Marion Apparitions : Are their messages anti-biblical ?

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TheyCallMeDavid

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I would like to take the affirmative position that ALL of them are, including the Ones that are approved by the Roman Catholic Church . I would make the opening post showing so, while my Debate Partner would show that they line up with scripture or..are at least neutral and not nullifying scripture in any manner.

Standard Debate Rules apply except each post can be up to 5,000 words in length.

I hope Anastasia , in particular, will accept this challenge...otherwise any Catholic is welcomed to debate this issue with me. Please let me know.

Thanks, David.
 

Athanasias

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I would like to take the affirmative position that ALL of them are, including the Ones that are approved by the Roman Catholic Church . I would make the opening post showing so, while my Debate Partner would show that they line up with scripture or..are at least neutral and not nullifying scripture in any manner.

Standard Debate Rules apply except each post can be up to 5,000 words in length.

I hope Anastasia , in particular, will accept this challenge...otherwise any Catholic is welcomed to debate this issue with me. Please let me know.

Thanks, David.


I am no Anastasia but I will debate it. You should really only debate the ones accepted by the Church though because the ones that are not may actually not be in line with scripture and that is one reason why the Church has not accepted them. :) You should also note that all of them are private revelation which is different from public revelation and not bound on any Catholic to beleive. I hope you make this clear or you would be being dishonest about the apparitions and what the Church teaches about them and I know you do not want to do that do you? :) BTW its just the "Catholic Church" which encompasses both east(such as byzantines and Maronites) and west(Such as Roman rites) and not just the "Roman" Catholic Church. You may also want to work on getting our official name right too since you claim to know so much about us and our theology.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Just please change the name of the debate to something assertive - not a question. This is the second time that a debate has gone on with a question as its topic. You cannot take a positive or negative position on a question.

Topic Proposal: The messages of the Marion Apparitions are anti-biblical.

The affirmative will try to prove that this statement is true. The negative will try to prove that this statement is false. If this is formal debate, then it is not difficult to put this is good form. The topic must be a declarative sentence on which opponents can take sides. Please, adjust this in your thinking. The topic is not a question. It is a position claim.
 
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TheyCallMeDavid

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Just please change the name of the debate to something assertive - not a question. This is the second time that a debate has gone on with a question as its topic. You cannot take a positive or negative position on a question.

Topic Proposal: The messages of the Marion Apparitions are anti-biblical.

The affirmative will try to prove that this statement is true. The negative will try to prove that this statement is false. If this is formal debate, then it is not difficult to put this is good form. The topic must be a declarative sentence on which opponents can take sides. Please, adjust this in your thinking. The topic is not a question. It is a position claim.

No Sir...you CAN defend a positive and negative position to a question, statement made, or issue . People do it all the time on a daily basis when interacting .

As the One who is Proposing a Debate, I reserve the right to put the Title into a statement or question form. I would ask you to not be obsessive in your demands. Thanks.
 
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TheyCallMeDavid

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I am no Anastasia but I will debate it. You should really only debate the ones accepted by the Church though because the ones that are not may actually not be in line with scripture and that is one reason why the Church has not accepted them. :) You should also note that all of them are private revelation which is different from public revelation and not bound on any Catholic to beleive. I hope you make this clear or you would be being dishonest about the apparitions and what the Church teaches about them and I know you do not want to do that do you? :) BTW its just the "Catholic Church" which encompasses both east(such as byzantines and Maronites) and west(Such as Roman rites) and not just the "Roman" Catholic Church. You may also want to work on getting our official name right too since you claim to know so much about us and our theology.



Don't worry, Ill let everyone know which Marion Apparitions are approved by the Catholic Church , but we shall examine the ones that aren't formally approved yet are still believed in by many many millions of Catholics today and who are totally trusting in what was said . Lastly, some of the Apparitions WERE publicly addressed .. that is... more than just One person heard the message. So, we will be covering the whole gammit behind Marion Apparitions with emphasis on the messages given and we will compare the messages to what scripture says to see if there is compatibility.

If you want to debate this, when are you available ? I can make the first post .
 
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yonah_mishael

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No Sir...you CAN defend a positive and negative position to a question, statement made, or issue . People do it all the time on a daily basis when interacting .

As the One who is Proposing a Debate, I reserve the right to put the Title into a statement or question form. I would ask you to not be obsessive in your demands. Thanks.

