Handwritten Dogmas and the Letter which Kills

[daq]

The following translator understands the following passage quite well, even to the point that it is the Body of Meshiah which is to judge regarding what is mentioned in the text, meaning that the word order, (which is not all that important in Greek, but more critical in English translations), is not properly rendered in most if not all English translations. The phrase, "the Body of Meshiah" is more properly placed at the beginning of verse sixteen. This is why so many translators find the need to either add to this statement or change the meaning of soma from body to substance: for it does not read properly in English without adding to it or redefining words so as to make sense of it, and the reason why is because it does not belong where it is generally placed in English translations, (the end of verse seventeen).

Colossians 2:13-22 TS2009 W/Footnotes
13 And you, being dead in your trespassesc and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, Footnote: cEph 2:1.
14 having blotted out that which was written by hand against us – by the dogmasd – which stood against us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the stake. Footnote: dDogmas - also see Col 2:20 and Eph 2:15.
15 Having stripped the principalities and the authorities, He made a public display of them, having prevailed over them in it.
16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.e Footnote: eThe Body of Messiah is to give ruling on all matters, not the outsiders! See also Mat 18:15-20.
18 Let no one deprive you of the prize, one who takes delight in false humility and worship of messengers, taking his stand on what he has not seen, puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the Body – nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments – grows with the growth of Elohim.
20 If, then, you died with Messiah from the elementary mattersf of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas:d Footnotes: dDogmas - also see Col 2:14 and Eph 2:15. fSee Col 2:8 and Gal 4:3 and Gal 4:9.
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle” –
22 which are all to perish with use – according to the commands and teachings of men?g Isa 29:13. Footnote: gSee also Mat 15:8-9, Mar 7:6-7.

The translator footnote for verse seventeen rightly says that it is the Body of Meshiah that is to rule on all matters, not outsiders: but it appears that the translator misses one thing, that is, the meaning of "the Body of Meshiah" in this context, and almost no doubt the Body of Meshiah in this context concerns the Tanak Body of the Meshiah because he is the Word. The Tanak Body of Meshiah was raised up in Matthew 27:51-53, and entered into the holy city, which means Yerushalem of above, not Yerushalem of below, (see Hebrews 12:22-24).

Thus it is the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the Tanak Body of Meshiah, which is to be our judge in the matters mentioned in that portion of the text above where this is mentioned. If therefore we correct the word order, as it appears to be meant in the Greek text, it should read and be rendered in the following manner.

Colossians 2:13-22
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 having blotted out the handwriting in dogmas that were against us, which were contrary to us: and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the stake:
15 having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no one but the body of Meshiah therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new month or the Shabbat:
17 which are a shadow of the things to come.
18 Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshiping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increases with the increase of Elohim.
20 If you died with Meshiah from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas,
21 Handle not, Taste not, Touch not,
22 (all of which things are to perish with the using), after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Nowhere in the scripture is the Torah ever called dogmas, and Paul explains at the end of the portion above that he speaks of the commandments and teachings or doctrines of men: that is surely not speaking of the Torah. However dogma does appear in the Septuagint, and is always used for edicts, decrees, dogmas, and proclamations from kings and rulers. In the sense of the Colossians passage herein above it is no doubt the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, and their handwritten dogmas and decrees which were against the people, and contrary to us all: for their interpretations of the Torah were based on a natural minded, outward, and physical understanding of the Torah, which we know from Romans 7:14 is spiritual, just as Elohim Himself is Spirit, (John 4:24), so His Word is Spirit, and likewise the Testimony of the Meshiah is Spirit, (John 6:63).

The handwritten dogmas and decrees of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were binding upon the whole nation, and which were contrary and against the people, are the same "letter" which Paul says kills.

The letter which kills is not the Torah. The letter which kills concerns the handwritten dogmas of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which Paul speaks about in Colossians 2:14. Meshiah indeed triumphed over them and their carnal minded rulings, dogmas, and decrees, all over the place in the Gospel accounts for all to see: making a show of them and their hypocrisy openly before all the people, which is one of the main reasons why the rulers of the people had him killed.

