Trivalee said:

I don't know how to break my response into bits as you did, so I will just muddle everything together. The issue is the contextual prophetic interpretation of 'sea'; it's unfortunate that you went off on an unnecessary lecture about the beasts of Dan 7, but that's OK.

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Its been awhile. I will try to resume some talk. But my heart really is on what here can help us to love the coming Lord more. You may notice me trying to lean into those paramaters. For some things are not that worth arguing too much over.

Trivalee said:

I'm not sure you proofread before you post because your position is a bit contradictory. On the one hand, you said: "you have no problem and believe it's good to go with what you were taught which is that the 'sea' prophetically denotes "the gentile world and Israel". You inexplicably went on to dismantle the very thing you said you believed in by proving that 'sea', in the context it was used, actually denotes the earth.

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If I recall rightly I said the sea in symbolsim in Revelation 13 I take to be the Gentile world. Interestingly the land is the source of the other beast in Revelation 13. There must be a difference. John could have easily said both beasts came out of the sea or both came out of the land. So I am persuaded that a difference is specified because one beast is of the Gentiles and the other is of Israel.

Rev. 13:1 - "And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea . . . ".
Rev. 13:11 - "And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth . . .".
I am persuaded the Gentile world in contrast to the land of Israel is the meaning - Antichrist from the Gentiles and his false prophet from the Jews. . . something like that.

Now one could also say "Two evil people will arise on earth - Antichrist and his false prophet."

Now think about it for a moment. What would be more pernicious and deceiving? What's coming is a Gentile world leader making covenant with Israel (which he breaks) and him being supported by a JEWISH false prophet. This has Satan's style of deception all over it.

Now, I also take the sea in places in Daniel to mean the Gentile world. Ie. the four beasts out of the sea in Dan. 7:1-28. This recollection is cursory without me re-reading everything right now. Now going on memory this early morning, I think I said, and still would say Daniel 7:17 is not allegorically contradicting what Dan. 7:3 says at all.

Dan. 7:3 - "And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other."
Dan. 7:17 - "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings who will arise from the earth."

In the symbolism of verse 3 the sea is the Gentile world.
In the explanation of verse 17 the earth is simply the earth in a general way.
You have to admit EITHER a Gentile king or a Jewish king in that sense are on the earth.

Trivalee said:

My point is that the way 'sea' was used, denotes the people of the earth, period. There is no distinction between Gentile and Jew/Israel as far as the analogy goes. So, the term, "Gentile world and Israel" is an unnecessary insertion that scripture didn't make.

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I see your point, I think. However the specific difference in Revelation 13:1 and 13:11 [edited] convinces me Gentile and Jew the symbolism means. And other contributing factors convince me that we're on the right track to interpret it this way.

Trivalee said:

You used Daniel 7:17 - "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings who will arise from the earth." to prove the 'sea' is a symbolic representation of the people of the earth.

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I am not re-reading my post at the moment. But that sounds like I would be confusing and contradictory.
You may disagree of course. But understand what you are disagreeing with.

In the interpretation of the vision of the four beasts out of the sea the interpreting messenger says that they are four kings which arise on the earth. All political powers of human history other that the kingdom of God (whether Jewish or Gentile) arose from and on the earth. Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece, and the Roman empire are all of the Gentile world.
Yet of course being worldly they arose from the earth.

Thier kings were all of the Gentile world.
And they of course all arose on the earth. None came from heaven.

Again, not re-studying above posts just yet - the little horn from the four horns of the goat prefigures Antichrist ultimately.
That little horn is the same as the beast (generally) in Revelation 13:1 which comes up out of the sea symbolizing, I think, the Gentile world. His accomplice is a dreadful beast which comes out of the land of Israel in 13:11 is a Jewish false prophet. I stand with this interpretation. Other views are considered. I think the surrounding evidences point to this scheme.

On the beast that came up out of the land in 13:11:

"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon." (v.11)

What I think is [edited] conveyed here is that this false prophet who provides all his evil supernatural support to the antichrist will be like Jesus the Jewish Messiah - two horns like a lamb (like Jesus the Lamb of God). But those with discernement can surely detect that in his speaking Satan's thoughts, Satan's schemes, and Satan's deception is detected. " . . . two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon."

