Do all Fundamentalist believe in a Pre Trib Rapture
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I would agree with that! I don't see any 'secret' rapture scripture. I see several non-secret resurrections and raptures... From Genesis to Revelation. Enoch, Elijah, those saints that were resurrected at the time of Yeshua's death who were taken by Yeshua as the First fruits of the Harvest (Lev 23) to the Father, the Two Witness of Revelation, they will all be more than happy to explain it to anyone in the future. And you can share yours as well with them! Ought to be plenty to talk about and a lot of joy!
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Actually that's simply not true.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23
- afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
The Church will be gathered together to Him in clouds, the resurrection and rapture, at His Coming.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
There are 3 scriptural facts that concern the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which once these 3 things are known, there is no more confusion about this subject.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.
- And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16
- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17
- Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
The 3 major things that occur at His coming:
- The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
- The Rapture.
- The destruction of the antichrist.
Once each person comes to understand these three major truths that occur at His coming, there will be no more confusion about this doctrine.
JLB
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No, not true about multiple resurrections for the righteous? Multiple, grammatically, means more than one.
Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Only righteous are considered saints. Right?
So does this mean, as you contend that there are no multiple resurrections, this is the only one and there will be no future resurrections? I guess there is no hope, so why is anyone even discussing this. I guess we can say... case closed. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.
These resurrected saints did not die again. They were taken with Yeshua when he ascended to the father (remember that Yeshua told Mary not to handle Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father). He was resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits, per the Torah. He ascended to the Father with those saints that were resurrected at that time, to present them as the First Fruits of the harvest, per the requirements of the Torah.
Again, Yeshua used the example of the harvest many times in His ministry to us. And the details of how the harvest is to be done is in Leviticus.
Some just don't see Messiah in the Torah. Even though Yeshua said the volume of the book was written of Him. Another example where this is true is the law regarding unintentional killing. What of one who is guilty of what we would call "manslaughter", but not guilty of murder? Numbers 35 covers this.
If one is guilty of manslaughter, they are to flee to a city of refuge and remain there until the death of the High Priest and then they are free to leave. The avenger of blood (a family member) of the deceased is not allowed to touch the one guilty.
We all are guilty of the death of Messiah, Yeshua. But He said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" Luke 23. So Yeshua declared from the cross, that we are guilty of manslaughter, not murder.
Therefore, to be protected from the avenger of blood (the wrath of the Father), we are to flee to the city of refuge, which is the risen Messiah. And we are to remain there until the death of the High Priest. Messiah is our High Priest who will never die again. Thus we will live, though we are guilty.
All thru the Torah, every aspect of everything that will occur future is laid out. The Feasts of Leviticus 23 for example. And the resurrection is also outlined in the harvest rules that Yeshua pointed us to. And there are three parts to the harvest. 1) The gathering of the First Fruits (those resurrected at the time Messiah died). 2) The main harvest yet future that will resurrect the righteous of the last 2000 years. 3) And the corners of the field "gleanings" that are harvested afterward, which are those that become righteous thru faith after seeing the resurrection in number 2. Simple, elegant, and a total fulfillment of the Torah. All praise to the Father and the Messiah!
Messiah said he came not to nullify the Torah, but to fulfill it. And the volume of the book was written of Him. Blessed be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and blessed be our savior, Yeshua.
Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Only righteous are considered saints. Right?
So does this mean, as you contend that there are no multiple resurrections, this is the only one and there will be no future resurrections? I guess there is no hope, so why is anyone even discussing this. I guess we can say... case closed. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.
These resurrected saints did not die again. They were taken with Yeshua when he ascended to the father (remember that Yeshua told Mary not to handle Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father). He was resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits, per the Torah. He ascended to the Father with those saints that were resurrected at that time, to present them as the First Fruits of the harvest, per the requirements of the Torah.
Again, Yeshua used the example of the harvest many times in His ministry to us. And the details of how the harvest is to be done is in Leviticus.
Some just don't see Messiah in the Torah. Even though Yeshua said the volume of the book was written of Him. Another example where this is true is the law regarding unintentional killing. What of one who is guilty of what we would call "manslaughter", but not guilty of murder? Numbers 35 covers this.
If one is guilty of manslaughter, they are to flee to a city of refuge and remain there until the death of the High Priest and then they are free to leave. The avenger of blood (a family member) of the deceased is not allowed to touch the one guilty.
We all are guilty of the death of Messiah, Yeshua. But He said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" Luke 23. So Yeshua declared from the cross, that we are guilty of manslaughter, not murder.
Therefore, to be protected from the avenger of blood (the wrath of the Father), we are to flee to the city of refuge, which is the risen Messiah. And we are to remain there until the death of the High Priest. Messiah is our High Priest who will never die again. Thus we will live, though we are guilty.
All thru the Torah, every aspect of everything that will occur future is laid out. The Feasts of Leviticus 23 for example. And the resurrection is also outlined in the harvest rules that Yeshua pointed us to. And there are three parts to the harvest. 1) The gathering of the First Fruits (those resurrected at the time Messiah died). 2) The main harvest yet future that will resurrect the righteous of the last 2000 years. 3) And the corners of the field "gleanings" that are harvested afterward, which are those that become righteous thru faith after seeing the resurrection in number 2. Simple, elegant, and a total fulfillment of the Torah. All praise to the Father and the Messiah!
Messiah said he came not to nullify the Torah, but to fulfill it. And the volume of the book was written of Him. Blessed be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and blessed be our savior, Yeshua.
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Yes exactly. Not true.
Please read the very plain words.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23
- afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
Those who are Christ’s will be resurrected from the dead at His coming.
Couldn’t be any more plain and simple.
