A SECOND TEMPLE IN EGYPT:THE EVIDENCE FOR THE ZADOKITE TEMPLE OF ONIAS

daq

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That illustration is missing an important geographic area called yosef's canal. It branches westerly from the Nile south of the delta.

View attachment 346602

I suppose you can imagine all you want that my point was to include all of the critical places on a map of Egypt, including "yosef's canal", but I must leave you to your imagination at this point and simply tell myself that either you were not able to perceive the point, or that perhaps you simply are not interested in the actual point that was intended. I am obviously not interested in mapping out all of the critical locations on a map of Egypt here: one needs only to look at the map of the Nile which was posted and the star map in the same image file right next to the map of the Nile.

Here are the background references from the scripture for what I said:

Ezekiel 16:26 KJV
26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.

Ezekiel 29:2-3 KJV
2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:
3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon [tanniym/tanniyn] that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Ezekiel 32:2 KJV
2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale [tanniym/tanniyn, dragon] in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers.

And I will leave you to search out the belly references on your own. :)
 
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be(t)et lamed resh

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I suppose you can imagine all you want that my point was to include all of the critical places on a map of Egypt, including "yosef's canal", but I must leave you to your imagination at this point and simply tell myself that either you were not able to perceive the point, or that perhaps you simply are not interested in the actual point that was intended. I am obviously not interested in mapping out all of the critical locations on a map of Egypt here: one needs only to look at the map of the Nile which was posted and the star map in the same image file right next to the map of the Nile.

Here are the background references from the scripture for what I said:

Ezekiel 16:26 KJV
26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.

Ezekiel 29:2-3 KJV
2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:
3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon [tanniym/tanniyn] that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Ezekiel 32:2 KJV
2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale [tanniym/tanniyn, dragon] in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers.

And I will leave you to search out the belly references on your own. :)
I understood your references and agree with the exegesis. Even so a greco constellation has little relevance except in paradoia. Yes they intended the shape of stars to reflect a serpent and the nile. The greco story also ingratiates the one that had its head injured [revelation] and then healed by another serpent with an herb.

Thought it important to share a bit more history related to zadokites in egypt. Goshen is likely where they were based. And I presume that most reading here know that yochanon [john the baptizer] was of the zadokite lineage as fact.
 
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I understood your references and agree with the exegesis. Even so a greco constellation has little relevance except in paradoia. Yes they intended the shape of stars to reflect a serpent and the nile. The greco story also reflects the one that had its head injured [revelation] and then healed by another serpent with an herb.

Thought it important to share a bit more history related to zadokites in egypt. Goshen is likely where they were based.

Yes, and Avaris, (from where most of the Hyksos kings ruled), is right in the midst of the area known as Goshen in the scripture. However none of this was my point, as you may see, the map of Egypt which I posted is missing just about everything except for the Nile river and the dividing line between lower and upper Egypt. This again causes me to suspect that perhaps there may be somewhat of a language barrier here: for rather than suggest that my map was inferior perhaps it would have been better worded just to add your observation without suggesting the map I posted wasn't good enough for what you wished to interject into the discussion. Understand? My map wasn't just missing "yosef's canal" but rather almost everything, and that is because your observation has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Please further explain what you mean by "greco constellation" so I can be sure what you are speaking about. Are you suggesting that because Serpens Caput is a Greek constellation that it has no bearing on these things? Not all of the constellations are the same, this is true, but the most visibly recognizable were essentially the same even though they did not have the same names in different languages and cultures. Serpens Caput was a serpent or a dragon either way, no matter what the Hebrews called it, and they did indeed recognize this constellation, and they likely recognized it together with Corona Borealis, as the head of the dragon, (unlike the "greco constellation", or Greek constellation, if indeed that is what you mean).

There has already been some discussion here in another thread concerning Corona Borealis, and in very ancient times it formed one of the groups of stars which role over and never set, (as spoken of in Sefer Henok), and this is because that constellation was closer to the pole star in ancient times, close enough that the constellation didn't set but rather circled in the heavens around the pole star. And at one point Alpha Draconis, (Thuban, in the northern constellation of Draco), was itself the pole star: so there were multiple serpent symbols in the heavens that were close to the north pole recognizable by all the tribes of the earth in the northern hemisphere, regardless of the words they used for a serpent or a dragon in their own languages. Calling something Greek doesn't nullify the possibility that it may be spoken about in the scripture: if that is your argument, it is invalid, imo.
 
