Israel-Hamas Thread II

essentialsaltes

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Israel’s offensive is destroying Gaza’s ability to grow its own food

Israeli airstrikes and bulldozers have razed farms and orchards. Crops abandoned by farmers seeking safety in southern Gaza have withered, and cattle have been left to die.

“With very narrow exceptions, it’s prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless those objects [water and food infrastructure]” said Tom Dannenbaum, an associate professor of international law at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.

He Yin, a satellite imagery analyst and assistant professor at Kent State University, found that close to half of the Strip’s olive and fruit trees were damaged or destroyed as of April 3. In north Gaza, he said, the losses could be as high as 71 percent.

In northern Gaza, residents told The Post they had been surviving on khoubiza, a leafy green that grows naturally in the winter. But when spring came, this source of sustenance disappeared.

Strawberry fields not forever.
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Kokavkrystallos

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So now we got this going on:

Report: Hamas Accepts Gaza Cease-fire Deal; Israeli Officials Reject Prospect of War Ending

According to the report, Hamas was guaranteed by the U.S. for a full Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and that Israeli forces will not continue fighting once the hostages are released ■ An Israeli official told Haaretz that 'Israel will, under no circumstances, agree to end the war as part of a deal' and is determined to enter Rafah

(Don't ya love how the US guarantees a full Israeli withdrawal and they won't continue fighting? And what will we do when they don't?)
 
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Pommer

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So now we got this going on:

Report: Hamas Accepts Gaza Cease-fire Deal; Israeli Officials Reject Prospect of War Ending

According to the report, Hamas was guaranteed by the U.S. for a full Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and that Israeli forces will not continue fighting once the hostages are released ■ An Israeli official told Haaretz that 'Israel will, under no circumstances, agree to end the war as part of a deal' and is determined to enter Rafah

(Don't ya love how the US guarantees a full Israeli withdrawal and they won't continue fighting? And what will we do when they don't?)
Maybe it’s me, but your parenthetical remarks sound awfully gleeful.
 
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Ana the Ist

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War is tragic and unlike plagues, pandemics, earthquakes, wildfires, floods, and volcanic eruptions, war is the specific result of human action.

True.


War is an un-natural disaster.

Disagree. Chimpanzees also go to war. It is in our nature, and therefore natural.


When you make an argument, one of the things that is important is where you choose to begin.

I think a substantive point is more important but this is an aesthetic choice.


The flaw in this is of course that the argument starts without assessing what led to the events of that date.

All historical arguments have this flaw unless you intend to start at the beginning of known history.
Yet whilst I deplore the brutal nature of what happened, one has to ask if the Palestinians have a just cause.

This assumes one can engage in war "justly" but go on...

Around 1900 the Palestinians accounted for 94% of the population of the region. In the wake of the rise of the Zionist movement in the late 19th century (the late 1800s) there was a rise in Jewish migration to the area.

How did those Jewish migrants acquire land? Did they buy plots from the British?

*Hint* - yes they did.



Lord Balfour (whose painting was slashed recently at Cambridge University) was responsible for some duplicitous dealing with Lawrence of Arabia and King Faisal which led to the Balfour Declaration marking Britain's commitment to the establishment of a Jewish State without regard to the people who were living there.

This is an odd characterization.

Between the British and French....a lot of nations were created but sure...they didn't ask this particular group of locals for input.



The practice of ignoring the Palestinian people's existence has continued apace,

That's an odd way to consider all the fighting and violence.

Ignoring.



including the 1948 establishment of the Jewish State, and the 1967 (link here) which quite simply fails to mention the Palestinians at all. So if you start the argument there, you may well reach a different conclusion, logically and correctly.

That's not an argument from logic, and it's not exactly correct. Lots of that land was bought up by Jewish immigrants who paid the British. If there's something wrong with Jewish immigrants buying land from British owners....feel free to spell it out.

Also, while I can appreciate the very one-sided picture you're trying to paint....let's not ignore the European leaders who didn't ignore the Palestinians....

mufti.jpeg


No doubt that the grand Mufti would have been horrified to learn of the holocaust and these two pranksters were just bonding over their shared hatred of Jews.

