The New and Improved No-Straw-Man Challenge

Hammster · May 6, 2024

Let me start by saying that this is a Soteriology thread. The challenge presented will stay within that realm.

I have noticed lately that there have been what I would consider strawman arguments against reformed theology, or if you’d prefer Calvinism. Understandably, when people present these challenges, they think that they are accurately representing what Calvinism teaches. For instance, one of the most recent arguments is that in Calvinism, God forces people to believe. So here is the challenge.

Using notable doctrines with reform theology, such as the Canons of Dort, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the London Baptist Confession of Faith, or Calvin‘s Institutes of Christian Religion, make your argument on whatever issue you have against Calvinism, but you must be able to quote one of these sources to support your claim. I will allow other sources, but they must be something that is considered in historic document document within reformed theology (Heidelberg catechism, for example).

Have fun.

Dan Perez · May 7, 2024

Hammster said:
Let me start by saying that this is a Soteriology thread. The challenge presented will stay within that realm.

I have noticed lately that there have been what I would consider strawman arguments against reformed theology, or if you’d prefer Calvinism. Understandably, when people present these challenges, they think that they are accurately representing what Calvinism teaches. For instance, one of the most recent arguments is that in Calvinism, God forces people to believe. So here is the challenge.

Using notable doctrines with reform theology, such as the Canons of Dort, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the London Baptist Confession of Faith, or Calvin‘s Institutes of Christian Religion, make your argument on whatever issue you have against Calvinism, but you must be able to quote one of these sources to support your claim. I will allow other sources, but they must be something that is considered in historic document document within reformed theology (Heidelberg catechism, for example).

Have fun.

Lets begin that I am NO fan of Calvin nor of TULIP and no fan of LIMITED ATONEMENT , but will be happy to engage you or anyone .

My first question to you is , where did ATONEMENT begin ?

I say it began in Gen 3:21 , what say you ??

dan p

Hammster · May 7, 2024

Dan Perez said:
Lets begin that I am NO fan of Calvin nor of TULIP and no fan of LIMITED ATONEMENT , but will be happy to engage you or anyone .

My first question to you is , where did ATONEMENT begin ?

I say it began in Gen 3:21 , what say you ??

dan p

That’s not how the OP is set up. You make a claim about something you think is the result of Calvinism (like calvinism makes us puppets) and support the claim with some writing from the reformers.

bbbbbbb · May 8, 2024

Hammster said:
That’s not how the OP is set up. You make a claim about something you think is the result of Calvinism (like calvinism makes us puppets) and support the claim with some writing from the reformers.

That is the problem, indeed. I agree with you that most people, including what I term neo-Calvinists, fail to understand Reformed theology in all of its historic manifestations, even beginning with Augustine, the noted monergist, who, despite being declared a saint, had his theology trashed at the Council of Trent.

John Mullally · Monday at 11:01 AM

Hammster said:
Let me start by saying that this is a Soteriology thread. The challenge presented will stay within that realm.

I have noticed lately that there have been what I would consider strawman arguments against reformed theology, or if you’d prefer Calvinism. Understandably, when people present these challenges, they think that they are accurately representing what Calvinism teaches. For instance, one of the most recent arguments is that in Calvinism, God forces people to believe. So here is the challenge.

Let me show you the argument for how God according to Calvin controls us all like puppets - which would include all manner of forcing. Calvin states that God not only governs our movements, but our wills as well - how is that not puppetry?

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

Hammster said:
Using notable doctrines with reform theology, such as the Canons of Dort, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the London Baptist Confession of Faith, or Calvin‘s Institutes of Christian Religion, make your argument on whatever issue you have against Calvinism, but you must be able to quote one of these sources to support your claim. I will allow other sources, but they must be something that is considered in historic document document within reformed theology (Heidelberg catechism, for example).

Have fun.

The above may be shown to back away from Calvin's roughest edges. The bigger question is why does anyone follow Calvin? This is a link to Calvin's most egregious statements: John Calvin Quotes – The Calvinism of John Calvin – Are Calvinists REALLY “Calvinists”?

Hammster · Monday at 12:10 PM

John Mullally said:
Let me show you the argument for how Calvin controls us all like puppets - which would include all manner of forcing. Calvin states that God not only governs our movements, but our wills as well - how is that not puppetry?

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

The above may be shown to back away from Calvin's roughest edges. The bigger question is why does anyone follow Calvin? This is a link to Calvin's most egregious statements: John Calvin Quotes – The Calvinism of John Calvin – Are Calvinists REALLY “Calvinists”?

Just so I’m clear, is it your assertion that the only way God can control man is as a puppet master?

John Mullally · Monday at 7:33 PM

Hammster said:
Sorry. I misspoke in my haste.

That is fine - I had no thoughts of tattling on you.

Hammster said:
Is it your assertion that in Calvinism, the only way God can control man is as a puppet master?