 

[HARK!]

Hi Daq, this was a very insightful analysis.

My understanding of scripture has grown since I wrote this; but you might still find some valuable related insights here: Colossians 2:16

 

[daq]

Letters:

John 7:14-18 KJV
14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, [G1121 γραμμα (γραμματα)] having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

The Meshiah knows letters and yet the letter kills?

Acts 28:17-21 KJV
17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters [G1121 γραμμα (γραμματα)] out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.

From whom might the "chief (foremost) of the Jews" in Rome possibly receive "letters"? especially concerning harm or evil concerning Paul? That really can only mean certain dogmas, decrees, or injunctions concerning Paul, and coming from the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes at Yerushalem.

Pay extra close attention to this next passage: for Paul actually says that by the letter and circumcision they were transgressing the Torah. How can this be? It is by way of their incorrect interpretation of the Torah concerning circumcision, which was the natural minded, outward, physical interpretation of circumcision, and which by their own handwritten dogmas and decrees was forced upon the people, binding upon the whole nation, and yet it was the wrong interpretation: thus they were forcing the people to observe their own misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Torah which is spiritual, (Rom 7:14). After that statement Paul gives us the true meaning of circumcision, which is of the heart, and which is also taught in the Torah: and thus we have a choice to either choose life or death in our understanding of what we hear, (understand), and see, (perceive), in our reading of the Torah, (Deut 10:16, Deut 30:6, Deut 30:11-20, Rom 10:6-8). Moreover what Paul states in Rom 2:28-29 is not a set of multiple choice options: the things stated therein are emphatically stated to be the case, and one either blieves what he says or does not.

Romans 2:27-29 KJV
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter [G1121 γραμμα (γραμματος)] and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; [G1121 γραμμα (γραμματι)] whose praise is not of men, but of God.

If the letter is the Torah then how can it be that the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes might transgress the Torah "by the letter"? The letter in this case therefore cannot be the Torah: it concerns the handwritten dogmas, decrees, injunctions, and ordinances of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were binding on the whole nation, and which were against us because they were natural minded, outward, physical interpretations of the Torah which were incorrect interpretations of the spiritual and supernal Word of the Father who is Spirit.

Moreover gramma is also used for writings and-or scripture:

2 Timothy 3:15 KJV
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, [G1121 γραμμα (γραμματα)] which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:15 ASV
15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings [G1121 γραμμα (γραμματα)] which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Is the Torah not scripture?

Rightly divide: the letter which kills is not the scripture, and certainly not the Torah, rather, the letter which kills concerns the handwritten dogmas, decrees, injunctions, and ordinances of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were binding upon the whole nation, and which were against us because they were natural minded, outward, physical interpretations of the Torah which were incorrect interpretations of the spiritual and supernal Torah-Word of the Father who is Spirit.

The Torah is spiritual, Romans 7:14.

 

[daq]

Hi Daq, this was a very insightful analysis.

My understanding of scripture has grown since I wrote this; but you might still find some valuable related insights here: Colossians 2:16

Thanks for that link: I like some of the readings there from the CLV, and will look into them.

 

[daq]

Dogma - New-Renewed Covenant Writings

Luke 3:1 KJV
1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree [G1378 δογμα] from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Acts 16:4 KJV
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees [G1378 δογμα] for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Acts 17:7 KJV
7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees [G1378 δογμα] of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.

Apart from Eph 2:15, Col 2:14, and Col 2:20, (G1379 δογματιζω), that's it for dogma in the R/C.
Strange how the translators forget the meaning when it comes to Eph 2:15, Col 2:14, and Col 2:20, huh?

Dogma - Greek Septuagint Tanakh

Esther 3:9 Brenton Septuagint
9 If it seem good to the king, let him make a decree [G1379 δογματιζω] to destroy them: and I will remit into the king's treasury ten thousand talents of silver.

Daniel 2:13 Brenton Septuagint
13 So the decree [G1378 δογμα] went forth, and they began to slay the wise men; and they sought Daniel and his fellows to slay them.

