God-ordained Genocide

[Hammster]

There were some Kings and enemy soldiers killed directly by the Jewish soldiers, but any woman and children run through with a sword?

The prima facia reading of the text would lead us to believe that women and children were killed. And not just in this account. There are other incidents in scripture.

 

[Halbhh]

There were some Kings and enemy soldiers killed directly by the Jewish soldiers, but any woman and children run through with a sword?

Yes, in more than one city, the instruction from God was to devote all to the sword, 100% of the inhabitants. (and it helps to know also even the gold and silver were to be thrown into bonfires for some of those cities -- because it illustrates the goal (stated in Deuteronomy 12:29-31: that this profoundly evil culture musn't be allowed to influence Israel and so continue later in time)

That total killing of all inhabitants people would usually characterize with words like 'genocide'.

But here in this thread, the title is "God Ordained"..... and, we know that God undoes death. And by His Grace will generally save all who are willing to repent and/or turn to Christ (as we read about in 1rst Peter 3:18-20, 4:6 as a prime example)

So, I been trying to point out the miswording in the OP. -- "God Ordained Genocide" -- it's not the best phrasing for a very specific reason.

I.e. -- if you hear that someone was murdered (or slaughtered, etc.), and then you find out they are still alive, then the report that claimed or suggested they were dead is incomplete or misworded or mistaken in a key, basic way.

So, "God Ordained Genocide" is then a misnomer. It's a wording that in effect suggests to the lost that God cannot exist also.

If God makes the 'dead' alive again....then He didn't really do what people think of as 'genocide' -- but instead its something else, more like this:

Transportation.

(including for to various places, such as for instance for the guilty of crimes: Penal Transportation: Penal transportation - Wikipedia)

 

[Hammster]

Yes, in more than one city, the instruction from God was to devote all to the sword, 100% of the inhabitants. (and it helps to know also even the gold and silver were to be thrown into bonfires for some of those cities -- because it illustrates the goal (stated in Deuteronomy 12:29-31: that this profoundly evil culture musn't be allowed to influence Israel and so continue later in time)

That total killing of all inhabitants people would usually characterize with words like 'genocide'.

But here in this thread, the title is "God Ordained"..... and, we know that God undoes death. And by His Grace will generally save all who are willing to repent and/or turn to Christ (as we read about in 1rst Peter 3:18-20, 4:6 as a prime example)

So, I been trying to point out the miswording in the OP. -- "God Ordained Genocide" -- it's not the best phrasing for a very specific reason.

I.e. -- if you hear that someone was murdered (or slaughtered, etc.), and then you find out they are still alive, then the report that claimed or suggested they were dead is incomplete or misworded or mistaken in a key, basic way.

So, "God Ordained Genocide" is then a misnomer. It's a wording that in effect suggests to the lost that God cannot exist also.

If God makes the 'dead' alive again....then He didn't really do what people think of as 'genocide' -- but instead its something else, more like this:

Transportation.

(including for to various places, such as for instance for the guilty of crimes: Penal Transportation: Penal transportation - Wikipedia)

Please post on topic.

 

[Halbhh]

Please post on topic.

But I've been responding to your main central question, which you summarized this way:

So how do my Arminian/synergism-leaning friends reconcile the multiple examples of God-ordained genocide in the OT with your view of God loving everyone and wanting them all saved?

All my posts have been on precisely that, the 2 main aspects of it:

A) What God has done with those people slaughtered in those cities.

B) And in view of A), is it really a "genocide" -- answer: no.

So, my posts have been entirely and precisely on the topic of your OP.

Why won't you just read them and see?

 

[Hammster]

But I've been responding to your main central question, which you summarized this way:



All my posts have been on precisely that, the 2 main aspects of it:

A) What God has done with those people slaughtered in those cities.

B) And in view of A), is it really a "genocide" -- answer: no.

So, my posts have been entirely and precisely on the topic of your OP.

Why won't you just read them and see?

Neither of those are the questions.

 

[Halbhh]

Neither of those are the questions.

Ok, let me summarize all I said very briefly:

To the OP question:

So how do my Arminian/synergism-leaning friends reconcile the multiple examples of God-ordained genocide in the OT with your view of God loving everyone and wanting them all saved?

My answers (to summarize what I've been writing above) are:

A) As I laid out in details in previous posts, the people killed in those cities aren't actually dead, as God also ordained they will go to a place where they are not dead but are "imprisoned spirits" (for the guilty) and other places it seems for the innocent.... And so they are alive!

and

B) therefore it's not ultimately in the end (or "not yet" as I wrote) a "God Ordained Genocide" but instead more like "Transportation" to new places.