The world is in for an abominable Gentile king who eventually sits in the (rebuilt) temple in Jerusalem proclaiming that ALL god worship is obsolete except the worship of him - the Antichrist. And accompanying this Gentile monster is man of Israel, a Jew of all people, throwing all his Satanic support behind this Gentile Antichrist. Thus the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth collarating together with all the deception Satan can muster up.

Now I did mention, I think, the sea signaling also the Mediterranean Sea. I think this means out of that portion of the world.
And Antichrist will erect an empire from the area genarlly being the same as the ancient Roman Empire.

Yes, on one hand the sea I take as the Gentile world and that around the Mediterranean Sea.
And the kingdom of Antichrist to be basically the area of the Roman Empire of old.
Antichrist will be a Gentile and his accomplice a Jew of all people.

May God bless all of your endeavors and may all future communions go well.

As it pertains to the shedding of דמם Blood, we are all too familiar with what that means in the Natural sense, but what about the Spiritual sense?

When Yeshua said we must eat his בשר Flesh, and drink his דמם Blood he was speaking Spiritually not Naturally (Carnally), equating our coming to him as Eating, and our Trust and Reliance as Drinking.

Wherefore we know that he was referring to Coming to his בשר Gospel, and Trusting and Relying on his Divine דמם Plan.

The Bread which he שבר Broke and declared to be his בשר Flesh, is a reference to שבר Translating the בשר Gospel, and in like manner, the Wine which he declared to be his דמם Blood, is shed, or rather extracted from his בשר Gospel, which again, is the Divine דמם Plan in which we are to Trust and Rely.

Thus to say, there is no remission of Sins without the Shedding of Blood (in the Natural sense), is the same as saying, there is no remission of Sin without (or outside of) the extraction of his Divine Plan (in a Spiritual sense).

Wherefore to Search the Scriptures which Testify of him goes far beyond searching the existing (fixed punctuated) translations.

rusmeister said:

Both goals are out of line with the mission of the Church as I understand it.

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they are. you nailed it, rus (unfortunately).

Luke 22:19 (NIV)

This is my body given for you, do this in remembrance of Me.

This passage reminds me of the chastisement coming upon a nation that is departing from God. Ignoring His voice.

Proverbs 1:20-33 KJV
20. Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21. She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22. How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23. Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25. But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26. I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27. When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30. They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

The jews are of abraham. But their grafted out of the olive tree. Unbelief. Romans chapter 11 will document this. The gentiles were granted in with Israel. Goes back to when rome conquered judah. God didn't send them. Judah sin and idolatry brought it upon them selves. They brought Rome on themselves. Then Jews expected Jesus to get the romans off thier back. Jesus fulfilled Isaiah chapter 61:1, the first advent. The Jews thought Jesus dis annulled the second advent. The Jews unbelief and resentment of christ is what got them grafted out of the olive tree. Jews put themselves in Bondage. CHANAK in Hebrew means = train up, discipline. The Jews rejected Jesus and apostles Paul. Galatians 3:22. But the scriptures hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of jesus christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 4:28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. The Jews have never claimed to be seed of isaac. But of Jacob. The promise is with isaac seed. Get the picture. Jews are grafted out of the olive tree. Acts 22;1. Men , brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defense which I make now unto you. 22:2. And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence;.2:3. I am verily a man which an a jew, born in Tarsus, a city in CILICIA, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as we all are this day. Paul was half gentile and of tribe of Benjamin. Judah and Benjamin always stuck together. Jews were willing to hear Paul speak. Their attention span is short lived. 22:22. And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live. The Jews rejected Paul's testimony. Paul would next go to the Gentiles. YADA in Hebrew means = advise, consider. Jews gave Paul their answer. ABDUWTH in Greek means = Bondage. Jews reject Jesus testimony, and embrace the Talmud, Jewish traditions. And Jews unbelief. I documented this.

silk way

Aussie Pete said:

Will anyone notice?

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Although the stink from politicians is pervasive at this time, the stench from the sargassum can cause respiratory problems near the beaches. So maybe.

Cis.jd said:

Well, the point was that Manga being the starters or innovators of the whole diversity can't be true because of Marvel, especially the X-men. The whole story of the X-men is inspired by the human rights stuff with Prof X. being inspired by MLK, and Magneto being inspired by Malcom X.