You think of God as man's controller - I don't share that view. God being Sovereign does not imply control freak. It seems that you did not fully examine my Post 7 where I show that even using drastic measures God did not control Paul, Jonah, or Balaam and thus some (i.e. Jonah and Balaam) rebelled.

God has a history of allowing rebellion starting with Satan. The rebellion will eventually end with the rebels eliminated as they reside in hell.

This may help: God's promises concerning prayer and preaching are true - he will move circumstances to achieve His promises. Going back to early beginnings we see how God dealt with Abimelech (Genesis 20:1-18) in order to achieve His promises to a Abraham. Scripture says that Abraham was a friend of God - so follow his example and take hope!

Remember that it is Calvin's statements (reference my Post 5), not scripture, that presents God as puppet master. Does that offend anyone? Do I need to preemptively apologize?

Hammster · Tuesday at 1:28 AM

John Mullally said:
That is fine - I had no thoughts of tattling on you.

You think of God as man's controller - I don't share that view. God being Sovereign does not imply control freak. It seems that you did not fully examine my Post 7 where I show that even using drastic measures God did not control Paul, Jonah, or Balaam and thus some (i.e. Jonah and Balaam) rebelled.

God has a history of allowing rebellion starting with Satan. The rebellion will eventually end with the rebels eliminated as they reside in hell.

This may help: God's promises concerning prayer and preaching are true - he will move circumstances to achieve His promises. Going back to early beginnings we see how God dealt with Abimelech (Genesis 20:1-18) in order to achieve His promises to a Abraham. Scripture says that Abraham was a friend of God - so follow his example and take hope!

Remember that it is Calvin's statements (reference my Post 5), not scripture, that presents God as puppet master. Does that offend anyone? Do I need to preemptively apologize?

The reason I ask about “puppet master” is that it paints a picture. It’s also a term that neither Calvin nor any other reformer has used. It implies active control of every aspect of our lives. I don’t see that Calvin means this, even though it’s your conclusion.

I think there’s scriptural arguments that can be made that show that God controls events. Which means controlling people. But I don’t think He needs to pull strings to accomplish that.

John Mullally · Tuesday at 2:17 AM

Hammster said:
The reason I ask about “puppet master” is that it paints a picture. It’s also a term that neither Calvin nor any other reformer has used. It implies active control of every aspect of our lives. I don’t see that Calvin means this, even though it’s your conclusion.

Most don't want to view themselves as a puppet, but if God governs your will and actions (as Calvin states), that is happening, I believe that egregious quotes from Calvin such as below pushed many Calvinists to rebrand themselves to the more innocuous Such and Such Presbyterian, Reformed, or Grace church.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

Hammster said:
I think there’s scriptural arguments that can be made that show that God controls events. Which means controlling people. But I don’t think He needs to pull strings to accomplish that

If God is controlling events, the method, such as string pulling or non-string pulling, is immaterial - as we cannot do otherwise.

There are scriptural arguments to show that God controlled Exodus and the Crucifixion. But Calvin and his ilk go much further in stating that God decreed every evil that ever happened: such as every cookie jar theft, and all the sick details of every murder and rape. Let the Amen choir say "Sicko".

Hammster · Tuesday at 2:28 AM

John Mullally said:
Most don't want to view themselves as a puppet, but if God governs your will and actions (as Calvin states), that is happening, I believe that egregious quotes from Calvin such as below caused Calvinists to rebrand themselves to the more innocuous Such and Such Presbyterian, Reformed, or Grace church.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

If God is controlling events, the method, such as string pulling or non-string pulling, is immaterial - as we cannot do otherwise.

There are scriptural arguments to show that God controlled Exodus and the Crucifixion. But Calvin and his ilk go much further in stating that God decreed every evil that ever happened: such as all the sick details of every murder and rape. Let the congregation say Amen and Sicko

Just so I can get an idea of your view of God’s abilities, do you believe that God can stop any evil act of man if He chooses to do so?

John Mullally · Tuesday at 2:39 AM

Hammster said:
Just so I can get an idea of your view of God’s abilities, do you believe that God can stop any evil act of man if He chooses to do so?

Jesus gave His all authority to the Church (Matthew 28:18-20). The church is termed the body of Christ. We can't wish away responsibility: The ability to stop evil is now up to Christ's body under the headship of Jesus.

Hammster · Tuesday at 3:16 AM

John Mullally said:
Jesus gave His all authority to the Church (Matthew 28:18-20). The church is termed the body of Christ. We can't wish away responsibility: The ability to stop evil is now up to Christ's body under the headship of Jesus. Reformed churches don't know this!

That’s an interesting answer. So what evil acts can the church stop?

John Mullally · Tuesday at 3:24 AM

Hammster said:
That’s an interesting answer. So what evil acts can the church stop?

In theory, the same ones Jesus stopped (review the Gospels) in His earthly ministry. As Jesus put off divinity and operated as a man on the earth, trained his disciples, and gave them no slack. When Jesus walked on water, he commanded Peter to do likewise - and that worked until Peter lost focus.