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I remembered what someone said about the personal info that they wanted for the download and that I, at one time, had a membership at Academeia.com. So I figured the data brokers our government refuses to protect us from already have my stuff, so I may as well download it for everyone to share.
Thank you so much. This is a rich source of information. I have been working very hard, with little sleep this week, but I've been taking every opportunity to read through this, here and there. I will probably have to read it a few more times, once I'm finished, before doing a even deeper study on the information contained.

I'm taking this time to post a relevant verse that was referenced, from the Septuagint

Isaiah 19:

19 In that day there shall be an altar to the Lord in the land of the Egyptians, and a pillar to the Lord by its border.

20 And it shall be for a sign to the Lord for ever in the land of Egypt: for they shall presently cry to the Lord by reason of them that afflict them, and he shall send them a man who shall save them; he shall judge and save them.

21 And the Lord shall be known to the Egyptians, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day; and they shall offer sacrifices, and shall vow vows to the Lord, and pay .

22 And the Lord shall smite the Egyptians with a stroke, and shall completely heal them: and they shall return to the Lord, and he shall hear them, and thoroughly heal them.

23 In that day there shall be a way from Egypt to the Assyrians, and the Assyrians shall enter into Egypt, and the Egyptians shall go to the Assyrians, and the Egyptians shall serve the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be third with the Egyptians and the Assyrians, blessed in the land which the Lord of hosts has blessed,

25 saying, Blessed be my people that is in Egypt, and that is among the Assyrians, and Israel mine inheritance.


19 +
τη
[In]
ημέρα εκείνη
that day
έσται
there will be
θυσιαστήριον
an altar
τω
to the
κυρίω
LORD
εν
in
χώρα
[the] region
Αιγυπτίων
of the Egyptians;
και
and
στήλη
[there will be] a monument
προς
at
το όριον αυτής
its border
τω
to the
κυρίω
LORD.
20 + και
And
έσται
it will be
εις
for
σημείον
a sign
εις
into
τον
the
αιώνα
eon
κυρίω
[to the] LORD
εν
in
χώρα
[the] place
Αιγύπτου
of Egypt;
ότι
for
κεκράξονται
they shall cry out
προς
to
κύριον
[the] LORD
διά
because of
τους
the
θλίβοντας
ones afflicting
αυτούς
them;
και
and
αποστελεί
he shall send
αυτοίς
to them
άνθρωπον
a man
ος
who
σώσει
will deliver
αυτούς
them;
κρίνων
by judging
σώσει
he shall deliver
αυτούς
them.
21 + και
And
γνωστός
[ made known
έσται
will be
κύριος
[the] LORD]
τοις
to the
Αιγυπτίοις
Egyptians;
και
and
γνώσονται
[ shall know
οι
the
Αιγύπτιοι
Egyptians]
_ 51
כ 20 ἐν τούτῳ + νίκα 23 - Isaiah
τον
the
κύριον
LORD
εν
in
τη ημέρα εκείνη
that day;
και
and
ποιήσουσι
they shall make
θυσίαν
a sacrifice [offering]
και
and
δώρον
a gift [offering];
και
and
εύξονται
they shall vow
ευχάς
vows
τω
to the
κυρίω
LORD,
και
and
αποδώσουσι
shall render [them].
22 + και
And
πατάξει κύριος
[the] LORD shall strike
τους
the
Αιγυπτίους
Egyptians
πληγή
with a calamity,
και
and
ιάσεται
he shall heal
αυτούς
them;
και
and
επιστραφήσονται
they shall be turned
προς
towards
κύριον
[the] LORD;
και
and
εισακούσεται
he shall listen to
αυτών
them,
και
and
ιάσεται
he shall heal
αυτούς
them
ιάσει
with healing.
23 + τη
[In]
ημέρα εκείνη
that day
έσται
there will be
οδός
a way
Αιγύπτου
of Egypt
προς
to
Ασσυρίους
[the] Assyrians;
και
and
εισελεύσονται
[ shall enter
Ασσύριοι
[the] Assyrians]
εις
into
Αίγυπτον
Egypt,
και
and
Αιγύπτιοι
Egypt
πορεύσονται
will go
προς
to
Ασσυρίους
[the] Assyrians,
και
and
δουλεύσουσιν
[ shall serve
οι
the
Αιγύπτιοι
Egyptians]
τοις
to the
Ασσυρίοις
Assyrians.
24 + τη
[In]
ημέρα εκείνη
that day
έσται Ισραήλ
Israel will be
τρίτος
third
εν
with
τοις
the
Αιγυπτίοις
Egyptians
και
and
εν
with
τοις
the
Ασσυρίοις
Assyrians,
ευλογημένος
being blessed
εν
in
τη
the
γη
land;
25 + ην
which
ευλόγησε
[ blessed
κύριος
[the] LORD
σαβαώθ
of Hosts],
λέγων
saying,
ευλογημένος
Blessed be
ο λαός μου
my people,
ο
the
εν
one in
Αιγύπτω
Egypt,
και
and
ο
the one
εν
among
Ασσυρίοις
[the] Assyrians,
και
and
η κληρονομία μου
my inheritance
Ισραήλ
Israel
 