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Firstly I didn't say Manga are starter of diversity. It is through the decades they become that and modern American comics didn't achieve the same. Everything diverse about X-men & American comics are now already found in spades in manga. On top that even surpassing American comics in true diversity. Diversity in genre, characters, storylines, art style, age group, sexuality, ideology and many more. All this while remaining mainstream in Japan. Same can't be said about modern American comics industry. Mainstream comics are full of gatekeeping, changing of established characters, replacement of existing characters, limitation of ideology and limitation of sexual portrayal. These even extend down to even the artists. "Diversity" hire.

Cis.jd said:

Race, culture, gender, etc is what defines diversity though. It isn't a western only concept. What you are talking about is "variety". Also, i don't see how Marvel and DC never had any of the "diversity" you listed. Age groups: There have been many of this, all of the marvel characters have different personalities, gender, etc. Spiderman for example isn't like Ironman or Capt. America, he is actually an average joe who lives in a trash apartment and deals with a lot of human like problems, Punisher is complete anti-hero, Nightcrawler is religious, Magneto is a villain yet his views in some way are justifiable (politics), Mystique and Destiny (sexuality), I can go on with more. Art styles have also changed over time.

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diverse
adjective
1.
showing a great deal of variety; very different.
"subjects as diverse as architecture, language teaching, and the physical sciences"

2.
including or involving people from a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds and of different genders, sexual orientations, etc.
"our company is an equal opportunity employer committed to hiring a diverse workforce"

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Like I said westerners like to view diversity from the social political perspective. You just reaffirmed how much that is true. Where true diversity doesn't mean that. Manga is diverse because of variety and within that variety includes elements of social diversity. While comics today don't hold true diversity because your mainstream publishers have ideological mandates that limits the variety of stories & characters that can be told. It is a form of conformity in the guise of diversity.

Manga industry is based on meritocracy. The best story with the best sales. This foster competition and uniqueness which drive up diversity indirectly. Manga frees up the space for all stories to exist where American comics limits the space. That why way comics can't compete even in the aspect of diversity.

thanks for all your prayers

Welcome to Fruit and Truth Devotions
欢迎来到果实和真理敬拜
These devotions are unique, they are the only ones in the world (to my knowledge), that are in English and English with Chinese translation, underneath each other.. These will help my Chinese friends to learn English.
这些敬拜是独一无二的，他们是世上唯一(就我所知)以英文和英汉翻译所做的敬拜..这将有助于我的中国朋友们学习英文。
Below the devotions are two resource sections:
敬拜来自于以下两部分:
Soak in Scripture.. the very best sermons in English and Chinese
Intense intercession. Prayer for people groups and Countries
沉浸于经文中..非常好的英文布道和热切的汉语代祷。
为团体和国家的人们祷告。
Copy the links into your browser or click on the links
在你的浏览器中复制链接，或直接点击链接。
Please read, listen and pray, and if you have been blessed, then share.
请阅读、倾听和祷告，如果你感到被祝福，请分享它。
ENGLISH

WHAT HAS HE DONE?

Today was an unusual day, I am the middle cross that sits on a hill called Calvary.

Let me tell you, what happened to me today

Today was not an ordinary day.
I see many men die, every day, men are put to death on me.

But this was different.
There was a massive crowd, I was carried by a man who was too weak to carry me.

They were cursing this man.

What had he done?

He dropped the cross, someone was called to pick it up.

I was dragged up to calvary.

I heard the curses of the soldiers.

I heard the insults of the pharisees.

What were the pharisees doing here?

They never came

They were taunting this man, they wanted him to come down from the cross.

Even the other criminals were insulting this man, what had he done?

A sign was placed on the top, this is Jesus King of the Jews.

I heard the insults, but I heard things, I had never heard before.

This man prayed for the people insulting him, father forgive them.

Never had I heard words like this, never had I seen a crucifixion, like this.

Women stood by the cross, this man's mother, he had someone take care of her.. what love.
But what I heard next shook me to my foundations.

MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME AND IT IS FINISHED.

Who was this man?

I heard some say, his name was Jesus.

Then one of the other criminals was speaking to Jesus, he came to faith.

The people were amazed and now the ground is shaking.

There is an earthquake, I'm going to fall.
Its dark now, for three hours total darkness.
But it's midday, what's happening?

The soldiers are running, but one stands there and speaks.

Surely, this is the son of God.

The friends of this man come to take him down.
His blood is smeared through my bark.

My friends, I am the cross, I saw Jesus' die, his blood runs all down me.

I am covered with his blood.

My question is this:

What has he done?

