God's Punishment/Judgment - EO View

cradleGO · May 7, 2024

The toughest part of belief in my view is how God will mete out punishment/ how we will be judged. I am not asking about myself but about "how it works". On the one hand, I know that God is a loving God and wants the best for us. And Christ has clearly laid out what is most important to Him: Loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God with all our mind, heart and soul.

But earthly life is interaction with others who have no concept of this, or choose to ignore it. I am older and have seen a lot. In the past 15 years (but not exclusively) I have seen a great deal, or experienced a great deal, of bad behavior of the "un-neighborly" kind. Some have been punished or faced the natural consequences for their deeds. For example, a business that had mistreated its customers goes out of business. (Perhaps 3 times?) But there are many who apparently go on along unaffected by 'earthly punishment', and will have to fully face their iniquity at the fearsome Judgment Seat of Christ. (Not that 'going out of business' absolves the owners from their bad behavior.) There are many of them, even in my small sample size.

I find it hard to believe that so many will be cast in the Fire, or whatever we believe. Seems like there should be a means to atone for their bad deeds, even when they are mortally dead. But I don't know that mechanism. What does Orthodoxy say about this?

(If this isn't the correct forum, please point me to the correct one. Thank you.)

ArmyMatt · May 7, 2024

if there is some atoning after their death, it’s by God’s mercy and by the prayers of the Church. so we leave it to Him.

Lukaris · May 7, 2024

The Gospel says the good will ultimately be in the heavenly kingdom ( John 5:22-30). A Christian ( I include Catholic & Protestant in my understanding) who has been truly faithful (John 14:15-18, Philippians 2:12 etc.) is saved & while we do not know about non Christians ( Romans 2:6-16), it seems evident some will be saved but only God knows ( Deuteronomy 29:29).

cradleGO · May 7, 2024

These answers don't address the shear numbers of bad people. I'm not a nut, and there is no reason to think I attract bad behavior, and there are clearly good people I encounter. But there are many more bad people than I thought there could be when I was younger. Perhaps I didn't see them.

The uptake so far is that the good will get their reward. And God's mercy may be available. The Orthodox believe that the dead get a foretaste of their final judgment. Let's not debate that now, please. Just accept that for now. And for this topic, let's accept treatment of our neighbor as the only behavior to be judged.

So, those who have done well with this get some foretaste of a reward, while those falling short, get a foretaste of their punishment. Then what happens? It is easy to dismiss the very bad people - knowing nothing else, they are doomed. But what about the rest? There is a range of badness, presumably. Bad enough to be categorized, but not so bad as to be 'very bad'. I think an Orthodox precept is that we don't make a distinction between sins (don't recognize mortal sin versus venial sin), which would imply there is no weighing of 'relative badness". But that seems too stark.
Either there are no bad people treating only a few people badly, or the expectation is a zero defects mentality. God would have to dispense a LOT of mercy or a LOT of people will be 'disappointed'.

I'll add this. Jesus said that there are many mansions and that He goes ahead to prepare them for us. I have no idea of the value of a mansion/abode for 'spiritual entities without needs' that are the dead humans, but in my eyes I suspect that the righteous get the bigger, nicer mansions, while the lesser get the lesser abodes - at the appropriate time. The 'many' of many mansions to me implies both number and size/quality, otherwise could have just said 'mansions' which is plural. I have no idea how this works.

The Catholics have the reputation of thinking in legal terms, and we Orthodox tend to view matters as mysteries, but we have so much presented to us as to Christ's nature and the Godhead, but about us - seems too sketchy. As I said, based on my deficient knowledge, it seems that God will have to dispense a LOT of mercy or there won't be very many mansions.

ArmyMatt · May 7, 2024

cradleGO said:
As I said, based on my deficient knowledge, it seems that God will have to dispense a LOT of mercy or there won't be very many mansions.

maybe, we don’t know how that will work out.

The Liturgist · Thursday at 6:11 AM

ArmyMatt said:
maybe, we don’t know how that will work out.

