God-ordained Genocide

[Hammster]

Genocide:
noun

1. the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land, for Yahweh your God stiffened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to give him over into your hand, as he is today. And Yahweh said to me, ‘See, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to possess, so that you may fully possess his land.’ “Then Sihon with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz. But Yahweh our God gave him over to us, and we struck him down with his sons and all his people. So we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction the men, women, and little ones of every city. We left no survivor remaining.
— Deuteronomy 2:30-34

One objection I hear ad nauseum to the Reformed Theology view of election/predestination is that God wants to save everyone. So I get this quote quite often:

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some consider slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
— 2 Peter 3:9

So how do my Arminian/synergism-leaning friends reconcile the multiple examples of God-ordained genocide in the OT with your view of God loving everyone and wanting them all saved?

 

[bling]

First off, look at the NIV translation :

Deut. 2: 26 From the Desert of Kedemoth I sent messengers to Sihon king of Heshbon offering peace and saying, 27 “Let us pass through your country. We will stay on the main road; we will not turn aside to the right or to the left. 28 Sell us food to eat and water to drink for their price in silver. Only let us pass through on foot— 29 as the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir, and the Moabites, who live in Ar, did for us—until we cross the Jordan into the land the Lord our God is giving us.” 30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the Lord your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.

31 The Lord said to me, “See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his country over to you. Now begin to conquer and possess his land.”

32 When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed[c] them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. 36 From Aroer on the rim of the Arnon Gorge, and from the town in the gorge, even as far as Gilead, not one town was too strong for us. The Lord our God gave us all of them. 37 But in accordance with the command of the Lord our God, you did not encroach on any of the land of the Ammonites, neither the land along the course of the Jabbok nor that around the towns in the hills.

We really do not know how all this went down exactly. We have nothing specific like: A Jewish soldier broke into a Heshbon woman’s house and ran a sword through her and her three small children,

In fact, we have this: Josh. 24: 8 “‘I brought you to the land of the Amorites who lived east of the Jordan. They fought against you, but I gave them into your hands. I destroyed them from before you, and you took possession of their land. 9 When Balak son of Zippor, the king of Moab, prepared to fight against Israel, he sent for Balaam son of Beor to put a curse on you. 10 But I would not listen to Balaam, so he blessed you again and again, and I delivered you out of his hand.

11 “‘Then you crossed the Jordan and came to Jericho. The citizens of Jericho fought against you, as did also the Amorites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hittites, Girgashites, Hivites and Jebusites, but I gave them into your hands. 12 I sent the hornet ahead of you, which drove them out before you—also the two Amorite kings. You did not do it with your own sword and bow. 13 So I gave you a land on which you did not toil and cities you did not build; and you live in them and eat from vineyards and olive groves that you did not plant.’

God destroyed them, gave them into the hands of the Jews, drove them out before them, sent hornets ahead of them and the Jews did not do it with their swords or bows, so did they just stare them down?

God repeatedly especially early on talks about, “driving them out before you” and uses that idea three time more often than kill everyone.

Look at Jerico: The Jews get all dressed up and for six days just walk around the city, those in Jerico (men, women and child) would all be up on the wall laughing at this parade, by the seventh day, so how many were left in the city to be killed?

Would God have protected the minds and hearts of those Jewish soldiers?

Is there an advantage to our participating with God, and who does most (if not all) of the real work?

God does not murder people, but can and does stop providing life on earth to people at any time.

Death is not bad in and of itself, but the way bad people quit doing bad stuff and good people get to go home.

Yes the Jewish soldier had the responsibility to destroy all the people, but could it have been done like with Abraham; Abraham is said to have actually offered up Isaac, yet he did not physically, literally murder Isaac. Did these woman and children die before them?

 

[HTacianas]

Genocide:
noun

1. the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land, for Yahweh your God stiffened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to give him over into your hand, as he is today. And Yahweh said to me, ‘See, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to possess, so that you may fully possess his land.’ “Then Sihon with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz. But Yahweh our God gave him over to us, and we struck him down with his sons and all his people. So we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction the men, women, and little ones of every city. We left no survivor remaining.
— Deuteronomy 2:30-34

One objection I hear ad nauseum to the Reformed Theology view of election/predestination is that God wants to save everyone. So I get this quote quite often:

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some consider slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
— 2 Peter 3:9

So how do my Arminian/synergism-leaning friends reconcile the multiple examples of God-ordained genocide in the OT with your view of God loving everyone and wanting them all saved?

