stage we have the presence of God with us, but in the second stage, it is removed and we are in the 'desert' situation. We are to continue as though we still have His presence and not become discouraged and then ----slowly, slowly, we will reap the rewards of it and become like Christ. He repeats slowly, slowly, a number of times to emphasis it.

This is just about the same as all denominations teach and which is called Gradual Sanctification (apart from what remains of the original Methodism). There is no difference in the details - different types of communion, Bible study, sermons, Divine Liturgy. As God sees the heart, the outward actions are not salvivic.

It is not what Orthodoxy called the Faith handed down, it was not the original understanding which was carried over to Protestantism by such as John Wesley. Illumination comes after a crisis. Our flesh is not able to be improved upon, it is sin and is to be destroyed and not slowly. Crucified.

I dare say you will disagree, as this new interpretation is so widespread. However I would ask you to consider why Orthodoxy is in such a state. They have moved away from the truth and satan has come in.

Once the true church has been sunk, there is nothing left. I will not quote the early fathers to show the difference. I am too ill to do much research atm.

Very sad day for me who thought that there was still a chance.

I do disagree. St Justin Martyr taught this and he died in the year 165. there is nothing novel about what Fr Zacharias said.

if your point is that you want to showcase your ignorance and attempt to insult us, by all means continue.

 

[bmjackson]

I stand corrected - it is highly unlikely to be a novel interpretation. It's just that it is the only one nowadays as far as I can tell. There has always been opposition to the truth and man likes a scheme whereby he can do something for himself.

I am not insulting Orthodoxy when I say they are the true church. Saying they are not in a wretched state is denial.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I stand corrected - it is highly unlikely to be a novel interpretation. It's just that it is the only one nowadays as far as I can tell. There has always been opposition to the truth and man likes a scheme whereby he can do something for himself.

I am not insulting Orthodoxy when I say they are the true church. Saying they are not in a wretched state is denial.

well, no one cares what you see nowadays.

and the state of Orthodoxy not something you need to tell us. we’re kinda aware of it. and Orthodoxy has been dealing with this wretchedness from the beginning, so that’s not a relevant point.

seriously, what’s your point in this discussion?

 

[bmjackson]

I had some vain hope that there was some hope in theses dark times.

It seems not.