Daniel 3:10-12 Brenton septuagint
10 Thou, O king, has made a decree [G1378 δογμα] that every man who shall hear the sound of the trumpet, and pipe, and harp, sackbut, and psaltery, and all kinds of music,
11 and shall not fall down and worship the golden image, shall be cast into the burning fiery furnace.
12 There are certain Jews whom thou has appointed over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Sedrach, Misach, and Abdenago, who have not obeyed thy decree, [G1378 δογμα] O king: they serve not thy gods, and worship not the golden image which thou hast set up.

Daniel 3:29 - G1378 δογμα - rendered as the king's decree
Daniel 4:6 - G1378 δογμα - rendered as the king's decree
Daniel 6:8-26 - G1378 δογμα (5 times) - rendered as the king's decree

G1378 δογμα (with G1379 δογματιζω) is found seventeen times in the Septuagint and New-Renewed Covenant writings combined: fourteen times it is rendered "decree(s)" and the other three times it is rendered "ordinances", (at least in the KJV and ASV which I checked), and those three times, which are the final occurrences in the Renewed Covenant writings, are of course Eph 2:15, Col 2:14, and Col 2:20, (the one occurrence of δογματιζω in the R/C).

Understand, friends: the fix is in, (literally, in the translations of men).

 

[daq]

The Greek text for Col 2:14 is the same in the T/R as with all the majority morph texts:

Colossians 2:14 T/R, BYZ, N/A, W/H
14 εξαλειψας το καθ ημων χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν ο ην υπεναντιον ημιν και αυτο ηρκεν εκ του μεσου προσηλωσας αυτο τω σταυρω

The ASV is probably correct to render χειρογραφον as a bond in this case because it speaks of a handwritten legal document or handwritten legal bond, and therefore, of course, binding upon all the people because in this context it concerns the rulings of the Sanhedrin handwritten by their Scribes. Moreover, generally speaking, the most important rulings were typically posted in public places for all to see, especially the Temple.

Colossians 2:14 ASV
14 having blotted out the bond written [χειρογραφον] in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

Thus we have:

Colossians 2:14
14 having blotted out the handwritten-bond of the decrees against us, which was adversarial to us: and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the stake,

The Meshiah did not "blot out the Torah" or nail it to the stake so as to be figuratively destroyed with the flesh. It should clearly be understood as the handwritten-bonds and decrees of the natural minded, outward, and physical interpretations of the Torah according to the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, whose natural minded outward interpretations of the Torah were binding upon the whole nation, and yet adversarial to the people, as openly shown in many passages in the Gospel accounts where the Meshiah engages vehement disputes with them over some of their erroneous dogmas and decrees.

 

[HARK!]

Colossians 2:14 (CLV)

erasing the handwriting of the decrees against us, which was hostile to us, and has taken it away out of the midst, nailing it to the cross,


Lexicon :: Strong's G1378 - dogma

δόγμα
Transliteration
dogma
Pronunciation
do'g-mä (Key)

Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From the base of δοκέω (G1380)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 2:230,178

KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G1378 in the following manner: decree (3x), ordinance (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. doctrine, decree, ordinance
   1. of public decrees
      