Anyway...


Ultimately you have to start somewhere. If you start with the children of Noah, and specifically Shem, you might conclude that this is a family argument where the children don't want to play nicely and share things as nice children ought properly to do.

War.



Genesis 17:8 is another place to begin "And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God." and many argue that this makes Israel's case

Or the fact that a lot of the land was bought from the British....

UN Resolution 181 was the first proposal for an Arab state (Palestine) in the region....and was rather swiftly rejected by the Arabs in the disputed area in the late 40s if I'm not mistaken.

That led to a little fight called the 1st Arab/Israeli War.

At the close of that conflict...the neighboring and in many cases distant Arab nations decided to persecute and exile most of their Jewish populations....which also dramatically increased the population of early Israel.


This war may well be won or lost on the streets of Washington and Tel Aviv. The problem is, as I noted on observer remarking the other day, the world has moved from a post-war world to a pre-war world, and I regard that as a matter of great concern.

I don't know that I'd ever regard a period as a "post war world" but that's a matter of perspective....

I think the only argument I can consider worth having during this conflict is "what is the best outcome for the Palestinian people?"

When I consider the condition of those Palestinians within Palestine and those outside of Palestine....I'm inclined to believe that a mass exodus and abandonment of the idea of a Palestinian state is arguably the best possible future for the youngest Palestinians. This war ended back in the 60s. Everything since then has been in denial of that fact.
 
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Ana the Ist

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So now we got this going on:

Report: Hamas Accepts Gaza Cease-fire Deal; Israeli Officials Reject Prospect of War Ending

According to the report, Hamas was guaranteed by the U.S. for a full Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and that Israeli forces will not continue fighting once the hostages are released ■ An Israeli official told Haaretz that 'Israel will, under no circumstances, agree to end the war as part of a deal' and is determined to enter Rafah

(Don't ya love how the US guarantees a full Israeli withdrawal and they won't continue fighting? And what will we do when they don't?)

I agree that this administration isn't handling the situation well.

That's as kindly as I can say it. We obviously aren't going to go house to house fighting and killing Jews.

If I had to guess? That's one of those things said by a politician on an election year. It's a promise to cure cancer.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Israeli government says it will block Al Jazeera from broadcasting

The Israeli parliament has approved a law giving the government the power to ban broadcasts of TV channels including Al Jazeera, the Qatari-owned network.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he would "act immediately" to close the network's local office.
The US expressed concern over the move.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Sunday that his government decided unanimously to shut down Al Jazeera’s Israeli operations. It was not immediately clear how or when the shutdown order would take effect. Israeli Communications Minister Shlomo Karhi vowed to “immediately implement” it.

Last month, Israeli lawmakers voted 71-10 in favor of a bill that would allow Netanyahu’s government to ban Al Jazeera from operating in Israel, citing national security concerns over the Doha-based network’s coverage of the war in Gaza.

In a statement, Al Jazeera said ... that its websites has been blocked and some transmissions halted, while its staff had found their accreditations withdrawn.
 
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Philip_B

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Disagree. Chimpanzees also go to war. It is in our nature, and therefore natural.
War, unlike pandemics, and earthquakes, ... requires a decision by a sentient being to engage in conflict for whatever reason. You argue that we should act like chimpanzees, or that it is OK because chimpanzees do 'don't impress me much'. More likely I would form the view that the description of the conflict in or between chimpanzee communities as 'war' is part of a habit we have of anthropomorphizing some members of the animal kingdom.
That's an odd way to consider all the fighting and violence.

Ignoring.
Lord Balfour certainly had no intention of truly seeing or hearing the concerns, and Golda Meir went so far as to say 'There is no such thing as a Palestinian'. Oddly, you don't see that.

When I consider the condition of those Palestinians within Palestine and those outside of Palestine....I'm inclined to believe that a mass exodus and abandonment of the idea of a Palestinian state is arguably the best possible future for the youngest Palestinians. This war ended back in the 60s. Everything since then has been in denial of that fact.
Beautifully arrogant in the extreme.