Reconciling the two is actually quite easy. One of the biggest words in the bible is if. It appears most often in statements like "If you obey...", "If you do...". God's promises to everyone are conditioned on if. All those genocides in the bible were acts of war committed against those who did not obey, and those who did not do. And in those cases it wasn't a matter of genocide but a matter of war as war was fought at the time. God did not establish the rules of warfare, men did. It's ironic that the Christianization of warfare in the Western world was what civilized it, yet that civilization of warfare is forgotten when people look to the old testament. And God is not willing that any should perish but there are an awful lot who do because they won't obey. God sent Jonah to the Ninevites specifically so they would not perish. It was the wickedness of the Ninevites that caused God to send Jonah and He sent Jonah because He was not willing that they would perish. God's reasons are spelled out in the last verse of Jonah. They chose to obey and were spared.

 

[Grip Docility]

Genocide:
noun

1. the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land, for Yahweh your God stiffened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to give him over into your hand, as he is today. And Yahweh said to me, ‘See, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to possess, so that you may fully possess his land.’ “Then Sihon with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz. But Yahweh our God gave him over to us, and we struck him down with his sons and all his people. So we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction the men, women, and little ones of every city. We left no survivor remaining.
— Deuteronomy 2:30-34

One objection I hear ad nauseum to the Reformed Theology view of election/predestination is that God wants to save everyone. So I get this quote quite often:

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some consider slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
— 2 Peter 3:9

So how do my Arminian/synergism-leaning friends reconcile the multiple examples of God-ordained genocide in the OT with your view of God loving everyone and wanting them all saved?

Hammster... would you like to address the Athanasian Creed (Reform's accepted Creed) at it's last paragraph?

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;

That emboldened portion is in reference to 1 Peter 3:18-20, which is missing parts, due to degradation of available fragments. Despite not having the complete passage, it survived two canonizations of scripture. Wouldn't it be safe to say that you left a bit out... besides the assumption that God flippantly commits "Genocide"?

 

[Grip Docility]

Genocide:
noun

1. the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land, for Yahweh your God stiffened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to give him over into your hand, as he is today. And Yahweh said to me, ‘See, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to possess, so that you may fully possess his land.’ “Then Sihon with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz. But Yahweh our God gave him over to us, and we struck him down with his sons and all his people. So we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction the men, women, and little ones of every city. We left no survivor remaining.
— Deuteronomy 2:30-34

One objection I hear ad nauseum to the Reformed Theology view of election/predestination is that God wants to save everyone. So I get this quote quite often:

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some consider slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
— 2 Peter 3:9

So how do my Arminian/synergism-leaning friends reconcile the multiple examples of God-ordained genocide in the OT with your view of God loving everyone and wanting them all saved?

Also, Being the Horses Patoot that I am... I can 1 up your "Ad nauseum" objection (Amateurs).

Would you agree that Colossians 1:15-23 is a very important passage about the true Identity of Jesus, the Son of God, God the Son?

 

[Hammster]

First off, look at the NIV translation :

Deut. 2: 26 From the Desert of Kedemoth I sent messengers to Sihon king of Heshbon offering peace and saying, 27 “Let us pass through your country. We will stay on the main road; we will not turn aside to the right or to the left. 28 Sell us food to eat and water to drink for their price in silver. Only let us pass through on foot— 29 as the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir, and the Moabites, who live in Ar, did for us—until we cross the Jordan into the land the Lord our God is giving us.” 30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the Lord your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.

31 The Lord said to me, “See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his country over to you. Now begin to conquer and possess his land.”

32 When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed[c] them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. 36 From Aroer on the rim of the Arnon Gorge, and from the town in the gorge, even as far as Gilead, not one town was too strong for us. The Lord our God gave us all of them. 37 But in accordance with the command of the Lord our God, you did not encroach on any of the land of the Ammonites, neither the land along the course of the Jabbok nor that around the towns in the hills.

We really do not know how all this went down exactly. We have nothing specific like: A Jewish soldier broke into a Heshbon woman’s house and ran a sword through her and her three small children,

In fact, we have this: Josh. 24: 8 “‘I brought you to the land of the Amorites who lived east of the Jordan. They fought against you, but I gave them into your hands. I destroyed them from before you, and you took possession of their land. 9 When Balak son of Zippor, the king of Moab, prepared to fight against Israel, he sent for Balaam son of Beor to put a curse on you. 10 But I would not listen to Balaam, so he blessed you again and again, and I delivered you out of his hand.

11 “‘Then you crossed the Jordan and came to Jericho. The citizens of Jericho fought against you, as did also the Amorites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hittites, Girgashites, Hivites and Jebusites, but I gave them into your hands. 12 I sent the hornet ahead of you, which drove them out before you—also the two Amorite kings. You did not do it with your own sword and bow. 13 So I gave you a land on which you did not toil and cities you did not build; and you live in them and eat from vineyards and olive groves that you did not plant.’

God destroyed them, gave them into the hands of the Jews, drove them out before them, sent hornets ahead of them and the Jews did not do it with their swords or bows, so did they just stare them down?