He has saved us; he has reconciled us to God. He gave his blood to save us, without blood there is no remission of sin.

Are you covered by the blood of Jesus?
He is real, he brings life.

The answer to the question at the top is this.

He has gained salvation through his death on the cross, we can be reconciled to God, but it takes coming to the foot of the cross, in repentance, faith and with a broken and humble spirit.

The burden of sin is taken away at Calvary.

The Father's justice was satisfied at Calvary, the father's love, mercy and grace were put on full display at Calvary.

Calvary is all about Christ. He gave his life for you.

The Father will draw you to the cross, the holy spirit will convict you of your sin and the precious blood of Jesus will cleanse you from all your sin.


CHINESE/ENGLISH

WHAT HAS HE DONE?
他做了什么？
Today was an unusual day, I am the middle cross that sits on a hill called Calvary.
今天是不寻常的一天，我是一个坐落在加略山上的十字架。
Let me tell you, what happened to me today
让我来告诉你，我今天发生了什么
Today was not an ordinary day.
I see many men die, every day, men are put to death on me.
今天并不是普通的一天。我看到许多人死去，每一天，人们在我上面被处死。
But this was different.
There was a massive crowd, I was carried by a man who was too weak to carry me.
但这次不同，有一大群人，我被一个人背着，他太瘦弱了几乎背不动我。
They were cursing this man.
他们在诅咒这个人。
What had he done?
他做了什么？
He dropped the cross, someone was called to pick it up.
他的十字架掉下来，有人喊着要他重新背上。
I was dragged up to calvary.
我被拖到了加略山
I heard the curses of the soldiers.
我听到士兵们的咒骂
I heard the insults of the pharisees.
我听到法利赛人的羞辱
What were the pharisees doing here?
法利赛人在这里做什么？
They never came
他们从不来
They were taunting this man, they wanted him to come down from the cross.
他们在羞辱这个人。他们要他从十字架上下来。
Even the other criminals were insulting this man, what had he done?
甚至其他罪犯也在羞辱这个人，他做了什么？
A sign was placed on the top, this is Jesus King of the Jews.
顶端写着一个标语，这是犹太人的基督之王。
I heard the insults, but I heard things, I had never heard before.
我听到了那些羞辱，但我听到了一些之前从未听过的事。
This man prayed for the people insulting him, father forgive them.
这个人为那些羞辱他的人祷告，希望父神宽恕他们。
Never had I heard words like this, never had I seen a crucifixion, like this.
我从未听到过类似这样的话，也从未看到过类似这样的刑罚。
Women stood by the cross, this man's mother, he had someone take care of her.. what love.
But what I heard next shook me to my foundations.
女人们站在十字架旁，是这个人的母亲，他让一些人照顾她..这是什么样的爱。但我之后听到的颠覆了我的三观。
MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME AND IT IS FINISHED.
我的神我的神为什么离弃我，此事成了。
Who was this man?
这人是谁?
I heard some say, his name was Jesus.
我听到有人说，他叫耶稣。
Then one of the other criminals was speaking to Jesus, he came to faith.
接着另一个罪犯和耶稣说话，他获得了信心。
The people were amazed and now the ground is shaking.
人们惊奇了，现在全地都震惊了。
There is an earthquake, I'm going to fall.
Its dark now, for three hours total darkness.
But it's midday, what's happening?
没有地震，我即将陷落。天是黑的，三个小时完全黑暗。但这是正午，发生了什么?
The soldiers are running, but one stands there and speaks.
士兵们在奔跑，但有一个人站在那里讲话。
Surely, this is the son of God.
这真的是神的儿子。
The friends of this man come to take him down.
His blood is smeared through my bark.
这个人的朋友上前把他抱下来，他的血沾染在我的外皮上。
My friends, I am the cross, I saw Jesus' die, his blood runs all down me.
朋友们，我是十字架，我看到了耶稣之死，他的血将我打倒。
I am covered with his blood.
我被他的血掩盖。
My question is this:
我的问题是：
What has he done?
他做了什么？
He has saved us; he has reconciled us to God. He gave his blood to save us, without blood there is no remission of sin.
他救了我们；他与神和好。他用他的宝血救了我们，没有血，就没有罪的赦免。
Are you covered by the blood of Jesus?
He is real, he brings life.
耶稣的宝血保护你了吗？他是真实的，他带来生命。
The answer to the question at the top is this.
这就是对顶端标语的回答。
He has gained salvation through his death on the cross, we can be reconciled to God, but it takes coming to the foot of the cross, in repentance, faith and with a broken and humble spirit.
他藉由他在十字架的死赢得了救赎，我们得以与神和好，但这需要来到十字架脚旁，以破碎和谦卑的心忏悔、信任他。
The burden of sin is taken away at Calvary.
罪的重担在加略山被除去。
The Father's justice was satisfied at Calvary, the father's love, mercy and grace were put on full display at Calvary.
父神的公正在加略山得以圆满，父神的爱，怜悯和恩典在加略山得到完全显现。
Calvary is all about Christ. He gave his life for you.
加略山是基督的一切，他为你献出了生命。
The Father will draw you to the cross, the holy spirit will convict you of your sin and the precious blood of Jesus will cleanse you from all your sin.
父神将拣选你来到十字架旁，圣灵因你的罪将你定罪，耶稣的宝血将洁净你所有的罪。


