The Strong's Deception

Yahudim

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Yeah, I can agree with that, but also, seeing your second to last statement, I cannot resist posting the following.

Genesis 40:9-11 KJV
9 And the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, In my dream, behold, a vine was before me;
10 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes:
11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed [H7818] them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.

How many times is this verb found? Uh, only once, and the above is it.

H7818 שָׂחַט śâchaṭ
BDB Definition:
1) (Qal) to squeeze, press out
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2248
Total KJV Occurrences: 1
pressed, 1
Gen 40:11

Bummer, if only it was the same as the following verb, then we would not only have the mere second occurrence in the above passage, but perhaps also a deeper understanding of the following word and perhaps a better reason for why the LXX keeps rendering a word that literally means "to rush" when it comes to sacrifices, (G2380 θύω, thuo).

H7819 שָׁחַט shâchaṭ
BDB Definition:
1) to kill, slaughter, beat (verb)
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to slaughter
1a1a) beast for food
1a1b) sacrifice
1a1c) person in human sacrifice
1a1d) beaten, hammered (of shekels)
1b) (Niphal) to be slaughtered, be slain (of food or sacrifice)
2) (BDB) slaughtering (noun feminine)
2a) word doubtful
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2362
Total KJV Occurrences: 81

But of course that isn't really Strong's fault: it's the single shin/sin point on the right or left top of the shin that changes the word. I guess the difference ultimately comes down to whether we are talking about the blood of the grape or the blood of an animal. :D
Hey daq,

I was on the phone with a friend, discussing this matter as an aside to the larger question - the concept of concordances, their initial purpose and how to hang doors and repair plumbing (yeah, I know). But a thought came into my head unbidden. So I wanted to share it with you and see if it might strike a chord.

This word (ואשחט) may be unique for an obvious reason. We see the Aleph-Shin-Hey (אשח) root word meaning, that which according to Chabad is, "I will". But try looking this root word up in scripture and tell me what you find, ok? I could not find it. Anyway, it is being modified in a unique fashion with the Waw prefix and the Tet suffix. This is a head scratcher for me. So back to my thought:

While reading this account in Genesis, I realized that the conversation was between native Egyptians and the Hebrew was either translated or transliterated from the Egyptian language. When I came to this realization, my sadly untrained mind brought forth a line from an '80s movie, 'Short Circuit', where a military organization called Nova creates five robots. One of the robots, Number Five, is hit by lightning and becomes "alive". Anyway, one of the scientists is from India and at the revelation that the robot had become sentient exclaimed, "I'm so excited, I'm standing beside myself!" See what I did there?

Language is often used within a idiomatic context. And within this time frame, both written languages being discussed were pictographic in nature. The interpretive concepts were probably similar but distinct, as were both customs and traditions. So your remark about the meaning of the word 'ואשחט' changing depending on what was being squeezed (animals or grapes) may be both closer to and further from the truth than we first supposed.

Just a thought, but I'm headed over to AHRC and Biblical Archeology to do some more digging (pun intended). :cool:

Edit: Spelling
 
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daq

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Hey daq,

I was on the phone with a friend, discussing this matter as an aside to the larger question - the concept of concordances, their initial purpose and how to hang doors and repair plumbing (yeah, I know). But a thought came into my head unbidden. So I wanted to share it with you and see if it might strike a chord.

This word (ואשחט) may be unique for an obvious reason. We see the Aleph-Shin-Hey (אשח) root word meaning, according to Chabad is, "I will". But try looking this word up in scripture and tell me what you find, ok? I could not find it. Anyway, it is being modified in a unique fashion with the Waw prefix and the Tet suffix. This is a head scratcher for me. So back to my thought:

The alef is the first person prefix, "I", (I will do this, I will do that, etc., etc.). That is also the way it is in the passage in question where the wine-steward is recounting what he did in the dream, ("I squeezed"...). However this word is listed as a primitive root, so if we cannot trust the lexicons in this case, (which it appears we cannot), how do we know whether it is indeed a primitive root or not? The ultimate reality is that we can really only depend on the scripture text and possibly some other ancient texts which will enlighten us even if we do not consider them "canon".