I don't think it's obsessive at all. It is the standard way to propose a debate topic. Have you ever watched a formal debate? If so, which debate have you seen where the topic was presented as a question and not as a statement on a position?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Hey guys,

I have not issue using a question as a debate title; I clarify in the topic and the stipulations who will be taking the affirmative position and who will be taking the negative.

If, however, we would like to debate the topic "A Formal Debate Title Must Be In The Form Of A Statement, Not A Question"; start a proposal thread, and I'll set it up for you.

In this particular thread further discussion of this "topic" is now considered off topic.

OK?:)
 
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TheyCallMeDavid

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I don't think it's obsessive at all. It is the standard way to propose a debate topic. Have you ever watched a formal debate? If so, which debate have you seen where the topic was presented as a question and not as a statement on a position?

I have watched many a formal debate live, and on TV. On TV, I have witnessed a Debate in the form of a question . I don't remember when or the topic but it was on WSRE-TV and there were 2 teams of 2 each representing their particular slant.

How bout we do this ? : When you formulate a Debate Title, you term it as you wish...and ill do the same just so long as we get the issue across ? Does this sound fair and reasonable to you...or.... are you the obsessive sort who lives your life in a rigid way that you don't allow for grace being dispensed to Others ?
 
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Athanasias

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Don't worry, Ill let everyone know which Marion Apparitions are approved by the Catholic Church , but we shall examine the ones that aren't formally approved yet are still believed in by many many millions of Catholics today and who are totally trusting in what was said . Lastly, some of the Apparitions WERE publicly addressed .. that is... more than just One person heard the message. So, we will be covering the whole gammit behind Marion Apparitions with emphasis on the messages given and we will compare the messages to what scripture says to see if there is compatibility.

If you want to debate this, when are you available ? I can make the first post .


What part of NO do you not understand? I will not debate any apparition that is not formally accepted by the magisterium as authentic. I assume you want to debate medjugorje. Well even I have questions about that one and the Church has not made a formal issue on it yet. There is alot of either supernatural or preternatural activity there that is either from the Devil or God.

I will not engage in a debate on apparitions not authenticated by the Magisterium. David do you realize this debate of your is fruitless because all of them even the approved ones such as our Lady of of Lourdes(which was just approved of by the Church for the 66th miracle of healing this year so I think you would want to debunk that one especially since Mary told the Nun at that apparition that she was the immaculate conception(ie conceived and remained sinless), do not have to be held to or believed by Catholics since they are not part of public revelation(scripture and apostolic tradition) but rather private revelation. In fact many Catholics do not hold to these nor are they held accountable to believe them at all.

I do not think you actually realize that do you? So to educated Catholics this topic proposal looks really silly. Then again you did a great job of making yourself look silly in the last debate we had too(because of your lack of knowledge of what we actually teach as all you know is Jack Chicks take on us) so I know that will not stop you!
 
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TheyCallMeDavid

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What part of NO do you not understand? I will not debate any apparition that is not formally accepted by the magisterium as authentic. I assume you want to debate medjugorje. Well even I have questions about that one and the Church has not made a formal issue on it yet. There is alot of either supernatural or preternatural activity there that is either from the Devil or God.

I will not engage in a debate on apparitions not authenticated by the Magisterium. David do you realize this debate of your is fruitless because all of them even the approved ones such as our Lady of of Lourdes(which was just approved of by the Church for the 66th miracle of healing this year so I think you would want to debunk that one especially since Mary told the Nun at that apparition that she was the immaculate conception(ie conceived and remained sinless), do not have to be held to or believed by Catholics since they are not part of public revelation(scripture and apostolic tradition) but rather private revelation. In fact many Catholics do not hold to these nor are they held accountable to believe them at all.

I do not think you actually realize that do you? So to educated Catholics this topic proposal looks really silly. Then again you did a great job of making yourself look silly in the last debate we had too(because of your lack of knowledge of what we actually teach as all you know is Jack Chicks take on us) so I know that will not stop you!

a. I understand what 'No' means...but frankly, all you said in the previous post is that ' I really shouldn't discuss non approved Apparitions' --- THAT statement isn't a concrete 'No I (you) wont' my Friend.

b. I didn't feel silly in our last debate whatsoever ; in fact, you supported many of my assertions that I backed up with the Catechism...only you fluffed it up to make it look palatable for consumption . So, I wouldn't pat yourself on the back so hard.