      
   2. of the Roman Senate
      
      
   3. of rulers
2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
   
   
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
δόγμα dógma, dog'-mah; from the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):—decree, ordinance.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 1378: δόγμα
δόγμα, δογματος, τό (from δοκέω, and equivalent to τό δεδογμενον), an opinion, a judgment (Plato, others), doctrine, decree, ordinance;
1. of public decrees (as τῆς πόλεως, Plato, legg. 1, p. 644 d.; of the Roman Senate (Polybius 6, 13, 2); Herodian, 7, 10, 8 (5, Bekker edition)): of rulers, Luke 2:1; Acts 17:7; Hebrews 11:23 Lachmann (Theod. in Daniel 2:13; Daniel 3:10; Daniel 4:3; Daniel 6:13, etc. — where the Sept. uses other words).
2. of the rules and requirements of the law of Moses, 3Macc. 1:3; διατήρησις τῶν ἁγίων δογμάτων, Philo, alleg. legg. i., § 16; carrying a suggestion of severity, and of threatened punishment, τόν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δογμασι, the law containing precepts in the form of decrees (A. V. the law of commandments contained in ordinances), Ephesians 2:15; τό καθ' ἡμῶν χειρόγραφον τοῖς δογμασι equivalent to τό τοῖς δογμασι (dative of instrument) by ὄν καθ' ἡμῶν, the bond against us by its decrees, Colossians 2:14; cf. Winers Grammar, § 31, 10 Note 1 (Buttmann, 92 (80); on both passages see Lightfoot on Colossians, the passage cited).
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living: Acts 16:4. (Of all the precepts of the Christian religion: βεβαιωθῆναι ἐν τοῖς δόγμασιν τοῦ κυρίου καί τῶν ἀποστόλων, Ignatius ad Magnes. 13, 1 [ET]; of the precepts (`sentences' or tenets) of philosophers, in the later secular writings: Cicero, acad. 2, 9, 27de suis decretis, quae philosophi vocant dogmata.) (On the use of the word in general, see Lightfoot as above; (cf. 'Teaching' etc. 11, 3 [ET]).)


Source: G1378 - dogma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

 

[HARK!]

δόγμα
Transliteration
dogma

The fact that δόγμα is transliterated as "dogma," probably means that it means dogma.

Just a hunch.

 

[daq]

Colossians 2:14 (CLV)

erasing the handwriting of the decrees against us, which was hostile to us, and has taken it away out of the midst, nailing it to the cross,


Lexicon :: Strong's G1378 - dogma

δόγμα
Transliteration
dogma
Pronunciation
do'g-mä (Key)

Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From the base of δοκέω (G1380)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 2:230,178

KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G1378 in the following manner: decree (3x), ordinance (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. doctrine, decree, ordinance
   1. of public decrees
      
      
   2. of the Roman Senate
      
      
   3. of rulers
2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
   
   
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
δόγμα dógma, dog'-mah; from the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):—decree, ordinance.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 1378: δόγμα
δόγμα, δογματος, τό (from δοκέω, and equivalent to τό δεδογμενον), an opinion, a judgment (Plato, others), doctrine, decree, ordinance;
1. of public decrees (as τῆς πόλεως, Plato, legg. 1, p. 644 d.; of the Roman Senate (Polybius 6, 13, 2); Herodian, 7, 10, 8 (5, Bekker edition)): of rulers, Luke 2:1; Acts 17:7; Hebrews 11:23 Lachmann (Theod. in Daniel 2:13; Daniel 3:10; Daniel 4:3; Daniel 6:13, etc. — where the Sept. uses other words).
2. of the rules and requirements of the law of Moses, 3Macc. 1:3; διατήρησις τῶν ἁγίων δογμάτων, Philo, alleg. legg. i., § 16; carrying a suggestion of severity, and of threatened punishment, τόν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δογμασι, the law containing precepts in the form of decrees (A. V. the law of commandments contained in ordinances), Ephesians 2:15; τό καθ' ἡμῶν χειρόγραφον τοῖς δογμασι equivalent to τό τοῖς δογμασι (dative of instrument) by ὄν καθ' ἡμῶν, the bond against us by its decrees, Colossians 2:14; cf. Winers Grammar, § 31, 10 Note 1 (Buttmann, 92 (80); on both passages see Lightfoot on Colossians, the passage cited).
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living: Acts 16:4. (Of all the precepts of the Christian religion: βεβαιωθῆναι ἐν τοῖς δόγμασιν τοῦ κυρίου καί τῶν ἀποστόλων, Ignatius ad Magnes. 13, 1 [ET]; of the precepts (`sentences' or tenets) of philosophers, in the later secular writings: Cicero, acad. 2, 9, 27de suis decretis, quae philosophi vocant dogmata.) (On the use of the word in general, see Lightfoot as above; (cf. 'Teaching' etc. 11, 3 [ET]).)


Source: G1378 - dogma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

Nice, I really need to look more into the CLV translation.