And I also mentioned (I think) how some can be redeemed by the gospel even!

Thus fully and entirely responding to all aspects of your main OP question. See?

 

[Grip Docility]

Please post on topic.

How does the "Synergist" reconcile their position that God died for all people and God Loves all people with atrocities within the old testament that are charged to God?

There are scriptural matters that the Synergist recognizes.

Spoiler

1) In Eden, God grants Adam and Eve (Dominion of all that moves on the earth)... Dominion denotes Sovereignty, per the very definition of Dominion. This means, by the Bible that God is "Sovereign", but He Created His Creations with (Free Individual Moral Autonomous Agency)

2) Satan, per Ezekiel 28, was created Perfect, but has Iniquity rise up within himself. This is also proof that God grants (Free Individual Moral Autonomous Agency) to His creations.

3) In Revelation 12:5-7 we clearly see that Jesus ascends, before Satan is cast down from Heaven.

4) In the book of Job, we see in Job 1 that Satan has a place of agency in the presence of God and Accuses Job to the face of God, through false accusation, which we then find out in Job 2, that Satan's false accusations are rebuffed by God... yet God, is acknowledging Satan's Agency, per Satan's position, which clearly has him capable of ACCUSING a person before God, for the Right to Destroy that person. Job doesn't know that Satan has done the dirt, but still recons God as without evil, in the matter.. and scripture recognizes this very specifically. We, the reader know that Job is being persecuted by Satan. Job the participant, does not know this.

5) In the fall account of Adam and Eve... the entire matter is written long after it happened and is accounted from God to Moses. God reveals that Satan is a crafty, deceitful Snake of an Angel through the narrative, yet Adam and Eve are like children, naïve and used to the Honesty of God.

6) Colossians 1 shows the Supremacy of Christ. Per the very words of Colossians 1, Jesus reconciles ALL Things to Himself, by His Blood. If the verbiage of Colossians 1 is tampered with, the Supremacy of Christ becomes Tampered with.

7) God instructs Humanity to LOVE THEIR ENEMIES... which means that God LOVES, Even His Enemies, or else He would be a Hypocrite.

8) The passage that you assigned the word "Ad Nauseum" to remains relevant

9) There is no passage of scripture that says God is Hate... While there is passage of scripture that says that "if we hate, we are not of God, because God is Love.

All this reconciled, we see that Satan usurped the Sovereignty that God had Granted to Adam and Eve over themselves and all the Earth . From there on out, we see Satan's agency attempting to Mar the Character of God, just like the corrupted Jews (There were MANY GOOD ONES that followed Jesus) that did it to the VERY FACE of Y-WH when He walked this earth (John 14:8-9 and Matthew 23)

Now, because we have evidence in scripture that charges Satan's evil to God, in comparison of two passages (The Census)... We can then know without a doubt, that the Violence of God, was actually the Evil of Satan. If this were not so, God would not have stated to go and learn what this means, that He desired MERCY, instead of Sacrifice.

God doesn't contradict Himself. God IS the TRUE Law... and is the only Being in ALL of Creation that is Good by it.

To then say.... systematically built towards through reference to actual scripture... The Destroyer (AKA Satan) brought Violence into the world as a usurped Positional Middle Man, up until his Agency was Lost (At Golgotha). If this were a lie, we wouldn't have scripture that specifically states that Satan is the lowercase god of this world, nor could Satan have offered all the Kingdoms of the Earth to Jesus, if he didn't have genuine sovereignty over them. To be a god, denotes a form of Dominion (Sovereignty).

This now brings it back to the Matter of The answer to your interesting OP. If Genocide was done, it was Satan bringing violence, as Jesus called Satan a MURDERER, through the Pharisees, under the very authority of being the lowercase g-od of creation. A person is either Job, and believes that God is Blameless, or they are Job's Wife and ascribe Evil to God.

 

[Grip Docility]

Well, since few people have really addressed the OP, I think trying to get someone to do so is okay.

I feel your pain. I actually answered your OP directly, from my humble perspective. I gave my theological work up and personal understandings of the matter in spoiler format, to not gunk up your OP and I followed through the systematic logic of my nut job, A.D.D. brain until I arrived at a succinct answer that is my mere opinion. You are welcome to take it as a bubble to pop, or systematically dismantle, if you feel like doing such a thing. I've got thick skin, so... do with it as you will.

If you tell me to stay on topic... I won't loose my mind, but I promise you that I will post the image of Mrs. Potato Head giving Mr. Potato Head his angry eyes.

But, seriously, I really did try to rip open my brain and give you my logic in the matter, to answer your question, though I genuinely recognize that the Determinist and the Synergist speak two different languages, so it's kind of like you speak English and to you I'm speaking Italian.

