Follow the Law? Ok, then but WHICH laws in the Torah?

[lollykh]

Hi, I'm investigating whether or not what the Messianics believe is true.

I have a question. For Messianics and those who keep the Law, following the Torah is very important. However, on 119 Ministries' website, David Wilber's website, Lion and Lamb Ministeries' website and Passion For Truth's website, there is no list saying which of the 613 commandments we need to follow and which ones we don't need to follow.

Obviously we don't keep the ceremonial laws because Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice. Plus I understand some laws are for farmers, women etc. But if we are supposed to follow the laws applicable to us, how do we know which ones to keep?!

I think it's absolute bonkers.

Thanks for reading.

 

[HARK!]

Hi, I'm investigating whether or not what the Messianics believe is true.

I have a question. For Messianics and those who keep the Law, following the Torah is very important. However, on 119 Ministries' website, David Wilber's website, Lion and Lamb Ministeries' website and Passion For Truth's website, there is no list saying which of the 613 commandments we need to follow and which ones we don't need to follow.

Our Messiah didn't provide a list either.

(CLV) Mt 19:16
And lo! one coming to Him said, "Teacher, what good shall I be doing that I should be having life eonian?"

(CLV) Mt 19:17
Yet He said to him, "Why are you asking Me concerning good? One is good. Yet if you are wanting to be entering into life, keep the precepts."

We might have to study YHWH's word to find out.

I forgot who came up with that count for 613; but there are numerous other counts. For some reason 613 stuck; but that number is debatable.

We follow the ones that apply to us; but you already understood this; as you understand that the directions that were given exclusively to women don't apply to men.

Obviously we don't keep the ceremonial laws because Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice.

What is a ceremonial law? YHWH spoke of no such law.

Here is what David said:

(CLV) Ps 119:160
The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian.

if we are supposed to follow the laws applicable to us, how do we know which ones to keep?!

There are so many laws in America, between Federal, State, and local; that no one has been able to count them all.

Do you obey the secular law; or do you lead a life of crime?

As you already understand, not all of YHWH's instructions apply to every person individually. So it would be fair to assume that fewer than 613 apply to any individual. Now if you ask most Americans if they are law abiding citizens; they will say yes; that they obey more laws than have been accurately counted. If you ask a devout Jew, "Do you fulfill the Torah;" he will most likely reply, "of course!" Yet you ask a Christian the same question; and he will most likely say that he is a law abiding citizen who can't keep even fewer than 613 of YHWH's instructions. Some say that they only keep 10.

I think it's absolute bonkers.

What do you think is "bonkers?"

 

[Bob S]

Laws that deal with morality issues are forever. Laws that deal with rituals like the ones He gave Israel were for a time. That time ended at Calvary where Jesus ended the old covenant and ratified the new covenant with His own blood. The ritual commands in the new covenant are communion and marriage. The ritual commands that the Israelites had to deal with were many and included the weekly Sabbath, feast days, new moons, blending cloth with two different fibers, cutting sideburns and more.

 

[HARK!]

Laws that deal with morality issues are forever. Laws that deal with rituals like the ones He gave Israel were for a time. That time ended at Calvary where Jesus ended the old covenant and ratified the new covenant with His own blood. The ritual commands in the new covenant are communion and marriage. The ritual commands that the Israelites had to deal with were many and included the weekly Sabbath, feast days, new moons, blending cloth with two different fibers, cutting sideburns and more.

Yahshua said no such thing. If he had spoken against the word of the most high; then he could not have been the Messiah.

 

[Bob S]

Yahshua said no such thing. If he had spoken against the word of the most high; then he could not have been the Messiah.

Sorry Hark, Jesus is the Most High. Jeremiah prophesied that a new and better covenant would be coming and it came at the Cross. The veil of the Temple was rent. Jews no longer have to go through a priest to commune with our Savior. The new covenant includes all mankind. Communion is for all to partake. Most Jews and Messianics are in the dark for some reason.

The change in the covenants was one more step in God's Plan of Salvation instituted before the foundation of the Earth. Jesus fulfilled Torah (brought it to an end).

 

[Gary K]

Sorry Hark, Jesus is the Most High. Jeremiah prophesied that a new and better covenant would be coming and it came at the Cross. The veil of the Temple was rent. Jews no longer have to go through a priest to commune with our Savior. The new covenant includes all mankind. Communion is for all to partake. Most Jews and Messianics are in the dark for some reason.

The change in the covenants was one more step in God's Plan of Salvation instituted before the foundation of the Earth. Jesus fulfilled Torah (brought it to an end).

You ave some serious problems with your beliefs as it is in direct conflict with scriptutr.

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all ).
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

The Bible directly tells us twice that God doesn't make any difference between races of people, yet your beliefs rest upon the idea that He does.

 

[honey badger]

Hi, I'm investigating whether or not what the Messianics believe is true.