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Note: The following is an unfounded memory for which I cannot find the citation: It is that both at the recommendation of the Herodian government in Judea caused the subsequent commission by the Roman government of Josephus; he was to record a history of the Roman 'facts' concerning Judea. And as I recall, every record submitted to Rome was subject to the Roman perspective, even so much so as to 'explain' the facts. Hence, this may explain the dueling accounts on many topics by Josephus, including this one, concerning the Temple in Egypt.
I began to see problems with the "History," as reported by Josephus, many years ago. It then came to my attention that he was under the scrutiny of Rome. For these reasons I treat the works of Josephus with the same skepticism as I do the works of the majority of Historians. I understand that that there are revisionist aspects to history that are a result of biased perspectives, the regurgitation of misinformation, the motivation to generate propaganda to support agendas, and even coercion.
 
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@daq

At one point you inquired about the following:
...I am reminded of a certain celestial observatory you brought forth in your writings and hope to see the incorporation of it in this discussion, later on down the pike as it where. It seems a likely topic where calendars and scripture are concerned.
Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you. Does the following ring any bells? From a site entitled in part, 'giza-heavenly-spheres-the-finger-of-elohim'

  • The image files are taken from the free open source Stellarium.org planetarium software, and I plug them here not only for the image files herein, but also for offering such a great open source product. The year chosen for the image files is the date of the flood according to the Septuagint-based chronology of the world, which chronology may be found at the end of Sefer Henok, that is, 3711BC on the proleptic Gregorian calendar, (which is -3710 on the astronomy software because there is a zero year in the calculation at the changeover between the eras).

  • The location view is the Gizeh Plateau, atop the head of the Sphinx, (45 meters above sea level), from the position of the hole in the top of the head of the Sphinx which indeed appears to be an astronomical observation deck with a ledge down inside the hole. There are some very old image files floating around online where a man may be seen standing in this hole, leaving just enough of his upper body above the hole so that an ancient astronomer would have been able to set up his instruments on the top of the head of the Sphinx, standing perched in this hole, and observe the stars from this location.
There is a great deal written about the Sphinx and it's mysteries. One such article is found in Smithsonian Magazine.

Included below is an excerpt that contains some interesting details hinting at it's solar alignment and possible intended uses. If one has a penchant for sundials and solar calendars, this might prove intriguing. But I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that point.