Indeed, also, God is infinitely merciful. There is among some Orthodox fathers a belief that even the Outer Darkness is a mercy, since people who are aligned against God experience the consuming fire of His love as wrath, and being in the immediate presence of God in the World to Come would be an intolerable torture. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware also liked to quote CS Lewis, who wrote that the gates of Hell are locked on the inside. In other words, the people in Hell want to be there because they have no control over the sinful passions. Thus, according to this school of thought, the soteriological work of the Orthodox Church is to teach us to control the sinful passions so that we are prepared to spend eternity with God, and as a result of this, at the last judgement we pray that God will find us worthy to enter into the life of the world to come. But of course, it is ultimately his decision; the only people we know for sure are saved are those persons glorified as saints, and it is also the case that the majority of saints, we don’t even know about, since it is much harder for the church to keep track of your average married layman than it is to keep track of monastics, bishops and martyrs, with martyrs and confessors in particular it is easy to say that they have been glorified. But that is of course the red martyrdom. Monasticism is commonly called the white martyrdom, and also the Orthodox Fathers talk of Holy Matrimony as a form of martyrdom, of sacrificing oneself for the needs of one’s spouse.

Unfortunately this idea has gone out of style in recent times, hence the high divorce rate, but Orthodoxy fights back against that, for example, with the approval of the ecclesiastical tribunal required in some jurisdictions like ROCOR to obtain a canonical divorce (and they will assign penances to one or both spouses, depending on who is culpable for the failure of the marriage), and a canonical divorce is required to be married a second time, and our church has a limit of three marriages, since it is hard to think of a scenario where any reasonable person would have reason to be married more than three times.

Lukaris · Thursday at 8:00 AM

I have read St. John of Damascus quote John 5:24-30 without elaboration, St. Nil ( Sorsky) quote Matthew 25:31-46 without elaboration, a short statement of St. Maximos the Confessor in the Philokalia re the judgment of good & evil dispositions. In the Antiochian Church ( I presume other Orthodox also) John 5:24-30 is read at the funeral service. This is where I get most of my understanding from.

ArmyMatt · Thursday at 11:02 AM

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, also, God is infinitely merciful. There is among some Orthodox fathers a belief that even the Outer Darkness is a mercy, since people who are aligned against God experience the consuming fire of His love as wrath, and being in the immediate presence of God in the World to Come would be an intolerable torture. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware also liked to quote CS Lewis, who wrote that the gates of Hell are locked on the inside. In other words, the people in Hell want to be there because they have no control over the sinful passions. Thus, according to this school of thought, the soteriological work of the Orthodox Church is to teach us to control the sinful passions so that we are prepared to spend eternity with God, and as a result of this, at the last judgement we pray that God will find us worthy to enter into the life of the world to come. But of course, it is ultimately his decision; the only people we know for sure are saved are those persons glorified as saints, and it is also the case that the majority of saints, we don’t even know about, since it is much harder for the church to keep track of your average married layman than it is to keep track of monastics, bishops and martyrs, with martyrs and confessors in particular it is easy to say that they have been glorified. But that is of course the red martyrdom. Monasticism is commonly called the white martyrdom, and also the Orthodox Fathers talk of Holy Matrimony as a form of martyrdom, of sacrificing oneself for the needs of one’s spouse.

Unfortunately this idea has gone out of style in recent times, hence the high divorce rate, but Orthodoxy fights back against that, for example, with the approval of the ecclesiastical tribunal required in some jurisdictions like ROCOR to obtain a canonical divorce (and they will assign penances to one or both spouses, depending on who is culpable for the failure of the marriage), and a canonical divorce is required to be married a second time, and our church has a limit of three marriages, since it is hard to think of a scenario where any reasonable person would have reason to be married more than three times.

yep

cradleGO · Thursday at 6:43 PM

Lukaris said:
I have read St. John of Damascus quote John 5:24-30 without elaboration, St. Nil ( Sorsky) quote Matthew 25:31-46 without elaboration, a short statement of St. Maximos the Confessor in the Philokalia re the judgment of good & evil dispositions. In the Antiochian Church ( I presume other Orthodox also) John 5:24-30 is read at the funeral service. This is where I get most of my understanding from.