I have a question. For Messianics and those who keep the Law, following the Torah is very important. However, on 119 Ministries' website, David Wilber's website, Lion and Lamb Ministeries' website and Passion For Truth's website, there is no list saying which of the 613 commandments we need to follow and which ones we don't need to follow.

Obviously we don't keep the ceremonial laws because Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice. Plus I understand some laws are for farmers, women etc. But if we are supposed to follow the laws applicable to us, how do we know which ones to keep?!

I think it's absolute bonkers.

Thanks for reading.

to answer your question with a question, which if you keep the law the answer will come ... if you be patient ...

when was the law first spoken ?

 

[HARK!]

Sorry Hark, Jesus is the Most High.

(CLV) Jn 17:3
Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ.

How about we address the topic of the thread now?

 

[HARK!]

The change in the covenants was one more step in God's Plan of Salvation instituted before the foundation of the Earth. Jesus fulfilled Torah (brought it to an end).

Did you miss this verse; or are you suggesting that David got it wrong?


(CLV) Ps 119:160
The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian (forever).

 

[Bob S]

You ave some serious problems with your beliefs as it is in direct conflict with scriptutr.





The Bible directly tells us twice that God doesn't make any difference between races of people, yet your beliefs rest upon the idea that He does.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. To whom was Moses speaking?

If I have some problems with Scripture instead of chastising why don't you list the problems and set me straight?

 

[HARK!]

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. To whom was Moses speaking?

That's easy. He was speaking the the assembly (church) before YHWH. You are aware that a large portion of that assembly, who took the vow to obey YHWH's word, were of the nations (Gentiles); no?

(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (eternal) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

 

[Gary K]

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. To whom was Moses speaking?

If I have some problems with Scripture instead of chastising why don't you list the problems and set me straight?

I'll be happy to show you the problems.

In Moses' writings we're told the following.

Exo_12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exo_12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exo_22:21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

That's enough to demonstrate the principle at stake here, Notice that some of this instruction was given before Sinai. The Israelites were to consider the stranger no different than they themselves. Which means of course that God has never made a difference between Jews and Gentiles. He is no respecter of persons. All races and nations were to be treated equally by the Israelites in spiritual matters when they lived among the Israelites.

 

[Soyeong]

Hi, I'm investigating whether or not what the Messianics believe is true.

I have a question. For Messianics and those who keep the Law, following the Torah is very important. However, on 119 Ministries' website, David Wilber's website, Lion and Lamb Ministeries' website and Passion For Truth's website, there is no list saying which of the 613 commandments we need to follow and which ones we don't need to follow.

There is a set of books on my wishlists that examines each of the 613 laws and how they are applicable to today, though it is $300 for the set.

Obviously we don't keep the ceremonial laws because Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice.

The Bible never lists which laws are ceremonial and never even refers to that as being a subcategory of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which laws they considered to be ceremonial, then there would be a wide variety of lists, and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible has referring to something that they just created.

Plus I understand some laws are for farmers, women etc. But if we are supposed to follow the laws applicable to us, how do we know which ones to keep?!

I think it's absolute bonkers.

Thanks for reading.

It seems fairly straightforward that if a law has conditions like being in the land or being a woman and someone meets those conditions, then they should keep those laws, but if they do not meet those conditions, then they should not keep those laws. God's law was given to a nation and can only be obeyed in fullness by a nation.

The issue of whether followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow is independent of the issue of what I think should be obeyed. Someone being a hypocrite does not necessarily mean that they are wrong, so if someone said that we should obey what God has commanded while living in complete disobedience to what He has commanded, then that would not mean that they are wrong that we should obey what God has commanded. Likewise, if I were not applying God's law in the manner that I am supposed to be, then that would just mean that I would need to repent and return to obedience, not that I am wrong that followers of God should follow what God has commanded.

 

[rstrats]

Obviously we don't keep the ceremonial laws because Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice.

Not so sure about that - at least with regard to the Feast of Tabernacles. Zachariah 16 prophesizes the required observance of the Feast of Tabernacles during the end times when the Messiah returns to earth. Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense if it was abolished at the cross - which I think is a common belief among many Christians.

 

[Bob S]

I'll be happy to show you the problems.

In Moses' writings we're told the following.








That's enough to demonstrate the principle at stake here, Notice that some of this instruction was given before Sinai. The Israelites were to consider the stranger no different than they themselves. Which means of course that God has never made a difference between Jews and Gentiles. He is no respecter of persons. All races and nations were to be treated equally by the Israelites in spiritual matters when they lived among the Israelites.

Think what you want, but the real truth is that Israel was His chosen. "God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people," Deut 7:6

 

[Gary K]

Think what you want, but the real truth is that Israel was His chosen. "God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people," Deut 7:6

Exo_12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exo_12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exo_23:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

There is more if you want to see them.