God repeatedly especially early on talks about, “driving them out before you” and uses that idea three time more often than kill everyone.

Look at Jerico: The Jews get all dressed up and for six days just walk around the city, those in Jerico (men, women and child) would all be up on the wall laughing at this parade, by the seventh day, so how many were left in the city to be killed?

Would God have protected the minds and hearts of those Jewish soldiers?

Is there an advantage to our participating with God, and who does most (if not all) of the real work?

God does not murder people, but can and does stop providing life on earth to people at any time.

Death is not bad in and of itself, but the way bad people quit doing bad stuff and good people get to go home.

Yes the Jewish soldier had the responsibility to destroy all the people, but could it have been done like with Abraham; Abraham is said to have actually offered up Isaac, yet he did not physically, literally murder Isaac. Did these woman and children die before them?

We left no survivors

I think that is unambiguous.

 

[Hammster]

Reconciling the two is actually quite easy. One of the biggest words in the bible is if. It appears most often in statements like "If you obey...", "If you do...". God's promises to everyone are conditioned on if. All those genocides in the bible were acts of war committed against those who did not obey, and those who did not do. And in those cases it wasn't a matter of genocide but a matter of war as war was fought at the time. God did not establish the rules of warfare, men did. It's ironic that the Christianization of warfare in the Western world was what civilized it, yet that civilization of warfare is forgotten when people look to the old testament. And God is not willing that any should perish but there are an awful lot who do because they won't obey. God sent Jonah to the Ninevites specifically so they would not perish. It was the wickedness of the Ninevites that caused God to send Jonah and He sent Jonah because He was not willing that they would perish. God's reasons are spelled out in the last verse of Jonah. They chose to obey and were spared.

The genocide in question was because the king’s heart was hardened. The people suffered because of it. So I don’t know where “if” comes into play here.

 

[Hammster]

Hammster... would you like to address the Athanasian Creed (Reform's accepted Creed) at it's last paragraph?

I didn’t reference any creed.

That emboldened portion is in reference to 1 Peter 3:18-20, which is missing parts, due to degradation of available fragments. Despite not having the complete passage, it survived two canonizations of scripture. Wouldn't it be safe to say that you left a bit out... besides the assumption that God flippantly commits "Genocide"?

No, I didn’t leave anything out. I quoted what’s so often quoted to me when the subject of election comes up.

 

[Hammster]

Also, Being the Horses Patoot that I am... I can 1 up your "Ad nauseum" objection (Amateurs).

Would you agree that Colossians 1:15-23 is a very important passage about the true Identity of Jesus, the Son of God, God the Son?

That’s not the topic.

 

[Grip Docility]

I didn’t reference any creed.

No, I didn’t leave anything out. I quoted what’s so often quoted to me when the subject of election comes up.

It's relevant to the OP. Why did Christ descend into "Hell"? The Church of Reform accepts the Creed and thus this falls into your realm of explaination.

 

[Grip Docility]

That’s not the topic.

You placed it square in the middle of the OP. If you didn't want it discussed, perhaps it shouldn't be in the Opening post, where hawk eyed (Individual Free Moral Autonomous Agency) Theologians, like myself... might see an opening.

What is the Topic? That the same God that said "Love your Enemies" is Duplicitous?

 

[Hammster]

It's relevant to the OP. Why did Christ descend into "Hell"? The Church of Reform accepts the Creed and thus this falls into your realm of explaination.

I don’t see the relevance to my OP.

 

[Hammster]

You placed it square in the middle of the OP. If you didn't want it discussed, perhaps it shouldn't be in the Opening post, where hawk eyed (Individual Free Moral Autonomous Agency) Theologians, like myself... might see an opening.

What is the Topic? That the same God that said "Love your Enemies" is Duplicitous?

I am not seeing how this relates to the question in the OP.

 

[Grip Docility]

I am not seeing how this relates to the question in the OP.

Your OP denies specifically that God died for all. It then tries to associate Genocide unto Eternal Conscious Torment as an act of God that we can identify His Character by. You are challenging that God is "Omnibenevolent".

In light of "Genocide", which is a very interesting topic of today... this OP could be discussed from many angles.

Are you really not seeing how it relates, or are you being difficult, to guard your OP point? I am playing the part of a squirrel figuring out how to navigate this maze.

 

[Grip Docility]

Genocide:

When the flesh is destroyed, where does the essence of that Being go, if they are "Damned" or "Reprobate"?
This is relevant, because you have brought the very Character of God to a point where you have unknowingly placed Him on Trial.

Hammster... would you like to address the Athanasian Creed (Reform's accepted Creed) at it's last paragraph?