I genially hope my post above helps in some light understand the other side of Theology.

 

[Hammster]

Ok, let me summarize all I said very briefly:

To the OP question:


My answers (to summarize what I've been writing above) are:

A) As I laid out in details in previous posts, the people killed in those cities aren't actually dead, as God also ordained they will go to a place where they are not dead but are "imprisoned spirits" (for the guilty) and other places it seems for the innocent.... And so they are alive!

If they aren’t actually dead, then Jesus didn’t actually die, and His sacrifice is useless.

and

B) therefore it's not ultimately in the end (or "not yet" as I wrote) a "God Ordained Genocide" but instead more like "Transportation" to new places.

They died in manner that everyone on earth (save maybe you) talks about death.

And I also mentioned (I think) how some can be redeemed by the gospel even!

No.

Thus fully and entirely responding to all aspects of your main OP question. See?

Okay. You answered.

 

[Hammster]

How does the "Synergist" reconcile their position that God died for all people and God Loves all people with atrocities within the old testament that are charged to God?

There are scriptural matters that the Synergist recognizes.

Spoiler

1) In Eden, God grants Adam and Eve (Dominion of all that moves on the earth)... Dominion denotes Sovereignty, per the very definition of Dominion. This means, by the Bible that God is "Sovereign", but He Created His Creations with (Free Individual Moral Autonomous Agency)

2) Satan, per Ezekiel 28, was created Perfect, but has Iniquity rise up within himself. This is also proof that God grants (Free Individual Moral Autonomous Agency) to His creations.

3) In Revelation 12:5-7 we clearly see that Jesus ascends, before Satan is cast down from Heaven.

4) In the book of Job, we see in Job 1 that Satan has a place of agency in the presence of God and Accuses Job to the face of God, through false accusation, which we then find out in Job 2, that Satan's false accusations are rebuffed by God... yet God, is acknowledging Satan's Agency, per Satan's position, which clearly has him capable of ACCUSING a person before God, for the Right to Destroy that person. Job doesn't know that Satan has done the dirt, but still recons God as without evil, in the matter.. and scripture recognizes this very specifically. We, the reader know that Job is being persecuted by Satan. Job the participant, does not know this.

5) In the fall account of Adam and Eve... the entire matter is written long after it happened and is accounted from God to Moses. God reveals that Satan is a crafty, deceitful Snake of an Angel through the narrative, yet Adam and Eve are like children, naïve and used to the Honesty of God.

6) Colossians 1 shows the Supremacy of Christ. Per the very words of Colossians 1, Jesus reconciles ALL Things to Himself, by His Blood. If the verbiage of Colossians 1 is tampered with, the Supremacy of Christ becomes Tampered with.

7) God instructs Humanity to LOVE THEIR ENEMIES... which means that God LOVES, Even His Enemies, or else He would be a Hypocrite.

8) The passage that you assigned the word "Ad Nauseum" to remains relevant

9) There is no passage of scripture that says God is Hate... While there is passage of scripture that says that "if we hate, we are not of God, because God is Love.

All this reconciled, we see that Satan usurped the Sovereignty that God had Granted to Adam and Eve over themselves and all the Earth . From there on out, we see Satan's agency attempting to Mar the Character of God, just like the corrupted Jews (There were MANY GOOD ONES that followed Jesus) that did it to the VERY FACE of Y-WH when He walked this earth (John 14:8-9 and Matthew 23)

Now, because we have evidence in scripture that charges Satan's evil to God, in comparison of two passages (The Census)... We can then know without a doubt, that the Violence of God, was actually the Evil of Satan. If this were not so, God would not have stated to go and learn what this means, that He desired MERCY, instead of Sacrifice.

God doesn't contradict Himself. God IS the TRUE Law... and is the only Being in ALL of Creation that is Good by it.

To then say.... systematically built towards through reference to actual scripture... The Destroyer (AKA Satan) brought Violence into the world as a usurped Positional Middle Man, up until his Agency was Lost (At Golgotha). If this were a lie, we wouldn't have scripture that specifically states that Satan is the lowercase god of this world, nor could Satan have offered all the Kingdoms of the Earth to Jesus, if he didn't have genuine sovereignty over them. To be a god, denotes a form of Dominion (Sovereignty).

This now brings it back to the Matter of The answer to your interesting OP. If Genocide was done, it was Satan bringing violence, as Jesus called Satan a MURDERER, through the Pharisees, under the very authority of being the lowercase g-od of creation. A person is either Job, and believes that God is Blameless, or they are Job's Wife and ascribe Evil to God.