 

[daq]

δόγμα
Transliteration
dogma

The fact that δόγμα is transliterated as "dogma," probably means that it means dogma.

Just a hunch.

Lol, yeah, it doesn't get any closer in direct transliteration (and meaning) than that.

 

[daq]

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember that you, once nations [or gentiles] in the flesh, being reckoned Uncircumcision by the Circumcision in the flesh reckoned made by hands,
12 that you were in that time without Meshiah, alienated from the citizenship-commonwealth of Yisrael, and foreigners from the covenants of solemn promise, having no hope, and without Elohim in the world.
13 But now, in Meshiah Ι̅Η, you who were once far off have been brought near by the blood of Meshiah:
14 for he is our peace, having made both one, and having broken down the middle partition-wall of the enclosure,
15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the law of the injunctions in decrees, [dogmas] that he might create in himself one renewed man, making peace,
16 and that he might fully restore them both in one body unto Elohim by the stake, having slain the enmity therein [or thereby].
17 And having come, he announced good news, peace to you that were afar off, and to those near:
18 for by him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 Wherefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the holy [set-apart] ones and members of the household of Elohim,
20 built upon the foundation of the apostles [sent ones] and of the prophets, the chief cornerstone thereof being Meshiah Ι̅Η,
21 in whom all the building fitted together increases into a holy temple in YHWH:
22 in whom also you are builded together for a habitation-dwelling of Elohim in the Spirit.

Surely Paul mentions and goes into the teaching on the temple at the end of the above passage because it has to do with what he speaks of just before that in what we read in the passage. The middle partition wall is being used in this analogy because anyone who had been to the temple would have immediately known what he was talking about, even if a person only came at the feasts from far away, like those we read of from all over the known world in Acts 2, at Pentecost.

The partition wall which is mentioned here by Paul would have been the barrier that separated the Court of the Nations or Gentiles, and stone markers were placed at intervals all along this dividing wall to warn Gentiles not to go beyond that point: the penalty for which trespass was death. Several of these stone markers with their handwritten engraved warnings have been discovered with the texts still intact and legible. Paul's discourse here surely reveals that his usage of this analogy speaks of the doing away with the handwritten dogmas and decrees of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were based in natural minded, physical, outward interpretations of the Torah.

Istanbul Archaeology Museum:

Herodian Temple Inscription

"NO FOREIGNER IS TO ENTER WITHIN THE BALUSTRADE AND EMBANKMENT AROUND THE SANCTUARY: WHOEVER IS CAUGHT WILL HAVE HIMSELF TO BLAME FOR HIS DEATH WHICH WILL FOLLOW."

This is one of the warning signs carved in stone that were placed at regular intervals in the partition wall of separation around the temple court which separated the Court of the Gentiles and kept them from going beyond their court any closer to the temple. The penalty was physical death for any Gentile going beyond the partition wall, and this was the law, though you will not find it in the Torah. This is exactly what Paul is speaking about in the Ephesians 2 passage.

Israel Museum:

Temple Inscription Fragment

"NO FOREIGNER IS TO GO BEYOND THE BALUSTRADE AND THE PLAZA OF THE TEMPLE ZONE. WHOEVER IS CAUGHT DOING SO WILL HAVE HIMSELF TO BLAME FOR HIS DEATH WHICH WILL FOLLOW."

None of this concerns the Torah being abolished, abrogated, or set aside.

 

[HARK!]

11 Wherefore remember that you, once nations [or gentiles] in the flesh, being reckoned Uncircumcision by the Circumcision in the flesh reckoned made by hands,

Not anymore!

12 that you were in that time without Meshiah, alienated from the citizenship-commonwealth of Yisrael, and foreigners from the covenants of solemn promise, having no hope, and without Elohim in the world.

Not anymore!

19 Wherefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners,

Not anymore.

but fellow citizens

Citizens of Israel.


(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws (Torah) to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.



(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, (Church) here shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (this means forever) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

(CLV) Num 15:16
One law and one custom, it shall come to be for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you.



(CLV) Ex 12:49
One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.


(CLV) Lv 24:22
The same judgment shall you come to have; for the sojourner as well as the native shall it be: for I, Yahweh, am your Elohim.