Be blessed by the following links to pray for China /the world and listen the sermons

Soak in scripture

ENGLISH

The Reflections of a Heavenly Citizen

Rev. Arnoud T. Vergunst | Let's Study Philippians

Reformed Congregations of NZ

sermonaudio.com/sermon/225232351583940

Spiritual Warfare

Phil Johnson

The GraceLife Pulpit

sermonaudio.com/sermon/31423161785924

CHINESE

天上的样式与地上的样式（一）：实体与影像 — 希伯来书8：1–5

Patrick Yan | 主日讲道 希伯来书

Toronto Christ Gospel Church

sermonaudio.com/sermon/10422057265701

看哪，你的王！ Behold, Your King!

Our Pastor

Truth Baptist Church

sermonaudio.com/sermon/41122746545216

tall73 said:

So the watercolor ground on yupo makes it a bit more like traditional watercolor paper?

We need to start a portrait thread to discuss technique, and compare notes!

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Thanks. Yes the ground is for priming surfaces like wood or even yupo to receive watercolor. I only tried a diy mixture which was just baking soda mixed with gesso and it made the yupo behave more like traditional cotton paper but not quite as good. The ground they sell in the art supply stores is probably better.

Watchman1 said:

If you believe that, so be it. For me, I have heard these arguments since I first became a believer in 1966. You are just one of the latest in a very long line of cessationists who have come up with the same old chestnuts time after time. You will notice that only a couple of us continuists have bothered to converse with you about the issue. The reason for that is that the hundreds of other continuist members just can't be bothered because they are too busy dealing with more important issues. Since I joined CF in 2005 I have seen posts like yours many times and have spent much of my time giving my views. Nowadays when I see someone new bringing up the old cessationist chestnut, I say to myself: "Here we go again..." So, frankly, I can't be bothered. I know what the Lord has told me about the gift of tongues, and that is good enough for me.

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Your nick was Oscar in the past correct?

Do you ever remember a time, not too long ago, in this forum, where you actually change your mind and agreed with me that when Paul said tongues are for a sign to unbelievers, it could only refer to unbelieving Jews and not any other unbelievers?

If you have now changed your mind again and decided to disagree with me again about that, do have the courage to say so.

I will be fine with that, since we are always free to change our mind as many times as we want.

anetazo said:

The pagan believe when person dies, they sleep in the ground. Sadly, some churches teach the rapture, its false doctrine. Ecclesiastes 12:6. Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl broken or the pitcher be broken at the foundation or the wheel broken at the cistern. 12:7. Then shall the dust return to earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it. Once person dies in the flesh. Their soul goes back to God. No one is laying in the grave. All souls are with God in heaven.

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The word soul is an old English word that means spirit; but in scripture, for some strange reason, soul is used to represent the physical part of man, which can be either dead or alive; if it has breath, it is alive, no breath it is a dead soul. When a soul dies the breath, which came from God, returns to God.

Jesus used sleep for death as a metaphor, meaning the person will awaken when resurrection occurs.

TribulationSigns said:

So you expect the great image to walk around?? Did you believe that God wanted us to believe that it needs to work around to be part of the prophecy? Transport system?? Not impressed. Like I said... speculation.



Sorry, I do NOT believe that Papacy is mentioned in Scripture. I am well aware that MANY, including amillennialists, have "interpreted" the Papl system to be the beast or the harlot, however, I do NOT believe that will stand the test of Scripture.