He suffered for our salvation;
He descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;

That emboldened portion is in reference to 1 Peter 3:18-20, which is missing parts, due to degradation of available fragments. Despite not having the complete passage, it survived two canonizations of scripture. Wouldn't it be safe to say that you left a bit out... besides the assumption that God flippantly commits "Genocide"?

One objection I hear ad nauseum to the Reformed Theology view of election/predestination is that God wants to save everyone. So I get this quote quite often:

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some consider slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
— 2 Peter 3:9

So how do my Arminian/synergism-leaning friends reconcile the multiple examples of God-ordained genocide in the OT with your view of God loving everyone and wanting them all saved?

Did I misunderstand that you brought up scripture and then attempted to re-assert John Calvin's Doctrine of Predestination
?

Also, Being the Horses Patoot that I am... I can 1 up your "Ad nauseum" objection (Amateurs).

Would you agree that Colossians 1:15-23 is a very important passage about the true Identity of Jesus, the Son of God, God the Son?

My perception of (Individual Free Moral Autonomous Agency) goes FAR beyond that of the factions you cited. I was attempting to show you how an oddball like myself, reconciles these matters.

 

[bling]

I think that is unambiguous.

Yes, they were probably already dead.

 

[Grip Docility]

Genocide:
noun

1. the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land, for Yahweh your God stiffened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to give him over into your hand, as he is today. And Yahweh said to me, ‘See, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to possess, so that you may fully possess his land.’ “Then Sihon with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz. But Yahweh our God gave him over to us, and we struck him down with his sons and all his people. So we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction the men, women, and little ones of every city. We left no survivor remaining.
— Deuteronomy 2:30-34

One objection I hear ad nauseum to the Reformed Theology view of election/predestination is that God wants to save everyone. So I get this quote quite often:

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some consider slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
— 2 Peter 3:9

So how do my Arminian/synergism-leaning friends reconcile the multiple examples of God-ordained genocide in the OT with your view of God loving everyone and wanting them all saved?

Colossians 1 will place the Doctrine of "Limited Atonement" into Checkmate... EVERY time, when interpreted correctly. No, debating the doctrine of Limited Atonement, does not make a Christian a "Universalist". Despite your every objection that I am WRONG to insinuate that God blessed mankind with (Individual Free Moral Autonomous Agency)... it is my relevant perspective, thus if you place this discussion in the wild, it isn't valid to "invalidate" the other individuals perspective as "Irrelevant", because for discussion's sake, I have to understand and give respect to the fact that "Calvin's doctrine of Predestination, conformed to the Cannons of Dort" is your perspective.

My post number 15, which re-asserts my questions and clarifies why I generated them in direct response to the OP, should hold water, in your eyes as something you, the Opening Post creator, who is always adamant to me, when I generate OP's, that the burden of FULLY proofing your implication is on the Opening Post Generator. I have evidence if need be shown.

 

[HTacianas]

The genocide in question was because the king’s heart was hardened. The people suffered because of it. So I don’t know where “if” comes into play here.

Go back to the group of Jews known as the Essenes. Jesus and John the Baptist were both Essenes. The Essenes had a saying that went All things are best ascribed to God. No matter what. Early on in the old testament you can see the beginnings of that. If a thing happened it was best ascribed to God. Read the two accounts of the census of David. In one account Satan caused David to carry out the census. In the other account God Himself moved David to carry out the census.

Satan moves David to carry out the census:

1Ch 21:1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

God moves David to carry out the census:

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

The difference between the two is the perspective of the writer. So when we see things like God hardening someone's heart we really don't know if it was in fact God who did it, only that his heart was hardened.

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes, they were probably already dead.

Um... it doesn't invalidate the question. Christ descended into Hell. It matters. He brought Captives Captive. 1 Peter 3 literally says that Christ Ministered (MADE PROCLAIMATION) to IMPRISONED (Captive) Spirits.

If it is irrelevant, than why does scripture open the can of worms, via the STAR of all scripture?

 

[Grip Docility]

Go back to the group of Jews known as the Essenes. Jesus and John the Baptist were both Essenes. The Essenes had a saying that went All things are best ascribed to God. No matter what. Early on in the old testament you can see the beginnings of that. If a thing happened it was best ascribed to God. Read the two accounts of the census of David. In one account Satan caused David to carry out the census. In the other account God Himself moved David to carry out the census.

Satan moves David to carry out the census:

1Ch 21:1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

God moves David to carry out the census:

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

The difference between the two is the perspective of the writer. So when we see things like God hardening someone's heart we really don't know if it was in fact God who did it, only that his heart was hardened.

Job 1 and 2 actually answers the question! Satan LIES to God to obtain the authority to do awful things, then God grants Satan the authority to do them. Mind you, literally in Job 2, God declares Satan's legal accusations against Job, UNJUST.