(CLV) Num 15:29
For the native among the sons of Israel and for the sojourner sojourning in their midst, one law shall apply for you, to anyone doing it through inadvertence.

(CLV) Lv 19:34
As a native among you shall the sojourner sojourning with you come to be to you, and you will love him as yourself, for sojourners were you in the land of Egypt: I, Yahweh, am your Elohim.

Some say that the Torah is only for the Jews (Judeans? Only those of the tribe of Judah? What do they mean?).

No matter, YHWH says differently. I'll take his word for it.

 

[daq]

(CLV) Num 15:16
One law and one custom, it shall come to be for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you.

(CLV) Ex 12:49
One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

Another thing about both of these passages is that they actually use the word Torah.

Exodus 12:49 TS2009
49 “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

Exodus 12:49 can be taken to mean that it only refers to the Pesakh but not Numbers 15:16. The point I am getting at is that there is one Torah also in the sense that it cannot be divided up into sections, such as "moral law" and "ceremonial law", as some do. It is all one Torah, a slightly different secondary meaning, in addition to the fact that it is one Torah for both the native-born and the stranger.

 

[HARK!]

The point I am getting at is that there is one Torah also in the sense that it cannot be divided up into sections, such as "moral law" and "ceremonial law", as some do. It is all one Torah

Yes, our Father made no such distinction. His directions are his directions. A green light to ignore his directions comes from the doctrines of men.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, our Father made no such distinction. His directions are his directions. A green light to ignore his directions comes from the doctrines of men.

So where do you offer sacrifices? You see no difference between the 10 commandments written on stone symbolizing their eternal existence and what Moses wrote on animal skins or something similar?

 

[HARK!]

So where do you offer sacrifices?

I usually offer my Passover sacrifice in my own back yard. How about you?

You see no difference between the 10 commandments written on stone symbolizing their eternal existence and what Moses wrote on animal skins or something similar?

Exodus 34
King James Version

34 And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the Lord: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

Where do you make your sacrifice to keep the 3rd commandment, that was written in stone?


PASSOVER

“And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD {Yahweh} throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance FOREVER.” (Exodus 12:14)

UNLEAVENED BREAD

“And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance FOREVER.” (Exodus 12:17)

 

[Gary K]

I usually offer my Passover sacrifice in my own back yard. How about you?

Exodus 34
King James Version

34 And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the Lord: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

Where do you make your sacrifice to keep the 3rd commandment, that was written in stone?


PASSOVER

“And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD {Yahweh} throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance FOREVER.” (Exodus 12:14)

UNLEAVENED BREAD

“And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance FOREVER.” (Exodus 12:17)

I don't offer sacrifices for anything. Sacrifices for sin came to an end when Jesus died as His death was the ultimate sacrifice for sin. To offer a sacrifice for sin is to slap Jesus in the face as it shows we don't think His sacrifice was sufficient.

The feasts were all symbols pointing to Jesus so, again, why would I offer such an insult to Jesus?

 

[Yahudim]

@daq - @HARK! This is a masterwork on the subject of translational bias! Great work!

 

[HARK!]

I don't offer sacrifices for anything. Sacrifices for sin came to an end when Jesus died as His death was the ultimate sacrifice for sin. To offer a sacrifice for sin is to slap Jesus in the face as it shows we don't think His sacrifice was sufficient.

The Passover sacrifice is not a sin sacrifice. It is the sacrifice for a threshold covenant.

You can learn more about that here.

On that note YHWH doesn't want a sin sacrifice. He wants repentance. That was the message all along, through the Torah, through the prophets, through John the Baptist, through Yahshua, the message has been the same.

Yahshua came to take away our transgressions of the YHWH's Torah. That means to take them out of the house, not to sweep them under the carpet.

Many misunderstand the purpose of a sin sacrifice. For starters the sin sacrifices were for involuntary sin; but first the one who sinned was to come to repentance to YHWH;s Torah. If one did not repent first; the YHWH would not accept the sacrifice.

This is still true today.