Beasts are often symbolic of devouring kingdoms in scripture. The heads are symbolic of authorities. The horns are symbolic of its power. The crowns on the horns are symbolic of its rule. I believe that this beast with the wound unto death is illustrative of the Kingdom of Satan. Christ dealt this Kingdom a death blow for believers at the cross, breaking its authority on the earth to deceive the nations and hold them in bondage.

Genesis 3:15

• "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The woman is the kingdom of God on earth (via Israel in the Old Testament, and Via the Church in the New Testament), the Serpent is Satan, ruler of the Kingdom of darkness, the woman's seed is Christ. But near the end of the world, this 'death' wound Christ dealt Satan is healed, and Satan's Kingdom again rises up and goes forth with great authority over the nations. Basically, it's the same New Covenant picture as delineated in Revelation chapter 20, but as a different symbolic picture.

I do not take a Reformist, Historicist or Dispensational-type outlook on Revelation, focusing on physical Nations, Wars, Israel, or the Roman Catholic Church, but on scripture alone as the arbiter and interpreter of Revelation's symbolism. The Roman Catholic Church is very well ruled by those against Christ, but the system most certainly is not the beast. Satan who rules it is, and he can make his kingdom part of any Church system, including the prideful and boastful Protestant Churches.

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You seem to have a problem with symbolic language. The bible only talks about two things, God first, then man appended to Satan; man is required to abandon Satan and be come appended to God; this is a battle primarily fought by angels manipulating men; in the midst of this men strive for salvation.


The Beast is symbolic of men driving institutions; the men change with each generation, while the Beast, as a set of types/anti-types continues to the time of the end.


The Gold head was Nebuchadnezzar and his system of government and religion, and so with silver chest, brass belly and iron legs, a composite of everything man has to offer opposing God, was formed, complete at Christ except for the feet and toes; still not destroyed.


So the Beast is a mental tool that walks around in a persons thinking, Literally, the Beast represents men who walk doing evil, men who rode horses during the days of the Illuminati, today they fly around in Jet planes, and accrue at places like Davao.


It is true, the word Papacy is not in the bible, but the Papacy is clearly identified as the institution called the false prophet and the beast who presumes to change Laws and times; if we call the Beast Rome (which is virtually the western world), then the Papacy is an image of the beast.


Your religion, what ever it is, is determining how you interpret scripture, there are two women as symbols in Revelation; there is Jezebel on the beast's back, a false church; and the woman clothed in the sun or having a golden shine like Moses, and having twelve stars around her head is the Israel of God; not the nation of Israel but the elect of Israel, without whom the covenant could not have been confirmed; the new covenant is a second chance for the lost sheep of Israel, not a lower standard.


I have no idea what a reformist view of Revelation is; I presume you mean protestant view I would be surprised if one exists; Revelation condemns both Protestant and Catholic religions so they keep at a distance, Sunday unites them. There is Preterism and Futurism, both of these have their origin in Jesuit thesis, at the Council of Trent. Both of these hypothesis think to place the Beasts out side of the Papal time frame, but lacking by necessity is definition of the beast ; Futurism identifies what was normal before and after, what became the false doctrines of Preterism and Futurism, Futurism is embraced and modified by Dispensationalism.


In Revelation, which is a description of the great and terrible day of the Lord, everything after chapter three is an anti-type and prophesy there is regurgitation mostly from the OT, with extra emphasis. The main purpose is to prepare us for what is to come; a wrong understanding could mean we will not be prepared.

Spiritual Jew said:

I was not really exposed to Amil at all until I joined a different forum many years ago now. I had already believed that Christ would destroy all His enemies when He returned, but I just didn't put two and two together as to what that would mean when it comes to Revelation 20.

But, the discussions I saw on there made me dig into the scriptures more deeply and I concluded that Amil was true based on the scriptures that I studied. I concluded that those scriptures teach that Christ reigns now and has been since His resurrection, that all believers will be changed and all of the dead in Christ will be raised when Christ returns, that all unbelievers will be destroyed when Christ returns, that there is one general resurrection day/event and that there is only one judgment day.

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Thanks for sharing. I appreciate that.

Spiritual Jew said:

That makes sense because going from dispensationalism to partial preterism is going from one extreme to another.

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With such a big jump, I would question if someone was even really that into premil. Maybe just more of “raised that way” but didn’t buy into too much?

Otherwise, maybe historic premil, which is often preterist when it comes to the OD, but futurist when it comes to revelation?