What I do find, concerning what you have said, is the following: and only this single word, to the best of my knowledge, and it is also listed as a primitive root but it is not the same as what we find in Gen 40:11, (שָׂחַט). I'll post the scripture references in the BDB also so that the forum software will give the scripture reference pop-ups.

שָׂחָה
śâchâh
BDB Definition:
1) to swim
1a) (Qal) swim (participle)
1b) (Hiphil) to make to swim
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2247

Total KJV Occurrences: 3
swim, 2
Psa 6:6, Isa 25:11
swimmeth, 1
Isa 25:11 (2)

While reading this account in Genesis, I realized that the conversation was between native Egyptians and the Hebrew was either translated of transliterated from the Egyptian language. When I came to this realization, my sadly untrained mind brought forth a line from an '80s movie, 'Short Circuit', where a military organization called Nova creates five robots. One of the robots, Number Five, is hit by lightning and becomes "alive". Anyway, one of the scientists is from India and at the revelation that the robot had become sentient exclaimed, "I'm so excited, I'm standing beside myself!" See what I did there?

Language is often used within a idiomatic context. And within this time frame, both written languages being discussed were pictographic in nature. The interpretive concepts were probably similar but distinct, as were both customs and traditions. So your remark about the meaning of the word 'ואשחט' changing depending on what was being squeezed (animals or grapes) may be both closer to and further from the truth than we first supposed.

Just a thought, but I'm headed over to AHRC and Biblical Archeology to do some more digging (pun intended). :cool:

Well, just so you and @HARK! know, I was being sarcastic in my comments which began with "Bummer" in that post, for I do indeed believe that both words in that post are the very same word, despite the single change in pointing on the letter shin to make it the sin or samek sound, (which is one of the ways we can see that the pointing is actually a whole commentary embedded into the Masoretic text: it isn't just for pronunciation and cantillation, it is also interpretive).

What is the most common or typical thing that needs to be rushed in the Biblical sense? The answer is easy: unleavened bread, because of the natural yeast in the air. However the same is true for the blood of Elem/Elim, (אילם), for once the neck of the date palm is slit, and the nectar which flows forth is exposed to the air, (and the natural yeast in the air), the nectar undergoes fermentation very quickly and becomes date palm wine, and even has an alcohol content of somewhere around four percent after just a couple of hours.

There are many questions for which it appears to me that mainline scholarship does not even know that the questions exist or need to be asked, (investigated). That's not meant as denigration but rather goes toward the way that we should read modern translations of the scripture into English, which is, as though they are simply presenting the scripture in a broad manner, and somewhat watered down, so that as many people as possible can understand their translations. It isn't possible for translators to go into all the things that we ourselves actually need to study so as to come to a more complete understanding in our walk with the Creator, (being taught ultimately by Him in His Word).
 
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Yahudim

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The alef is the first person prefix, "I", (I will do this, I will do that, etc., etc.). That is also the way it is in the passage in question where the wine-steward is recounting what he did in the dream, ("I squeezed"...). However this word is listed as a primitive root, so if we cannot trust the lexicons in this case, (which it appears we cannot), how do we know whether it is indeed a primitive root or not? The ultimate reality is that we can really only depend on the scripture text and possibly some other ancient texts which will enlighten us even if we do not consider them "canon".

What I do find, concerning what you have said, is the following: and only this single word, to the best of my knowledge, and it is also listed as a primitive root but it is not the same as what we find in Gen 40:11, (שָׂחַט). I'll post the scripture references in the BDB also so that the forum software will give the scripture reference pop-ups.

שָׂחָה
śâchâh
BDB Definition:
1) to swim
1a) (Qal) swim (participle)
1b) (Hiphil) to make to swim
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2247

Total KJV Occurrences: 3
swim, 2
Psa 6:6, Isa 25:11
swimmeth, 1
Isa 25:11 (2)



Well, just so you and @HARK! know, I was being sarcastic in my the comments which began with "Bummer" in that post, for I do indeed believe that both words in that post are the very same word, despite the single change in pointing on the letter shin to make it the sin or samek sound, (which is one of the ways we can see that the pointing is actually a whole commentary embedded into the Masoretic text: it isn't just for pronunciation and cantillation, it is also interpretive).