Hammster · Tuesday at 3:28 AM

John Mullally said:
In theory, the same ones Jesus stopped (review the Gospels) in His earthly ministry. As Jesus put off divinity and operated as a man on the earth, trained his disciples, and gave them no slack. When Jesus walked on water, he commanded Peter to do likewise - and that worked until Peter lost focus.

Practically, how can a church stop a man who wants to rape a woman? Or tell a lie? Or steal a pen?

bbbbbbb · Tuesday at 8:17 AM

That is a curious proposition. Today we have a chap in Moscow who is actively promoting genocide and another chap in Rome who claims to have the power to prevent such things. So, has the genocide stopped because of the church? Not at all. The chap in Rome sent some advice to the chap in Moscow that it might not be a good idea to align ones church with a genocidal tyrant.

The church is utterly impotent. In case you might believe that neither of these chaps are actually true members of the church, I would add that no other church on earth has created peace in this situation.

fhansen · Tuesday at 9:33 AM

Hammster said:
The reason I ask about “puppet master” is that it paints a picture. It’s also a term that neither Calvin nor any other reformer has used. It implies active control of every aspect of our lives. I don’t see that Calvin means this, even though it’s your conclusion.

I think there’s scriptural arguments that can be made that show that God controls events. Which means controlling people. But I don’t think He needs to pull strings to accomplish that.

If God so calls and moves and changes my will or disposition such that I cannot possibly choose but one way rather than the other then I am not involved in that choice. I'm compelled to say "yes". If, however, God calls and moves me towards that choice but His grace is resistible in than I can still say "no" to it, then I am involved in that choice, however weakly that might be at first. And that's the way He works, wanting His children to be responsible for their actions to the greatest extent they can, like any good parent does; faith, hope, and love are gifts of grace-and human choices to accept and express those gifts IOW. Daily choices. And that's how Christianity has understood this matter since the beginning.

Hammster · Tuesday at 10:14 AM

fhansen said:
If God so calls and moves and changes my will or disposition such that I cannot possibly choose but one way rather than the other then I am not involved in that choice. I'm compelled to say "yes". If, however, God calls and moves me towards that choice but His grace is resistible in than I can still say "no" to it, then I am involved in that choice, however weakly that might be at first. And that's the way He works, wanting His children to be responsible for their actions to the greatest extent they can, like any good parent does; faith, hope, and love are gifts of grace-and human choices to accept and express those gifts IOW. Daily choices. And that's how Christianity has understood this matter since the beginning.

Would you be against this, then?

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

or

And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the LORD had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
— Ezra 6:22

or

And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
— Revelation 6:4

bling · Tuesday at 12:40 PM

Hammster said:
Practically, how can a church stop a man who wants to rape a woman? Or tell a lie? Or steal a pen?

The Church is not spending time here on earth trying to make earth a heavenly (sinless) place.

God allows sin to happen, both to provide opportunities to Christians to show, experience, give, accept, teach, and grow Godly type Love and to provide opportunities for non-Christians to see, experience, receive, accept and desire Godly type Love.

This messed up tragic world is the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. The best things for willing individuals to fulfill their objective drives what God allows and/or does and what humans will be allowed or forced to do, but humans still have to make some very limited mental free will choices to accept or reject God’s help (Love, charity, grace, mercy and forgiveness) in order to Love.

bbbbbbb · Tuesday at 12:46 PM

bling said:
The Church is not spending time here on earth trying to make earth a heavenly (sinless) place.

God allows sin to happen, both to provide opportunities to Christians to show, experience, give, accept, teach, and grow Godly type Love and to provide opportunities for non-Christians to see, experience, receive, accept and desire Godly type Love.

This messed up tragic world is the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. The best things for willing individuals to fulfill their objective drives what God allows and/or does and what humans will be allowed or forced to do, but humans still have to make some very limited mental free will choices to accept or reject God’s help (Love, charity, grace, mercy and forgiveness) in order to Love.

Previously you wrote, "The ability to stop evil is now up to Christ's body under the headship of Jesus." Apparently Christ's body under the headship of Jesus has no real ability to stop evil. Did you actually mean responsibility rather than ability?

Hammster · Tuesday at 1:12 PM

bling said:
The Church is not spending time here on earth trying to make earth a heavenly (sinless) place.

God allows sin to happen, both to provide opportunities to Christians to show, experience, give, accept, teach, and grow Godly type Love and to provide opportunities for non-Christians to see, experience, receive, accept and desire Godly type Love.

This messed up tragic world is the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. The best things for willing individuals to fulfill their objective drives what God allows and/or does and what humans will be allowed or forced to do, but humans still have to make some very limited mental free will choices to accept or reject God’s help (Love, charity, grace, mercy and forgiveness) in order to Love.

So you would agree that if God allows sin, He certainly could stop it as well.

The New and Improved No-Straw-Man Challenge

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

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The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

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The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

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The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

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The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

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The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

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The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

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The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

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The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

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