(I'm getting way out over my skis here. Not trying to define anything, but this is where I am.) John 5:24-30 is closer to my issue than Matthew 25:31-46 . It might be unlikely, but a bad person could in fact help those in need. Al Capone for example had soup kitchens and had make work projects for the needy, etc.
I cannot and will not try to parse John 5:24-30, because 1. I cannot and 2. it doesn't answer my point. From what I've seen of this world, as I said above, there won't be many mansions in God's realm.

Let me broach it this way. I've heard that the Jews say that God can forgive any offense against God, but offenses against your fellow man is on you. Back to my concern: The person who pummeled the Israelite will be punished by God unless he atones to that Israelite for what he did, and makes restitution with the Samaritan for the care he provided. From a fairness viewpoint. In my experience there is a wealth of people pummeling others, through word or deed, in this world. The thief on the cross is in Paradise, but that doesn't change the harm done to a person he stole from.
Finally, I heard an Orthodox priest say it doesn't matter how rough life is for a person or how mistreated he was as to fitness for Heaven. That doesn't make any sense to me. The person stolen from, or the one abused, should have a leg up on the rung to Heaven. That's where I am.

Lukaris · Thursday at 7:12 PM

cradleGO said:
(I'm getting way out over my skis here. Not trying to define anything, but this is where I am.) John 5:24-30 is closer to my issue than Matthew 25:31-46 . It might be unlikely, but a bad person could in fact help those in need. Al Capone for example had soup kitchens and had make work projects for the needy, etc.
I cannot and will not try to parse John 5:24-30, because 1. I cannot and 2. it doesn't answer my point. From what I've seen of this world, as I said above, there won't be many mansions in God's realm.

Let me broach it this way. I've heard that the Jews say that God can forgive any offense against God, but offenses against your fellow man is on you. Back to my concern: The person who pummeled the Israelite will be punished by God unless he atones to that Israelite for what he did, and makes restitution with the Samaritan for the care he provided. From a fairness viewpoint. In my experience there is a wealth of people pummeling others, through word or deed, in this world. The thief on the cross is in Paradise, but that doesn't change the harm done to a person he stole from.
Finally, I heard an Orthodox priest say it doesn't matter how rough life is for a person or how mistreated he was as to fitness for Heaven. That doesn't make any sense to me. The person stolen from, or the one abused, should have a leg up on the rung to Heaven. That's where I am.

I believe Ezekiel 18:1-32 could be helpful to you since the prophet shows the benefit of doing good. He also shows how we can undo our good works and the fairness of the judgment of God. Ezekiel 18:4-9 is a major focus here.

As far as the poor & oppressed, I believe the Beatitudes have them included within the Sermon on the Mount. Also in Psalms this seems evident in various places. For ex Psalm 10:1-18 ( western number).

I believe by the very commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:12 etc.) we should have faith in the Lord’s mercy especially for the most vulnerable.

cradleGO · Friday at 2:15 PM

Lukaris said:
I believe Ezekiel 18:1-32 could be helpful to you since the prophet shows the benefit of doing good. He also shows how we can undo our good works and the fairness of the judgment of God. Ezekiel 18:4-9 is a major focus here.

As far as the poor & oppressed, I believe the Beatitudes have them included within the Sermon on the Mount. Also in Psalms this seems evident in various places. For ex Psalm 10:1-18 ( western number).

I believe by the very commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:12 etc.) we should have faith in the Lord’s mercy especially for the most vulnerable.

I clearly see how the good are rewarded and the evil punished, and how to avoid being wicked. I don't see a means to proactively work to avoid severe punishment. One can ask for God's mercy, certainly. And one can always make amends/atone for bad deeds with the one you hurt, if possible. Short of those things, I don't see a way to reduce the punishment, perhaps there isn't any.

Let me illustrate the bad I've seen and why there may not be so many mansions in Heaven - not as many as one might expect. These happened earlier than 'the last 15 years' I mentioned in the OP. And while none of these has happened again, plenty of bad has been demonstrated to me, personally or otherwise, since then.