JLB
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When the resurrection occurs at His coming, we who are His will have immortal bodies that will not die anymore.
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5
This is the first resurrection.
This is the first resurrection and occurs at His coming.
JLB
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Go ahead, keep hanging your hat on that. I am sure it will comfort you.
But as the Torah is clear about, it requires the testimony of two witnesses to establish anything. And those witnesses are both the OT and the NT. Yeshua pointed us to the harvest. And the harvest has been elaborated on in both the OT and the NT.
I'll hang my hat on that.
Regarding the "first resurrection", one can have a "first resurrection" and it be associated with a particular period. Like there can be a first day of the week, but it not be the first day of the month. In the reference you gave, the time of the end. Indeed, at the time of the end, there is a first and second resurrection, but that doesn't mean they are the only resurrections.
Therefore, the question remains, how do you explain the resurrection of the righteous that occurred at the time of Yeshua's death on the cross? That preceded any resurrection of the righteous in Revelation. Yet, both instances are AFTER Yeshua paid the price for us by being killed in our place. It is by his death we are made righteous. The penalty for sin has been paid.
That is the conundrum you have to resolve. How can one that preceded another not be the first according to your assertion? I have told you how Yeshua pointed us to the harvest, which gives the resolution. You just choose not to acknowledge it.
But as the Torah is clear about, it requires the testimony of two witnesses to establish anything. And those witnesses are both the OT and the NT. Yeshua pointed us to the harvest. And the harvest has been elaborated on in both the OT and the NT.
I'll hang my hat on that.
Regarding the "first resurrection", one can have a "first resurrection" and it be associated with a particular period. Like there can be a first day of the week, but it not be the first day of the month. In the reference you gave, the time of the end. Indeed, at the time of the end, there is a first and second resurrection, but that doesn't mean they are the only resurrections.
Therefore, the question remains, how do you explain the resurrection of the righteous that occurred at the time of Yeshua's death on the cross? That preceded any resurrection of the righteous in Revelation. Yet, both instances are AFTER Yeshua paid the price for us by being killed in our place. It is by his death we are made righteous. The penalty for sin has been paid.
That is the conundrum you have to resolve. How can one that preceded another not be the first according to your assertion? I have told you how Yeshua pointed us to the harvest, which gives the resolution. You just choose not to acknowledge it.
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It’s the simple truth and can not be refuted.
You can cite the Torah all you want.
The New Testament is clear and is what we use to establish doctrine.
Your misunderstanding of the Old Testament, to twist the clear and plain words of truth were warned about by Peter and Paul.
desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
1 Timothy 1:7
And again
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16
Again, here are three facts that occur at His coming.
The 3 major things that occur at His coming:
- The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
- The Rapture.
- The destruction of the antichrist.
Once each person comes to understand these three major truths that occur at His coming, there will be no more confusion about this doctrine.
JLB
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You say that as if you dismiss the Torah. I hope that isn't true. The Torah was written of Messiah, as He stated. Even the Bereans searched the scripture daily to see is what Paul taught them was true. All they had was the Torah, the writings, the Prophets... the OT or Tanakh. Any assertions we make from the New must be confirmed by the Tanakh.
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Do you understand that Jesus is Lord;
YHWH?
Do you understand that the Church began with Abraham?
JLB
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I am finding it hard to find a church that DOESN'T believe in a pre-trib. rapture. They even say post-trib. is unscriptural, except I can't find pre-trib. in the scriptures!
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None of the trib positions are explicitly mentioned in scripture. But there are passages that would suggest various positions and which ones depends on the passages that are focused on, the context, how they are viewed against other verses, and whether the scripture is viewed via a literal or allegorical approach. The Trinity or triune nature of God is not explicitly stated in scripture, but there are many verses that point to just that.
So it is pretty myopic, or at worse biased, to say that just because one doesn't see a position in scripture that it isn't there, though it may be and they don't agree with it. JW's say the Trinity is unscriptural because there is no mention of the Trinity in scripture. But it is a solid, foundational theological concept in historical Christianity nonetheless.
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Do you understand that Jesus is Lord;
YHWH?
Do you understand that the Church began with Abraham?
JLB
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The answer was in the question I asked you in response to when you asked me this same thing before. Me thinks ye are trying to be contentious.
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DeaconDean
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The Church will be gathered together to Him in clouds, the resurrection and rapture, at His Coming.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
There are 3 scriptural facts that concern the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which once these 3 things are known, there is no more confusion about this subject.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.
- And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16
- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17
- Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
The 3 major things that occur at His coming:
- The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
- The Rapture.
- The destruction of the antichrist.
Once each person comes to understand these three major truths that occur at His coming, there will be no more confusion about this doctrine.
JLB
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DeaconDean
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Once you have honestly addressed my post and honestly answered my question then I will be glad to show how Acts 1:10-11 fits with these scriptures.
Based on 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
Do you agree that the resurrection and rapture takes place at His coming?
Do you agree that the destruction of the antichrist takes place at His coming?
If not then please state why with the scriptural support.
The Church will be gathered together to Him in clouds, the resurrection and rapture, at His Coming.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
There are 3 scriptural facts that concern the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which once these 3 things are known, there is no more confusion about this subject.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.
- And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16
- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17
- Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
The 3 major things that occur at His coming:
- The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
- The Rapture.
- The destruction of the antichrist.
Once each person comes to understand these three major truths that occur at His coming, there will be no more confusion about this doctrine.
JLB
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DeaconDean
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Yes to a certain degree. This is not the first resurrection. There was a resurrection when Jesus arose from the grave.
No.
Because you haven't said which coming.
First off, this is my area, not so much yours.
Secondly, its not proper for you to come here and make demands.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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