The full article can be found at Uncovering Secrets of the Sphinx

The dates of it's proposed construction, although speculative, may prove interesting.
Uncovering the Secrets of the Sphinx said:
Exactly what Khafre wanted the Sphinx to do for him or his kingdom is a matter of debate, but Lehner has theories about that, too, based partly on his work at the Sphinx Temple. Remnants of the temple walls are visible today in front of the Sphinx. They surround a courtyard enclosed by 24 pillars. The temple plan is laid out on an east-west axis, clearly marked by a pair of small niches or sanctuaries, each about the size of a closet. The Swiss archaeologist Herbert Ricke, who studied the temple in the late 1960s, concluded the axis symbolized the movements of the sun; an east-west line points to where the sun rises and sets twice a year at the equinoxes, halfway between midsummer and midwinter. Ricke further argued that each pillar represented an hour in the sun’s daily circuit.

Lehner spotted something perhaps even more remarkable. If you stand in the eastern niche during sunset at the March or September equinoxes, you see a dramatic astronomical event: the sun appears to sink into the shoulder of the Sphinx and, beyond that, into the south side of the Pyramid of Khafre on the horizon. “At the very same moment,” Lehner says, “the shadow of the Sphinx and the shadow of the pyramid, both symbols of the king, become merged silhouettes. The Sphinx itself, it seems, symbolized the pharaoh presenting offerings to the sun god in the court of the temple.” Hawass concurs, saying the Sphinx represents Khafre as Horus, the Egyptians’ revered royal falcon god, “who is giving offerings with his two paws to his father, Khufu, incarnated as the sun god, Ra, who rises and sets in that temple.”

Equally intriguing, Lehner discovered that when one stands near the Sphinx during the summer solstice, the sun appears to set midway between the silhouettes of the pyramids of Khafre and Khufu. The scene resembles the hieroglyph akhet, which can be translated as “horizon” but also symbolized the cycle of life and rebirth. “Even if coincidental, it is hard to imagine the Egyptians not seeing this ideogram,” Lehner wrote in the Archive of Oriental Research. “If somehow intentional, it ranks as an example of architectural illusionism on a grand, maybe the grandest, scale.”

If Lehner and Hawass are right, Khafre’s architects arranged for solar events to link the pyramid, Sphinx and temple. Collectively, Lehner describes the complex as a cosmic engine, intended to harness the power of the sun and other gods to resurrect the soul of the pharaoh. This transformation not only guaranteed eternal life for the dead ruler but also sustained the universal natural order, including the passing of the seasons, the annual flooding of the Nile and the daily lives of the people. In this sacred cycle of death and revival, the Sphinx may have stood for many things: as an image of Khafre the dead king, as the sun god incarnated in the living ruler and as guardian of the underworld and the Giza tombs.

But it seems Khafre’s vision was never fully realized. There are signs the Sphinx was unfinished. In 1978, in a corner of the statue’s quarry, Hawass and Lehner found three stone blocks, abandoned as laborers were dragging them to build the Sphinx Temple. The north edge of the ditch surrounding the Sphinx contains segments of bedrock that are only partially quarried. Here the archaeologists also found the remnants of a workman’s lunch and tool kit—fragments of a beer or water jar and stone hammers. Apparently, the workers walked off the job.

The enormous temple-and-Sphinx complex might have been the pharaoh’s resurrection machine, but, Lehner is fond of saying, “nobody turned the key and switched it on.” By the time the Old Kingdom finally broke apart around 2,130 B.C., the desert sands had begun to reclaim the Sphinx. It would sit ignored for the next seven centuries, when it spoke to a young royal.

According to the legend engraved on a pink granite slab between the Sphinx’s paws, the Egyptian prince Thutmose went hunting in the desert, grew tired and lay down in the shade of the Sphinx. In a dream, the statue, calling itself Horemakhet—or Horus-in-the-Horizon, the earliest known Egyptian name for the statue—addressed him. It complained about its ruined body and the encroaching sand. Horemakhet then offered Thutmose the throne in exchange for help.

Whether or not the prince actually had this dream is unknown. But when he became Pharaoh Thutmose IV, he helped introduce a Sphinx-worshiping cult to the New Kingdom (1550-1070 B.C.). Across Egypt, sphinxes appeared everywhere in sculptures, reliefs and paintings, often depicted as a potent symbol of royalty and the sacred power of the sun.
 