1. was poisoned by a waitress - bad food poisoning
2. was poisoned by a waiter - bad food poisoning
3. was poisoned by a waiter - bad food poisoning
4. served soup over-salted
5. served menu item over-salted
6. served 'steak' that was almost totally fat and gristle
7. name taken, never seated
8. name taken, never seated
9. eggs under-cooked and not remedied even after complaint and re-serving
10. eggs under-cooked and not remedied even after complaint and re-serving

That is just food service. (And not all that occurred in that setting.) With the exception of 6 and 7, those were all within the previous 15 years to 30 years ago, roughly. Items 4, 6 and 10 happened at restaurants that subsequently closed - nothing of my doing.

In several instances, not only the wait staff but a cook had to be cooperative with the harm done. There is no possibility that any of these could make amends to me. So, they will ask for God's mercy, and take their chances. Some may do good deeds with others and severely regret what they did, but....?

Wildflower3 · Friday at 3:31 PM

cradleGO said:
I clearly see how the good are rewarded and the evil punished, and how to avoid being wicked. I don't see a means to proactively work to avoid severe punishment. One can ask for God's mercy, certainly. And one can always make amends/atone for bad deeds with the one you hurt, if possible. Short of those things, I don't see a way to reduce the punishment, perhaps there isn't any.

Let me illustrate the bad I've seen and why there may not be so many mansions in Heaven - not as many as one might expect. These happened earlier than 'the last 15 years' I mentioned in the OP. And while none of these has happened again, plenty of bad has been demonstrated to me, personally or otherwise, since then.

1. was poisoned by a waitress - bad food poisoning
2. was poisoned by a waiter - bad food poisoning
3. was poisoned by a waiter - bad food poisoning
4. served soup over-salted
5. served menu item over-salted
6. served 'steak' that was almost totally fat and gristle
7. name taken, never seated
8. name taken, never seated
9. eggs under-cooked and not remedied even after complaint and re-serving
10. eggs under-cooked and not remedied even after complaint and re-serving

That is just food service. (And not all that occurred in that setting.) With the exception of 6 and 7, those were all within the previous 15 years to 30 years ago, roughly. Items 4, 6 and 10 happened at restaurants that subsequently closed - nothing of my doing.

In several instances, not only the wait staff but a cook had to be cooperative with the harm done. There is no possibility that any of these could make amends to me. So, they will ask for God's mercy, and take their chances. Some may do good deeds with others and severely regret what they did, but....?

Then the burden in on us, as Orthodox Christians, to pray that God does not punish them despite them not making restitution.

Even the Lord did this on the cross, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."

Other examples of prayer for this:

"O Lord, at the day of judgment, do not hold these sins against them on my account."

"Relieve my enemies of the malice they bear towards me, that they become worthy of Thy mercy."

"Lord, by my enemies prayers, save me!"

"Lord, do not hold this sin against them." - Protomartyr Stephen, Acts 7:60

I'm confused about your restaurant list there. We Orthodox should constantly fight the very "remembrance of wrongs" and instead pray the Lord's complete mercy on enemies and wrongdoers whenever the evil one throws the memory at us again and again. And pray for them to repent and right their wrongs.

I'm not saying this is easy at all. I struggle and fall with this multiple times a day every day. It's a massive struggle. We need to make a constant effort, no matter how feeble or despite what our feelings are. Just do it the best we can where we are at now and ask God to help.

I don't think it's benefiting you to ponder too much on the questions you posed or waste your energy on them. How much or how little will God punish a sinner? How many mansions does the Lord have in His kingdom, not many? We can't possibly begin to even grasp these things or even know what they truly mean.

I think, if you want peace about these questions, then focus instead on not remembering wrongs and pray for those who did you wrong. Also, almsgiving in their name if they're reposed. Maybe even doing a good deed in their name if they're alive and asking God to credit it to their account. We can even do this in general for people we don't even know.

The Liturgist · Friday at 7:34 PM

cradleGO said:
I clearly see how the good are rewarded and the evil punished, and how to avoid being wicked. I don't see a means to proactively work to avoid severe punishment. One can ask for God's mercy, certainly. And one can always make amends/atone for bad deeds with the one you hurt, if possible. Short of those things, I don't see a way to reduce the punishment, perhaps there isn't any.