Just throwing out ideas.

Spiritual Jew said:

It's too bad that they have the wrong understanding of "this generation" just like you.

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Lol, nice burn .

Spiritual Jew said:

In what way? His understanding of "this generation" is the same as theirs, right? He doesn't argue that Jesus returned bodily in 70 AD, does he?

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Yes, to his understanding of generation being the same as theirs. And no, he doesn’t argue the son of man coming on the clouds = the 2nd coming.

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't know if there are any. It's not surprising that they would just assume that the word would mean what it most commonly means without thinking any more about it and considering other definitions of the word beyond that. I wouldn't expect them to consider context or anything like that since they are unbelievers.

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Why would they consider other definitions when it doesn’t have any other meaning besides contemporaneous in the koine Greek? Just about every English Bible translates it as generation, and every other use of genea (koine Greek) in the LXX and NT refers to contemporaries.

That being said, it seems easier to “interpret” the coming of the son of man on the clouds, in the context of the temple destroying, as something other than the 2nd bodily coming, than it would be to change or stretch the definition of the word, in regards sprouls counter to secular scholars and critics.

BobRyan said:

Only to people that think that moving Peter into the area of gentile evangelism "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.

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<ROFL> You're leaving teeth marks all over the scenery mate. But for all that, the misdirection is too obvious.
But let me 'splain this to you engineer-like:

Two things going on there. First, God is showing St Peter that food he's always considered nasty is clean if God declares it so. Godis the one who classified some animals as "unclean" in the first place, and when He later declares them "clean" then it's nonsensical to claim that He didn't, especially when you get told it three times, each subsequent time with an implicit "I said..." attached to it. So Peter goes away wondering what brought all that on.

Then the Gentiles show up at the door, and Peter has an "Oooooh, so that's it!" moment. Got has sent him Gentiles to deal with, and was letting him know that it's OK for him to deal with them.... and maybe, almost unthinkable notion that it was, to sit down and eat with them! And of course, he did both.

You're trying to present these two things, the cleaning of the animals and the cleaning of the Gentiles, as "Exclusive Or" stuff, where if one condition is true the other must be false. If God had meant to clean the animals then He couldn't have cleaned the Gentiles, but if He cleaned the Gentiles He couildn't have cleaned the animals

Two problems with that. One is that the Scripture plainly presents both things happening (although your doctrine requires you to gainsay one of them and act as though it didn't happen), and it also implies the idea of "God can't...", which is always false. What you're actually dealing with is "And" logic, where both conditions are true, both have happened, and God has removed by fiat (He gets to do that; it's how He created the universe) all the restrictions against associating with Gentiles.

You can't just arbitrarily disregard any act of God just because it steps on your doctrine. At best it's logically fallacious as well as really weird, at worst it's a matter of shouting "No!" to an act of God, which is doubleplus ungood.

BobRyan said:

Only to people that suppose that "God so loved the WORLD - not just God so loved the JEWS" concept "is meaningless" as compared to a rat sandwich concept.

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The idea of rat sandwiches must be extraordinarily gross to you, but I don't find it all that offensive. If you'd spent any time around chickens, you'd know they'll eat anything that can't get away, and will peck kernels of undigested grain out of a cow pile or any some such nasty thing as eagerly as not. But they're "clean", aren't they? Fact is, the dietary laws were no more about health then the laws against mixed fabrics were. It was to set Israel apart and prevent them from mixing with unbelievers.

BobRyan said:

For those objective unbiased Bible students

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Bwahahahahahah! Like you, for instance? C'mon mate, you're about as objective and unbiased on this subject as I am about Millwall football.

BobRyan said:

that actually read Acts 10-15 it means that gentile evangelism was "the point" as Peter pointed out repeatedly - and not "rat sandwiches".

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Not XOR, Bob, ANd; your doctrine notwithstanding.

BobRyan said:

It is fine with me if you want to claim that this glaringly obvious detail got past you.

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Fortunately I can admit to the existence of both your "rat sandwiches" (available, of course, at every non-kosher eating place) and the permission to associate with Gentiles (and if my family isn't Gentile there ain't any in the phone book).

BobRyan said:

I have no problem with that.