What is the most common or typical thing that needs to be rushed in the Biblical sense? The answer is easy: unleavened bread, because of the natural yeast in the air. However the same is true for the blood of Elem/Elim, (אילם), for once the neck of the date palm is slit, and the nectar which flows forth is exposed to the air, (and the natural yeast in the air), the nectar undergoes fermentation very quickly and becomes date palm wine, and even has an alcohol content of somewhere around four percent after just a couple of hours.

There are many questions for which it appears to me that mainline scholarship does not even know that the questions exist or need to be asked, (investigated). That's not meant as denigration but rather goes toward the way that we should read modern translations of the scripture into English, which is, as though they are simply presenting the scripture in a broad manner, and somewhat watered down, so that as many people as possible can understand their translations. It isn't possible for translators to go into all the things that we ourselves actually need to study so as to come to a more complete understanding in our walk with the Creator, (being taught ultimately by Him in His Word).
You? No! Say it isn't so, daq! Next thing you know, we'll all be cracking wise. Well, maybe not @HARK! ;)
 
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JohnD70X7

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Does not all of this betray the imperfection of human communication / transmission of ideals?

When you endeavor to pin down every detail and nuance you end up with ambiguity (depending on what the definition of is... is).

"Ah feel your pain..."
 
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JohnD70X7

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One more.

This is why 2 Peter 1:20-21 is so crucial (to the point of HaShem placing it to the head of scriptures):

Know this first!

No prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation nor of the will of man...
But holy men of God were lead by the Holy Spirit.

All scripture came in this manner. Therefore all scripture is prophetic and this applies to all scripture.

We are therefore to test the spirits to insure the interpretation is from the Holy Spirit (1 John 4:1)
which we accomplish by the scriptures themselves (Acts 17:11).

G-d wants to tell his own story (Isaiah 28:9-13 / Deuteronomy 29:29 / Proverbs 25:2).

When we over emphasize the medium of the divine communication we risk missing the very points he is making.
The Holy Spirit interpreted scriptures are more than sufficient.

Akin to the difference between knowing what the scriptures say versus learning what the scriptures mean.
 
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HARK!

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ארוד

H719, H720

ארודי

H721, H722

ארזי

H729, H730

ארח

H732, H733. H734. H735

ארחה

H736, H737

This isn't the first time I've seen this during this study; but different sources will render different spellings for the same Strong's number.

This creates even more confusion, if we are to study Yah's word by the otiot, as written in scripture.
 
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HARK!

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אראל

H739, H740

אריה

H744, H745

ארך

H748, H749 H750, H751, H752, H753

For H749, some sources render it as ארך, and others render it as אריך.
For H752, some sources render it as ארך, and others render it as ארכה (H754).
 
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ארם

H760, H763

Why does ארם H764 come after ארמי H761?

ארמי

H761, H762

Variant spellings for this word: ארמי (Gesenius) ארמית (Strongs)


This problem with variant spellings of words assigned to specific Strong's numbers is more widespread than I had first realized. I will need to go back and update my work; but for now I will continue to move forward.

All of this chaos can be exhausting.

Is that why it's called Strong's Exhaustive Concordance?
 
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daq

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All of this chaos can be exhausting.

Is that why it's called Strong's Exhaustive Concordance?

Perhaps if you start to feel like you are loosing badly at a game of whack-a-mole you might want to take a little break so that you do not end up with Strong's disease. :D
 
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@HARK!, all kidding aside, I wasn't suggesting you should actually take a break or stop, (just a joke).
I got the joke.

I've been working since before you made this post. It's been going slowly; as I've needed to repeatedly stoke my fire with kindling. I have a IR thermometer. On the ceiling, near my wood stove, it's ~80 degrees; but in the far rooms of my house, the floor is ~40 degrees.

I'm having difficulty burning wood fast enough to keep the house warm. I'm slowly losing ground; and tomorrow is another unusually cold day.

The irony of responding to this message is found at where I have advanced in my work until now.


אשה

H800, H801, H802
 
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