Your assumption is that it’s evil for God to order the death of anyone. That isn’t true.

 

[Grip Docility]

Your assumption is that it’s evil for God to order the death of anyone. That isn’t true.

Correction: In your opinion, it isn't true.

God NEVER intended Death to enter his Creation. Elsewise, the entire Don't partake in My Knowledge of Good and Evil Command, wouldn't have been Given. Satan rebelled. He was "Cursed" with the power of Death (Heb 2:14). He usurped DOMINION (Sovereignty)

Look at the difference between the "Ministry of Death .. (symbolized by the Decalogue) ... and the ministry of Life (JESUS).

Per the Decalogue, the Woman should have been stoned. Jesus, the ONLY PERFECT BEING THERE, shows MERCY. What changed? Jesus was now Boots on Ground, and didn't have to abide by Satan's usurped Agency. But... that would mean God can Humble Himself to Grant Autonomy to Creation! Which we see here:

Hebrews 2:6 What is man that You remember him,​

or the son of man that You care for him?​

7 You made him lower than the angels​

for a short time;​

You crowned him with glory and honor[a]​

8 and subjected everything under his feet​

​

Philippians 2:5 Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus,​

6 who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be used for His own advantage.[a]
7 Instead He emptied Himself
by assuming the form of a slave,
taking on the likeness of men.
And when He had come as a man
in His external form,
8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.​

​

 

[bling]

The prima facia reading of the text would lead us to believe that women and children were killed. And not just in this account. There are other incidents in scripture.

If the Lord kills all the inhabitance of a country with some decease or with hornets, we would not call it genocide. So, if God uses Jewish soldiers to kill all the inhabitance left who did not run off in a city, how is that a genocide?

God ran off all the people who feared the Lord (good people to that extent), so the rest were destroyed.

It is hard for us to imagine young men killing women and children, but if they actually did run a sword through an innocent child (which we do not know ever happened) the Lord could certainly blot that memory out of the young soldier's mind.

This whole “war” is extremely unique and almost bazaar, since no Jewish soldier is said to have died, except 36 allowed to die by God's wishes, when one Jew rebelliously disobeyed a direct command of God.

What would it be like to go to war, knowing you could not be killed? Knowing you have God’s full protection? Knowing you are just an instrument of God’s judgment?

The way it was supposed to work was still contingent on the Jews following God’s commands:

Duet. 11: 22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him— 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you.

An angel, fire and hornets will go before them:

Ex. 23: 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. …27 “I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way.

Duet. 9:3 But be assured today that the Lord your God is the one who goes across ahead of you like a devouring fire. He will destroy them; he will subdue them before you.

Unless the Lord comes, we will all die, so why get upset with God stopping to provide life to some at any time and by any means?

Everything done throughout the Old Testament is in preparation for Christ’s coming, so we do not need to nitpick one thing taken out of that context.

 

[bling]

Yes, in more than one city, the instruction from God was to devote all to the sword, 100% of the inhabitants. (and it helps to know also even the gold and silver were to be thrown into bonfires for some of those cities -- because it illustrates the goal (stated in Deuteronomy 12:29-31: that this profoundly evil culture musn't be allowed to influence Israel and so continue later in time)

That total killing of all inhabitants people would usually characterize with words like 'genocide'.

But here in this thread, the title is "God Ordained"..... and, we know that God undoes death. And by His Grace will generally save all who are willing to repent and/or turn to Christ (as we read about in 1rst Peter 3:18-20, 4:6 as a prime example)

So, I been trying to point out the miswording in the OP. -- "God Ordained Genocide" -- it's not the best phrasing for a very specific reason.

I.e. -- if you hear that someone was murdered (or slaughtered, etc.), and then you find out they are still alive, then the report that claimed or suggested they were dead is incomplete or misworded or mistaken in a key, basic way.

So, "God Ordained Genocide" is then a misnomer. It's a wording that in effect suggests to the lost that God cannot exist also.

If God makes the 'dead' alive again....then He didn't really do what people think of as 'genocide' -- but instead its something else, more like this:

Transportation.

(including for to various places, such as for instance for the guilty of crimes: Penal Transportation: Penal transportation - Wikipedia)

If the Lord kills all the inhabitance of a country with some decease or with hornets, we would not call it genocide. So, if God uses Jewish soldiers to kill all the inhabitance left who did not run off in a city, how is that a genocide?

God ran off all the people who feared the Lord (good to that extent), so the rest were destroyed.

It is hard for us to imagine young men killing women and children, but if they actually did run a sword through an innocent child (which we do not know even happened) the Lord could certainly blot that memory out.