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@daq

At one point you inquired about the following:

Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you. Does the following ring any bells? From a site entitled in part, 'giza-heavenly-spheres-the-finger-of-elohim'

  • The image files are taken from the free open source Stellarium.org planetarium software, and I plug them here not only for the image files herein, but also for offering such a great open source product. The year chosen for the image files is the date of the flood according to the Septuagint-based chronology of the world, which chronology may be found at the end of Sefer Henok, that is, 3711BC on the proleptic Gregorian calendar, (which is -3710 on the astronomy software because there is a zero year in the calculation at the changeover between the eras).

  • The location view is the Gizeh Plateau, atop the head of the Sphinx, (45 meters above sea level), from the position of the hole in the top of the head of the Sphinx which indeed appears to be an astronomical observation deck with a ledge down inside the hole. There are some very old image files floating around online where a man may be seen standing in this hole, leaving just enough of his upper body above the hole so that an ancient astronomer would have been able to set up his instruments on the top of the head of the Sphinx, standing perched in this hole, and observe the stars from this location.

Ah yes, and you know what? I went back there and searched for the word "observatory", thinking that might be what you were talking about, but since I didn't actually use that word I figured I was wrong, and if it was important enough you would explain. The funny thing is I just thought of it earlier this evening when I was responding in reply#23 above, concerning the other thread where Corona Borealis was mentioned, (because in that thread I posted a GIF animated image which I had made from the Stellarium software, and it reminded me of your question). If you are interested in the software, it is open source, (free!), and I haven't found any problems with it. Just go to stellarium-dot-org.
 
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I began to see problems with the "History," as reported by Josephus, many years ago. It then came to my attention that he was under the scrutiny of Rome. For these reasons I treat the works of Josephus with the same skepticism as I do the works of the majority of Historians. I understand that that there are revisionist aspects to history that are a result of biased perspectives, the regurgitation of misinformation, the motivation to generate propaganda to support agendas, and even coercion.
I was wondering if the 'Roman imperative' could be determined as far as Josephus was concerned, might that hint as to which of two conflicting accounts might be the more accurate? I also wonder if Josephus, being in the predicament that he was, would not have at least hoped that the native Judean understanding of these matters might have helped to protect his reputation among his countrymen? - Just a thought.
 
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Yahudim

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Ah yes, and you know what? I went back there and searched for the word "observatory", thinking that might be what you were talking about, but since I didn't actually use that word I figured I was wrong, and if it was important enough you would explain. The funny thing is I just thought of it earlier this evening when I was responding in reply#23 above, concerning the other thread where Corona Borealis was mentioned, (because in that thread I posted a GIF animated image which I had made from the Stellarium software, and it reminded me of your question). If you are interested in the software, it is open source, (free!), and I haven't found any problems with it. Just go to stellarium-dot-org.
Good. I had hoped we were on the same page there. As to Stellarium, I recently downloaded it but haven't installed it yet. I building a new machine for very specific purposes. ;)
 
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Good. I had hoped we were on the same page there. As to Stellarium, I recently downloaded it but haven't installed it yet. I building a new machine for very specific purposes. ;)

Whoa, I just found more evidence for the longer LXX chronology: Tell el-Maschuta, this is the most likely location of Pithom according to the LXX chronology. Note in the scripture that this name is only pointed to read as Pithom, and does not contain the yod or the waw, it is three letters, peh, taw, and mem. The Egyptian name for this town was Per Tem or Pi-Tem, and it is in the correct location. Several early archeologists investigated it, and interest grew for a while but waned, and it was basically forgotten in modern times until more recently. Now, after having been fully dug and investigated, it has been determined to have certainly been built by the Hyksos. However, after their rule in northern Egypt came to a close, (about 1550 BC), it was abandoned and left to fall into ruin, and it was uninhabited from that time, about 1550 BC, until about 652 BC when it was rebuilt, almost a thousand years later. So it is no wonder Biblical archeologists are not interested in it: for the time line does not match their conception of when the Exodus was supposed to have occurred.

What this also would mean is that what I have offered previously concerning the Hyksos would be correct: it was the Hyksos who enslaved the Hebrews and forced them to build Pi-Tem, (instead of Pithom which is only pointed that way), and it was built in the correct location where it should have been found, and if it is the correct location then the timing disallows any other rulers than the Hyksos. And the reason why it laid in ruins for almost a thousand years after the Hyksos period is rather obvious: they were hated by all of Egypt.