A couple of those scriptures come before Sinai. God is no respecter of persons. He has never made a difference between Jews and Gentiles. Keep on believing your position if you like but I don't think that attitude will ever lead you to truth.

 

[HARK!]

Think what you want, but the real truth is that Israel was His chosen. "God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people," Deut 7:6

Which Yashar El?

Would that be Jacob? Obviously not, because this verse speaks of people.

Would it be the land named Yashar El? Obviously not, again because this verse speaks of people.

However this verse does not mention Yashar El either.

Let's back back up a few verses for context.

Here we go:

(CLV) Dt 6:4
Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.

So is YHWH speaking solely to the the blood progeny of Jacab, the Sons of Yashar El?



When he speaks to the Sons of Yashar El; he calls them the Sons of Yashar El.

Let's back up a little further, for greater context.

(CLV) Ex 12:17
You will observe the instruction, for on this very day I will bring forth your hosts from the land of Egypt. And you will observe this day throughout your generations as an eonian (eternal) statute.

(CLV) Ex 12:18
In the first month ion the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until day twenty one › of the month, in the evening.

(CLV) Ex 12:19
For seven days yeast shall not be found in your houses, for anyone eating leavened bread, that soul will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, both among the sojourners ( גר Ger, AKA Nations, Gentiles) and among the natives of the land.

As I have already mentioned, many Ger, (Nations, Gentiles) took the vow to enter covenant with YHWH. They too became part of the Congregation of Yashar El.

Ephesians 2

11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations (Gentiles) in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Not anymore!

12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

Not anymore!

13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ."

Citizens of Yashar El.

 

[HARK!]

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

 

[DamianWarS]

There is a set of books on my wishlists that examines each of the 613 laws and how they are applicable to today, though it is $300 for the set.


The Bible never lists which laws are ceremonial and never even refers to that as being a subcategory of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which laws they considered to be ceremonial, then there would be a wide variety of lists, and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible has referring to something that they just created.


It seems fairly straightforward that if a law has conditions like being in the land or being a woman and someone meets those conditions, then they should keep those laws, but if they do not meet those conditions, then they should not keep those laws. God's law was given to a nation and can only be obeyed in fullness by a nation.

The issue of whether followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow is independent of the issue of what I think should be obeyed. Someone being a hypocrite does not necessarily mean that they are wrong, so if someone said that we should obey what God has commanded while living in complete disobedience to what He has commanded, then that would not mean that they are wrong that we should obey what God has commanded. Likewise, if I were not applying God's law in the manner that I am supposed to be, then that would just mean that I would need to repent and return to obedience, not that I am wrong that followers of God should follow what God has commanded.

that works until it doesn't work

Lev 19:19
’Keep my decrees. “’Do not mate different kinds of animals. “’Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. “’Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

these are not laws "of the land" or laws that can only be performed by the complete nation of Israel. No priest is required or no special land is needed. We all can practice these laws today, albeit not all are in the business of animal husbandry or planting crops and how that relates to partaking of their products may be a matter of opinion, but we all wear clothing. so cotton/polyester blends are forbidden. Should we abstain from wearing these blended fabrics so that we keep the law?

 

[Yekcidmij]

Hi, I'm investigating whether or not what the Messianics believe is true.

I have a question. For Messianics and those who keep the Law, following the Torah is very important. However, on 119 Ministries' website, David Wilber's website, Lion and Lamb Ministeries' website and Passion For Truth's website, there is no list saying which of the 613 commandments we need to follow and which ones we don't need to follow.

Obviously we don't keep the ceremonial laws because Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice. Plus I understand some laws are for farmers, women etc. But if we are supposed to follow the laws applicable to us, how do we know which ones to keep?!

I think it's absolute bonkers.

Thanks for reading.

I'm not messianic, but here is a stab at it.

(1) Like everything else.....It depends. I don't think the laws were originally statutory in nature, but rather were something more like common law or case law. For many (most?) laws you can derive principles which you should still do because God made us and creation to function in certain orderly ways. In most cases it will depend on the specific rule in question and it's underlying principles (if they can be ascertained). Easy ones are things like, "don't murder", "don't steal", etc... But some can be more difficult like prohibitions on wearing clothing mixed of linen and wool or building parapets on roofs.

(2) Even "ceremonial laws" contain things we don't want to miss, even if we don't go to a physical temple to offer a sacrifice. Just because a particular ceremonial law isn't required (or may be impossible) for us to perform doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware and understand it's purpose and nature.

I think it's best to see the Torah not as a list of requirements to follow, boxes to check, or laundry list of things to do which if we fail (and we all have and will) we're written off, lose salvation, or otherwise in some other fashion, fail. Rather, God's commands - his Torah - is wisdom to living life. Simply, if you want to live a full and purposeful life, you do what he says. Not that this will somehow obtain eternal life or a place in the resurrection, especially since we all have and will fall short, but that it provides guidance as to how we've been created to function in God's world.

Lev 18:5 "So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them"