I am neither anti-Israeli nor pro-Palestinian.
 
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Ana the Ist

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War, unlike pandemics, and earthquakes, ... requires a decision by a sentient being to engage in conflict for whatever reason.

Right.


You argue that we should act like chimpanzees,

I didn't argue that...


or that it is OK because chimpanzees do 'don't impress me much'.

I was simply pointing out that it's natural....a facet of nature.


More likely I would form the view that the description of the conflict in or between chimpanzee communities as 'war' is part of a habit we have of anthropomorphizing some members of the animal kingdom.

There's been a fair amount of research on the topic. Chimpanzees will go to war for reasons unrelated to instinctual territory disputes or competition over resources.

I hope that clears up what I meant.

Lord Balfour certainly had no intention of truly seeing or hearing the concerns, and Golda Meir went so far as to say 'There is no such thing as a Palestinian'. Oddly, you don't see that.

I'm not sure exactly what the criticism is here....

Would the British not be blamed if, for every nation they created out of the post-Ottoman collapse, they sat and listened to the concerns of every local tribe or group....and then ignored them in the creation of new states?

Or should they have carved out several hundred little plots across the middle east for everyone with a mind to complain?

Surely you're aware that even much larger and more powerful groups like the Kurds also didn't get their own little nations....right?

Had they formed a Palestinian state....do you think this would have prevented the creation of an Israeli state and why?



Beautifully arrogant in the extreme.

I'm handsome at best.

I am neither anti-Israeli nor pro-Palestinian.

I'll try to keep that in mind.
 
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Philip_B

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Surely you're aware that even much larger and more powerful groups like the Kurds also didn't get their own little nations....right?

Had they formed a Palestinian state....do you think this would have prevented the creation of an Israeli state and why?
Kurds: Of course, this is a side track to the discussion, however, my view is that the Kurds have been treated abominably by pretty much everyone, and as a result, they are still what many regard as a problem.

Palestine: Effectively the mandated territory was the basis for a Palestinian state. It was not an accident that they fell off the map.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Kurds: Of course, this is a side track to the discussion, however, my view is that the Kurds have been treated abominably by pretty much everyone, and as a result, they are still what many regard as a problem.

The only reason I brought them up was because they are the largest ethnic group without their own nation and treated as second class citizens in many of the places they inhabit. This can of course be described as a result of European powers making the decisions on who controls what in the middle east post Ottoman collapse.


Palestine: Effectively the mandated territory was the basis for a Palestinian state. It was not an accident that they fell off the map.

But in no way entirely the fault of the British. Multiple opportunities for a peaceful 2 state solution were rejected by the Palestinians in the past 100 years. The neighboring Arab nations refuse to recognize Palestinians who flee Gaza or the West Bank as refugees....leaving them in limbo regarding their citizenship and national allegiance. Then of course, you have the choices of the Palestinians themselves apart from the wars....like the first and second Intifada. It's a tragic situation all around... but it only continues because for some reason, it's treated as if it must be given infinite opportunities to succeed.
 
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Chesterton

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essentialsaltes

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Israeli military captures Palestinian side of Rafah crossing

Israel's military has seized the Palestinian side of the Rafah crossing, a vital entry point for aid to Gaza on the Egyptian border. A Palestinian official said all movement had stopped at the facility after it was captured by Israeli tanks.

  • Palestinian civilians told to evacuateeastern Rafah by the Israeli military have described their fear and despair. More than 1 million Palestinians had fled to the city during the seven-month war.
 
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ralliann

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Israeli military captures Palestinian side of Rafah crossing

Israel's military has seized the Palestinian side of the Rafah crossing, a vital entry point for aid to Gaza on the Egyptian border. A Palestinian official said all movement had stopped at the facility after it was captured by Israeli tanks.

  • Palestinian civilians told to evacuateeastern Rafah by the Israeli military have described their fear and despair. More than 1 million Palestinians had fled to the city during the seven-month war.
I wonder if the Israeli and American Hostages have feared and despaired their rape and torture the whole time?
 
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