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Hence the aforementioned scenery chewing. <Laugh>

Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 51:23 reveals the manner in which the Wine of Wrath is to be poured out. 17/71



Eight Questions carefully presented with their Words and Letters numerically comprising the integral reduced value of Eight . 17/107





Q: What people are historically known for utilizing the Body of an Israeli Jew to pave their street? 17/80



Q: Who is it that invented the Printing Press? 8/35



Q: What is the heritage of Tyndall & Wycliffe, whose Translation was evidently used to forge the KJV? 17/80



Q: Which Translation Paved the Way for the English speaking peoples to Convert to the Judaic Christian faith? 1789



Q: From what linguistic branch is the English language? 8/44



Q: What is it, that was taken out of the Hand/Manual of the Jew, and placed in the Hand/Manual of those who desired to Crossover? 26/98



Q (retorical): Before their Conversion to Christianity, what is the name that the Celtic people ascribed unto their Deity? 17/89



Q: What other name did the Biblical Hebrew use when making reference unto the Celtic/Kheldti/Chaldea peoples? 17/89



Micah 4:10 reveals an occasion when Yah will redeem us from the Hand/Manual of our enemy. 17/71



Whosever it is that offers praise (to whomsoever), they are (actually) praising יהוה Yahuah, (regardless to the ignorance of their heart in the matter), for יהוה ‘He Is’ יהוה ‘That which Is’ יהוה ‘That which Was’ and יהוה ‘That which Is to Come’, הוהי (Hawv’aii) ‘Existence’ itself, nevertheless, he only Promised to Reveal his Salvation unto those who order their conversation appropriately. 62/305



Yeshua [the Salvation of Yah] declared, we shall not See הו (Ho) ‘Him’ שנה (shanah) ‘Again’ שנה ‘the Second time’ til we say, הושנה (Hosannah) ‘Blessed is the One’ who comes in the Name of יהוה, as did the Babes which ushered him into Yerushalem, saying Blessed is the Kingdom of our Father David Who Comes in the Name of יהוה Yahuah. 62/251



I am יהוה (Yahuah) ‘That which Exists, and there is Nothing, Nor Anyone else besides me, neither is there an אלהים (Alohym) ‘Sovereign Author’ besides me, nor אלהים (Alohym) ‘Sovereign Authority’ besides mine. [ref., Yeshayahuw (Isaiah) 45:5]



I made the Earth of myself, and Adam from it…the One who created Heaven, and made the Earth of himself, he did not Create it from Nothing, for No One or No Reason, he created it to be inhabited, I am יהוה (Yahuah) ‘That which Exists, and there is Nothing else. [Yeshayahu (Issiah) 45:12 & 18]



Thus there was Nothing else for Yahuah to create Heaven and Earth from, nor anyone else for him to create it for, let alone inhabit it. 26/107



The Sin of a Jew is engraved with an iron pen, because they did not heed the warning as it pertains to transcribing a record of his speech, neither did they teach this to their children or grandchildren, neither did they remember, nor perpetuate the memory of the Rock and Consuming Fire who Raptured the children of Ishrael, when he Carried them upon the Wings of a Great Eagle, and brought them unto his Heavenly Abode, a Great Mountain Burning with Fire. where he spoke to them from the midst of the Fire, and then called Moshé up into his Abode for forty days and forty nights. 107/



It was from the vicinity of 19.5 Egypt that he duly instructed the children of Ishrael to Go from One side of Heaven (antipode) to the other side, and inquire if anyone has ever שמוע (Samoa) ‘Heard’ of such a thing, for if & when they decide to שמע ‘Listen’ & שמע ‘Comply’ with his Voice, and Go עבר antipodal unto 19.5 Hawv’aii, they shall discover that there is a people of שמע ‘Samoa’ in the Polynesian islands, who have indeed שמוע ‘Heard’ his Voice, and reverently Glorify the one who resides in the Fire of the islands, 98/404



הוי Hawva’ii is the Land Shadowing with Wings, which is עבר Antipode the rivers of Ethiopia (Africa)…. 17/80 [ref., Yeshayahu 18:1



….whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the Host of Yahuah, the Mount of Zion. [ref., Yeshayahu 18:7]



Psalms 17:8, 36:7, 57:1, 63:7 are all references to the Shadow of Yah’s Wings, worthy of reading. 17:71

Larnievc said:

The vast majority of Creationist do not have a background in biology beyond maybe high school.

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Sadly that is correct.

Putin knows the number of cards he has to play is running low, so this is nothing more than another attempt to cause the West to flinch.

It's not going to work.