c. I don't read Jack Chicks Tracts for your info. If he has an Author who used to be a long time Catholic that wrote a book on the major formal Doctrines of the Catholic Church versus the Bible...and lists what each says for comparison to which I verified personally....then that is credible and admissible as far as im concerned. What the Author presented in his particular book on the subject, is in fact , true and in our last Debate you spent considerable time trying to justify the Catholic slant on these disputes and never flat out denied what I offered up . (How could you when I presented the most current Catechism passages, verbatim) .

d. Finally, since it is my Debate Proposal...I get to propose what subject matter to discuss ; and I want to also examine the non-approved Apparition teachings that so many Faithful Catholics believe and develop a true hope in ...as well as the Churches approved Apparitions . And I will distinguish between the two of course.

If you aren't up for the challenge, then pass on it but please stop belly-aching ; surely whining isn't endorsed by the Catholic Church, is it ?!
 
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siamus2k14

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...I seriously hope you are not listening to it.

That ain't nothing but a trick of the devil!

(deception isn't pretty.)



and check this out.

If you see an apparition of anyone or anything, that shouldn't be taken as "gospel" truth.

You know why?

Your mind could just be playing tricks on you!



...
 
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Athanasias

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...I seriously hope you are not listening to it.

That ain't nothing but a trick of the devil!

(deception isn't pretty.)



and check this out.

If you see an apparition of anyone or anything, that shouldn't be taken as "gospel" truth.

You know why?

Your mind could just be playing tricks on you!



...

That's funny coming from a Pentecostal!
 
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Athanasias

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a. I understand what 'No' means...but frankly, all you said in the previous post is that ' I really shouldn't discuss non approved Apparitions' --- THAT statement isn't a concrete 'No I (you) wont' my Friend.

b. I didn't feel silly in our last debate whatsoever ; in fact, you supported many of my assertions that I backed up with the Catechism...only you fluffed it up to make it look palatable for consumption . So, I wouldn't pat yourself on the back so hard.

c. I don't read Jack Chicks Tracts for your info. If he has an Author who used to be a long time Catholic that wrote a book on the major formal Doctrines of the Catholic Church versus the Bible...and lists what each says for comparison to which I verified personally....then that is credible and admissible as far as im concerned. What the Author presented in his particular book on the subject, is in fact , true and in our last Debate you spent considerable time trying to justify the Catholic slant on these disputes and never flat out denied what I offered up . (How could you when I presented the most current Catechism passages, verbatim) .

d. Finally, since it is my Debate Proposal...I get to propose what subject matter to discuss ; and I want to also examine the non-approved Apparition teachings that so many Faithful Catholics believe and develop a true hope in ...as well as the Churches approved Apparitions . And I will distinguish between the two of course.

If you aren't up for the challenge, then pass on it but please stop belly-aching ; surely whining isn't endorsed by the Catholic Church, is it ?!


David you know absolutely nothing about Catholicism and you really think you do. How sad. You do not own the Catechism nor have read any of the official Church documents(such as Nicea, Trent, Vatican II) or any encyclicals by the Popes. And worst off when they are quoted to you in a debate to prove you wrong you just ignore them and listen to Jack Chicks friends book on Catholicism.

All you know is what Rick Jones tells you about Catholicism in his book called "Understanding Roman Catholicism" which is false. Wake up man, Rick Jones has not a clue. Now even most protestants know this stuff and know Mr. Jones is full of bologna. That is why in formal debate often times you make yourself look silly when saying things that are not true about the Church or making false accusations based on what Rick Jones book tells you. Even many protestants know what Mr. Jones says if false on many levels because they have been dialoging with Catholics and reading actual Catholic documents for over 40 years now. You cannot hide that!!!!

When you are ready to really study the actual documents and not just quote books from "Rick Jones" and when you want to debate real authentic Catholicism(which encompasses both east and west) and real "infallible" dogma's that all Catholics must hold to and believe are true without error such as Mary's Sinlessness, Her bodily Assumption into heaven, Her perpetual virginity and Her role as Mother of God then let me know I will be happy to engage you using alot of sacred scripture, logic, history, miracles , and even negative evidence in those things.

But I am sure instead of reading actual Catholic documents and studying the early Catholic Church you will just continue your ignorance based on Rick Jones(Jack Chicks good buddy) quote book of Catholicism. Its a darn shame. At least most other knowledgable protestants I debate have read the actual documents of the Catholic faith ie primary sources and disagree so they know what we teach and know what they really disagree with us on. You have no clue because all you know is what Rick Jones tells you.