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

(CLV) Hb 10:27
but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile.

(CLV) Hb 10:28
Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

(CLV) Hb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?

The sin sacrifice served to reinforce what had already taken place. One was to identify with the animal, and say to himself with that animal's death, so died his sin.

How much more so with the sacrifice of Yahshua?

We learn in 2Ch that out side of the land, and in absence of the temple, that sacrifice for sin is not a requirement for forgiveness.

(CLV) 2Ch 6:37
yet they turn back (repent) their heart in the land where they are captives, so that they return (repent) to You and supplicate in the land of their captivity, saying, We have sinned, we are depraved, and we are wicked,

(CLV) 2Ch 6:38
and they return to You with all their heart and with all their soul, in the land of their captors who had captured them, and they pray in the direction of their land wthat You gave to their fathers and toward the city wthat You have chosen and toward the house wthat I have built for Your Name,

(CLV) 2Ch 6:39
then You will hearken from the heavens, from the site of Your dwelling, to their prayer and their supplications, and You will execute right judgment for them, and You will pardon Your people who have sinned against You.

Repentance to obedience to YHWH's word is what YHWH desires.

Yahshua would not slap his father in the face by speaking against his father's word.

The feasts were all symbols pointing to Jesus so, again, why would I offer such an insult to Jesus?

Were? Past tense? Can you explain how Yahshua fulfilled the Fall Moedim?:

Yom Teruah: The last trump/ The coronation of the King.

Sukkot: The King and the bride under the chuppah/ The King pitching his tent with his people.

When did all of this happen?

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.



FEAST OF TABERNACLES (Booths / Sukkot)

And ye shall keep it a feast unto YHWH seven days in the year. It shall be a statute FOREVER in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.(Leviticus 23:41)

What does forever mean?

​

 

[Yahudim]

All of the Renewed Covenant writers quoted and expounded on what they called 'Scripture'; quoting from Hebrew writings that included not just the Torah, The Prophets and the Writings, but a whole host of sources that were not deemed 'canon' by those in power during the second century and beyond. Even Messiah drew from those sources when contending with the lawyers of the Edomite King, Herod and his successors, the Hasmonean pretenders to the High Priesthood called the Sadducees and the ruling theocratic party of His day, the Pharisees.

I wonder how much of this confusion is caused by what we now know about the evolution of the Hebrew scriptures? The 'Textus Receptus' is based on the Masoretic text; a version of TaNaK that was conceived and written about a 1000 years after Messiah Yeshua (Jesus the Christ) partially to hinder Christian apologetics and proselytising of the Jewish people.

The 'Textus Receptus' does not match the original Hebrew texts mentioned above and it has been proven to have omissions and additions. Further, the Masorets added vowel points. This is an important matter, in that pronunciation in Hebrew is rightly based on the context in which a word is found. By predetermining the pronunciation, the Masorets determine the meaning of the words, rather than letting the context provided by the author determine its meaning. This of course is a critical issue for believers in Messiah because it also leads to errant translations into other languages - such as English.

The oldest surviving text that most closely matches the original Hebrew is the Septuagint; a translation of the Hebrew TaNaK into the Greek. It predates the time of the Messiah by nearly 300 years and is considered very reliable by many textual critics, with certain exceptions noted therein. The discoveries of the DSS seems to support that view. You may find an article on the subject here -> Biblical Archaeology

Here is an excerpt:

The Origins of the Septuagint

The very first translation of the Hebrew Bible was made into Greek, probably as early as the third century BC. This, the so-called Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, is traditionally dated to the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus of Egypt (285-246 BC).

It is commonly called the 'Septuagint' version (from the Latin for 'seventy') because according to the traditional account of its origin, preserved in the so-called Letter of Aristeas, it had seventy-two translators. This letter tells how King Ptolemy II commissioned the royal librarian, Demetrius of Phaleron, to collect by purchase or by copying all the books in the world. He wrote a letter to Eleazar, the high priest at Jerusalem, requesting six elders of each tribe, in total seventy-two men, of exemplary life and learned in the Torah, to translate it into Greek.

I hope this helps...