Moreover they were Canaanites who adopted some Egyptian gods and practices: which ties into the prophecy to Abraham in Genesis 15, that the descendants of Abraham would return when the iniquity of the Amorites, (who are Canaanites), had come to the full. How much more full can that iniquity be than to enslave the Hebrews and begin to kill every newborn male child?


PS: the wiki article also mentions that Pi-Tem was an agricultural city/town that was growing barley and wheat, and that (grain) silos were found, and that makes it a "store city" as stated in Exodus 1:11, (no doubt for the Hyksos).
 
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Whoa, I just found more evidence for the longer LXX chronology: Tell el-Maschuta, this is the most likely location of Pithom according to the LXX chronology. Note in the scripture that this name is only pointed to read a Pithom, and does not contain the yod or the waw, it is three letters, peh, taw, and mem. The Egyptian name for this town was Per Tem or Pi-Tem, and it is in the correct location. Several early archeologists investigated it, and interest grew for a while but waned, and it was basically forgotten in modern times until more recently. Now, after having been fully dug and investigated, it has been determined to have certainly been built by the Hyksos. However, after their rule in northern Egypt came to a close, (about 1550 BC), it was abandoned and left to fall into ruin, and it was uninhabited from that time, about 1550 BC, until about 652 BC when it was rebuilt, almost a thousand years later. So it is no wonder Biblical archeologists are not interested in it: for the time line does not match their conception of when the Exodus was supposed to have occurred.

What this also would mean is that what I have offered previously concerning the Hyksos would be correct: it was the Hyksos who enslaved the Hebrews and forced them to build Pi-Tem, (instead of Pithom which is only pointed that way), and it was built in the correct location where it should have been found, and if it is the correct location then the timing disallows any other rulers than the Hyksos. And the reason why it laid in ruins for almost a thousand years after the Hyksos period is rather obvious: they were hated by all of Egypt.

Moreover they were Canaanites who adopted some Egyptian gods and practices: which ties into the prophecy to Abraham in Genesis 15, that the descendants of Abraham would return when the iniquity of the Amorites, (who are Canaanites), had come to the full. How much more full can that iniquity be than to enslave the Hebrews and begin to kill every newborn male child?


PS: the wiki article also mentions that Pi-Tem was an agricultural city/town that was growing barley and wheat, and that (grain) silos were found, and that makes it a "store city" as stated in Exodus 1:11, (no doubt for the Hyksos).
Tell the truth. You have multiple conflicting time-line graphs papering your walls, with notes and arrows or strings pointing to different events. Right? (Since my marriage, I'm no longer allowed to decorate the walls. ;) )

I am trying to do something similar in the virtual world. It is the only hope I have of keeping up. Thanks for sharing all of this. It really helps.
 
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Yes, and Avaris, (from where most of the Hyksos kings ruled), is right in the midst of the area known as Goshen in the scripture. However none of this was my point, as you may see, the map of Egypt which I posted is missing just about everything except for the Nile river and the dividing line between lower and upper Egypt. This again causes me to suspect that perhaps there may be somewhat of a language barrier here: for rather than suggest that my map was inferior perhaps it would have been better worded just to add your observation without suggesting the map I posted wasn't good enough for what you wished to interject into the discussion. Understand? My map wasn't just missing "yosef's canal" but rather almost everything, and that is because your observation has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Please further explain what you mean by "greco constellation" so I can be sure what you are speaking about. Are you suggesting that because Serpens Caput is a Greek constellation that it has no bearing on these things? Not all of the constellations are the same, this is true, but the most visibly recognizable were essentially the same even though they did not have the same names in different languages and cultures. Serpens Caput was a serpent or a dragon either way, no matter what the Hebrews called it, and they did indeed recognize this constellation, and they likely recognized it together with Corona Borealis, as the head of the dragon, (unlike the "greco constellation", or Greek constellation, if indeed that is what you mean).