So find someone else to perpetuate your debate of the caricature of Catholicism with. What a waste of time.

Better yet Why don't we just take Rick Jones Book and debate that and I will show how one sided and deceiving it is. I will show you how he only gives you a few verses of the CCC and bible and forgets to look at the rest of the bible and CCC in context. He is a deceiver! I can prove that.

I tell you what if you can get your hero Rick to do it then I will debate Rock Jones in front of the largest crowd of protestants there is face to face and prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is a huge deceiver and only quotes parts of the bible and Catholic teachings while leaving the rest out to give false impressions and fool others into his lies. I am not afraid of this mans lying Heart. The Holy Spirit will judge him on his lies and he know this. I am not afraid to stand up to that man who has perpetuated more lies then many about Christ church.
 
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TheyCallMeDavid

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David you know absolutely nothing about Catholicism and you really think you do. How sad. You do not own the Catechism nor have read any of the official Church documents(such as Nicea, Trent, Vatican II) or any encyclicals by the Popes. And worst off when they are quoted to you in a debate to prove you wrong you just ignore them and listen to Jack Chicks friends book on Catholicism.

All you know is what Rick Jones tells you about Catholicism in his book called "Understanding Roman Catholicism" which is false. Wake up man, Rick Jones has not a clue. Now even most protestants know this stuff and know Mr. Jones is full of bologna. That is why in formal debate often times you make yourself look silly when saying things that are not true about the Church or making false accusations based on what Rick Jones book tells you. Even many protestants know what Mr. Jones says if false on many levels because they have been dialoging with Catholics and reading actual Catholic documents for over 40 years now. You cannot hide that!!!!

When you are ready to really study the actual documents and not just quote books from "Rick Jones" and when you want to debate real authentic Catholicism(which encompasses both east and west) and real "infallible" dogma's that all Catholics must hold to and believe are true without error such as Mary's Sinlessness, Her bodily Assumption into heaven, Her perpetual virginity and Her role as Mother of God then let me know I will be happy to engage you using alot of sacred scripture, logic, history, miracles , and even negative evidence in those things.

But I am sure instead of reading actual Catholic documents and studying the early Catholic Church you will just continue your ignorance based on Rick Jones(Jack Chicks good buddy) quote book of Catholicism. Its a darn shame. At least most other knowledgable protestants I debate have read the actual documents of the Catholic faith ie primary sources and disagree so they know what we teach and know what they really disagree with us on. You have no clue because all you know is what Rick Jones tells you.

So find someone else to perpetuate your debate of the caricature of Catholicism with. What a waste of time.

Better yet Why don't we just take Rick Jones Book and debate that and I will show how one sided and deceiving it is. I will show you how he only gives you a few verses of the CCC and bible and forgets to look at the rest of the bible and CCC in context. He is a deceiver! I can prove that.

I tell you what if you can get your hero Rick to do it then I will debate Rock Jones in front of the largest crowd of protestants there is face to face and prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is a huge deceiver and only quotes parts of the bible and Catholic teachings while leaving the rest out to give false impressions and fool others into his lies. I am not afraid of this mans lying Heart. The Holy Spirit will judge him on his lies and he know this. I am not afraid to stand up to that man who has perpetuated more lies then many about Christ church.

Nope...I own the Catechism / Ive read Vatican 2 / ive broken bread with Priests and Catholic Scholars in the past for lunch / ive got Debate Tapes and Videos of Fr. Pacwa debating Dr. Walter Martin / ive got lots of Catholic Customers / Ive been to Catholic Services including Mass / Ive heard Catholics thank 'Jesus AND Mary' about various things / Ive been to online Catholic Forums / Ive watched EWTN on TV many times / and I don't subscribe to Chick Tracts .

I know enough to conclude without any doubt whatsoever, that, the RCC is a slick counterfeit and has a different Gospel .

You said some rather unkind things about my Person in your post, and im sure this would be considered uncharitable sin ; so , im wondering what sort of expiation penance you will be performing in order to make amends in accordance to your Churches doctrinal standards (?) . As far as my part goes....Ill go ahead and forgive you for it but I don't think you should keep on ranting lest you go down the wrong road once again.
 
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