Let me illustrate the bad I've seen and why there may not be so many mansions in Heaven - not as many as one might expect. These happened earlier than 'the last 15 years' I mentioned in the OP. And while none of these has happened again, plenty of bad has been demonstrated to me, personally or otherwise, since then.

1. was poisoned by a waitress - bad food poisoning
2. was poisoned by a waiter - bad food poisoning
3. was poisoned by a waiter - bad food poisoning
4. served soup over-salted
5. served menu item over-salted
6. served 'steak' that was almost totally fat and gristle
7. name taken, never seated
8. name taken, never seated
9. eggs under-cooked and not remedied even after complaint and re-serving
10. eggs under-cooked and not remedied even after complaint and re-serving

That is just food service. (And not all that occurred in that setting.) With the exception of 6 and 7, those were all within the previous 15 years to 30 years ago, roughly. Items 4, 6 and 10 happened at restaurants that subsequently closed - nothing of my doing.

In several instances, not only the wait staff but a cook had to be cooperative with the harm done. There is no possibility that any of these could make amends to me. So, they will ask for God's mercy, and take their chances. Some may do good deeds with others and severely regret what they did, but....?

Which restaurants were these at out of curiosity? Because I have to say you’ve had some unpleasant experiences there, and I would prefer to avoid those restaurants myself.

While I have had a few instances of food poisoning, only one of them was deliberate and involved e.coli bacteria-tainted milk, which made me sick and put my mother in the hospital, so my father retained a lawyer and we successfully sued them. But I forgive everyone involved. Had my mother died, forgiveness would be more challenging, but thanks be to God, He answered my prayers, and my mother was discharged from the ER the same day. The food poisoning made her acutely sick where she needed oxygen, but the ER doctor was able to stabilize her.

Thanks be to God!

cradleGO · Friday at 9:14 PM

Wildflower3 said:
I don't think it's benefiting you to ponder too much on the questions you posed

Fair point, but I just don't understand how God will judge. I know I should worry about myself, but I have a brain, and God has revealed so much, I don't understand why we cannot know more about this. God will forgive them? Fine. But if He punishes them...? I have no concept of that. These were bad things they did, but by themselves don't amount to eternal damnation. So, what happens to them?
On the one hand, forgiveness. I'm fine with that.
On the other had, punishment. What is in the arsenal? Cannot be erased only. Must be something short of that.

Lukaris · Friday at 10:40 PM

I trust God will be merciful and just ( Romans 9:15). So if I accidentally run down an unfortunate person with my car, hit & run, I will be damned. The victim will be largely forgiven. If the victim is also guilty of grievous sin, like me, & unrepentant then that person will be damned like me. Like if that person embezzled money from a nursing home or something like that ( again, if the person was unrepentant of their grievous sin not as opposed to something petty like having stolen an apple from a grocery store). We can ponder so far & just leave it to God while hoping for mercy for ourselves & our neighbor ( see Matthew 7:1-12).

Wildflower3 · 2024-05-18T10:29:10-0500

cradleGO said:
Fair point, but I just don't understand how God will judge. I know I should worry about myself, but I have a brain, and God has revealed so much, I don't understand why we cannot

cradleGO said:
Fair point, but I just don't understand how God will judge. I know I should worry about myself, but I have a brain, and God has revealed so much, I don't understand why we cannot know more about this. God will forgive them? Fine. But if He punishes them...? I have no concept of that. These were bad things they did, but by themselves don't amount to eternal damnation. So, what happens to them?
On the one hand, forgiveness. I'm fine with that.
On the other had, punishment. What is in the arsenal? Cannot be erased only. Must be something short of that.

I don't understand either. I wish hell didn't exist. Through the intercessions of the Theotokos may the Lord have mercy on us all.

Wildflower3 · 2024-05-18T12:22:34-0500

@cradleGO

This article doesn't exactly address your specific questions, but I personally have found solace in reading as it gives me hope for the fate of sinners in that there is much holy prayer being done for us all.

The Salvation of the World According to St. Silouan

www.johnsanidopoulos.com

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