This whole “war” is extremely unique and almost bazaar, since no Jewish soldier is said to have died, except 36 when one Jew rebelliously disobeyed a direct command of God.

What would it be like to go to war, knowing you could not be killed? Knowing you have God’s full protection? Knowing you are just an instrument of God’s judgment?

The way it was supposed to work was still contingent on the Jews following God’s commands:

Duet. 11: 22 If you carefully observe all these commands, I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him— 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you.

An angel, fire and hornets will go before them:

Ex. 23: 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. …27 “I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way.

Duet. 9:3 But be assured today that the Lord your God is the one who goes across ahead of you like a devouring fire. He will destroy them; he will subdue them before you.

Unless the Lord comes, we will all die, so why get upset with God stopping to provide life to some at any time and by any means?

Everything done throughout the Old Testament is in preparation for Christ’s coming, so we do not need to nitpick one thing taken out of that context.

 

[Hammster]

God NEVER intended Death to enter his Creation.

Your initial premise is incorrect. The proof of that is the cross. Without death, there’s no cross.

 

[Hammster]

If the Lord kills all the inhabitance of a country with some decease or with hornets, we would not call it genocide. So, if God uses Jewish soldiers to kill all the inhabitance left who did not run off in a city, how is that a genocide?

God ran off all the people who feared the Lord (good people to that extent), so the rest were destroyed.

It is hard for us to imagine young men killing women and children, but if they actually did run a sword through an innocent child (which we do not know ever happened) the Lord could certainly blot that memory out of the young soldier's mind.

This whole “war” is extremely unique and almost bazaar, since no Jewish soldier is said to have died, except 36 allowed to die by God's wishes, when one Jew rebelliously disobeyed a direct command of God.

What would it be like to go to war, knowing you could not be killed? Knowing you have God’s full protection? Knowing you are just an instrument of God’s judgment?

The way it was supposed to work was still contingent on the Jews following God’s commands:

Duet. 11: 22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him— 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you.

An angel, fire and hornets will go before them:

Ex. 23: 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. …27 “I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way.

Duet. 9:3 But be assured today that the Lord your God is the one who goes across ahead of you like a devouring fire. He will destroy them; he will subdue them before you.

Unless the Lord comes, we will all die, so why get upset with God stopping to provide life to some at any time and by any means?

Everything done throughout the Old Testament is in preparation for Christ’s coming, so we do not need to nitpick one thing taken out of that context.

Call it whatever you want. Call it fluffernutter. I don’t care.

Now, can you address the post?

 

[Grip Docility]

Your initial premise is incorrect. The proof of that is the cross. Without death, there’s no cross.

Correction: Your opinion is that my premise is incorrect. John 11:35 JESUS WEPT

John 11:33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in his spirit and greatly troubled.

 

[Hammster]

Correction: Your opinion that my premise is incorrect. John 11:35 JESUS WEPT

I know. Death is bad. It’s Christ’s final enemy. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t ordained. Remember, the cross is the goal. No sin, no cross.

 

[Aviel]

God is in a unique position, based on allowing us all : free will.

See, when God allows us to be "like Him" or "made in His image", then He has opted to allow Man to choose what they are going to do.

So, when we see Child Molesting, or when see, Islam or Gay Adoption, being allowed to exist..
When we see a Hitler, or a Ted Bundy, or a School Shooting...... it's because God is allowing them to exist, because every single person, has a right to choose to do what they want.

God created us all as free will moral agents, and some chose to not be moral, and some choose to be immoral, and some choose to kill other people.

This is not God "letting it happen".....This is God's gift to Humans.....in that God has given you the right to choose your behavior.

If you decide to use your life to harm others, then that is not God's fault, that is your CHOICE.

Never blame God for giving mankind the opportunity to choose what they do.

Even Choosing to go to Heaven or Hell, is our decision.

 

[friend of]

We Arminians are actually in agreement with our reformed brethren. We believe God can Sovereignly do as He wills. We just don't think He exercises irreversible Sovereignty all the time.

 

[Aviel]

This has nothing to do with the question in the OP.

I was responding to the Thread's Title.

As someone is slandering the Father of Jesus as committing Genocide.

Someone has misinterpreted God's Judgment, and His Right to judge HIS CREATION, according to HIS Holiness and how they offended HIM.

Its good that God gives us an opportunity to say whatever we want, as long as we remember that He is aware of every word we say, for Him, or against Him.

"count the cost", and "do as tho wilt".

See, the cost of Freedom, or Free Will is "consequences".

So, everyone who is on a Public "christian" Forum... who is willing to face those..... should say whatever their opinion leads them to state.

Dont you agree ?