There has already been some discussion here in another thread concerning Corona Borealis, and in very ancient times it formed one of the groups of stars which role over and never set, (as spoken of in Sefer Henok), and this is because that constellation was closer to the pole star in ancient times, close enough that the constellation didn't set but rather circled in the heavens around the pole star. And at one point Alpha Draconis, (Thuban, in the northern constellation of Draco), was itself the pole star: so there were multiple serpent symbols in the heavens that were close to the north pole recognizable by all the tribes of the earth in the northern hemisphere, regardless of the words they used for a serpent or a dragon in their own languages. Calling something Greek doesn't nullify the possibility that it may be spoken about in the scripture: if that is your argument, it is invalid, imo.
"Greco constellations" should be self evident/explanatory. They are the patterns put forth by Aristotle the greek philosopher and contemporaries at around 100ad.
 
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I was wondering if the 'Roman imperative' could be determined as far as Josephus was concerned, might that hint as to which of two conflicting accounts might be the more accurate? I also wonder if Josephus, being in the predicament that he was, would not have at least hoped that the native Judean understanding of these matters might have helped to protect his reputation among his countrymen? - Just a thought.
Aside from Rome, Josephus was a Pharisee; so it would stand to reason that his writings would stem from Pharisee perspective, biases, and pressures.
 
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I was wondering if the 'Roman imperative' could be determined as far as Josephus was concerned, might that hint as to which of two conflicting accounts might be the more accurate? I also wonder if Josephus, being in the predicament that he was, would not have at least hoped that the native Judean understanding of these matters might have helped to protect his reputation among his countrymen? - Just a thought.
That's with a presumption [motive] of course. Assuming that josephus and the publication around 1600 wasnt a fictional propaganda work of rome. During that time rome was heavily involved in Israel/Palestinian affairs. So it's safe to say that it was released to attempt a garner of peace by means of lies.
A proto typical method imo
 
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A pharisee?
Where did you hear that?
Multiple sources over many years. Here is one for you review:


If you want to go with Hasmonean; the same argument applies. However, considering that it was the Pharisees that made a deal with Rome; that would seem unlikely.
 
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Multiple sources over many years. Here is one for you review:


If you want to go with Hasmonean; the same argument applies. However, considering that it was the Pharisees that made a deal with Rome; that would seem unlikely.
Cited in brackets is from the link
[ "most likely shared ideology and sympathy with the party of the Pharisees."]
Yeah, that doesnt make him a pharisee. More so hes likened to the traitor judas iscariot.
An overall generalization of the term "pharisee " is counterintuitive and counterproductive.
Because its known that there were differing schools.
Hence the talmud!
A must read.
 
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Cited in brackets is from the link
[ "most likely shared ideology and sympathy with the party of the Pharisees."]
Yeah, that doesnt make him a pharisee. More so hes likened to the traitor judas iscariot.
An overall generalization of the term "pharisee " is counterproductive.
Because its known that there were differing schools.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Clearly he did not respect the authority of the Zadokites, or he would have been persecuted, with the rest of those who recognized our beloved Messiah.

Here's another one for you:

As Josephus was himself a Pharisee, his account might represent a historical creation meant to elevate the status of the Pharisees during the height of the Hasmonean Dynasty.[39]
 
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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Clearly he did not respect the authority of the Zadokites, or he would have been persecuted, with the rest of those who recognized our beloved Messiah.

Here's another one for you:

As Josephus was himself a Pharisee, his account might represent a historical creation meant to elevate the status of the Pharisees during the height of the Hasmonean Dynasty.[39]
Shabbat 31a is an example of differing schools. 2 out out of 10 ish.

Rome only persecuted those that denied their mark of citizenship. So to further their agenda rome invented jewish characters that accepted the mark.
Is that concise enough of an explanation?
 
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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Clearly he did not respect the authority of the Zadokites, or he would have been persecuted, with the rest of those who recognized our beloved Messiah.

Here's another one for you:

As Josephus was himself a Pharisee, his account might represent a historical creation meant to elevate the status of the Pharisees during the height of the Hasmonean Dynasty.[39]
Wiki ,ed contradicts itself again
 
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