Zionism, A Threat to Stability in the Middle East or the Only Way to Create It

mark kennedy

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Israel makes other people fight their wars, whether that be the US or the Jihadi's. They do not want stable countries next to them because the hatred for them is going nowhere since all the Arabs believe they stole the Palestinians land and they also carry out massacres against them pretty routinely. Stable countries can look outside their own borders and can wage an effective war. Unstable countries have to deal with internal problems so they can't even begin to think about Israel.

You have that all twisted, Iran was behind the proxy war, not Israel:

The Iran–Israel proxy conflict, or Iran–Israel proxy war, and Iran–Israel Cold War is the ongoing proxy war between Iran and Israel. The conflict is bound in the political struggle of Iranian leadership against Israel and its declared aim to dissolve the Jewish state. (Iran–Israel proxy conflict)
Israel doesn't use proxy Jihadi's to do their dirty work, if there is a problem with threats from a terrorist state, they will take care of it themselves:

The conflict started on 12 July 2006, and continued until a United Nations-brokered ceasefire went into effect in the morning on 14 August 2006, though it formally ended on 8 September 2006 when Israel lifted its naval blockade of Lebanon. Due to unprecedented Iranian military support to Hezbollah before and during the war, some consider it the first round of the Iran–Israel proxy conflict, rather than a continuation of the Arab–Israeli conflict. (2006 Lebanon War)​

The The seizure of Karine A loaded in Iran and bound for Gaza, carried tons of weapons and munitions intended to supply the Palestinians during the second Intifada. Israel does it's own fighting, It's Iran who used Jihadi proxies to launch terrorist attacks against Israel.
 
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mark kennedy

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He was trying to, however since the US invasion happened just a few years jus after the Iran-Iraq war in which many of the nuclear reactors of the Iraqis were destroyed, so there wasn’t much time to rebuild his arsenal of lethal and potent weapons. However Saddam was using chemical weapons during the war against Iran and against any form of opposition within Iraq what’s so ever.
We know he killed thousands at Al Faw and in a strike against the Kurds. Iraq was a dictatorship so no, I don't there was much internal resistance. The only weapons of mass destruction were left over from that conflict. Some how the inspectors couldn't get a full accounting of the weapons of mass destruction (WMD), Colin Powell told the UN Security Council that the responsibility was on Iraq to prove the didn't have them. I think the US made a solid argument that Iraq was in violation of various provisions of the UN resolutions. The one false argument that we know has been conclusively been proven to be false was the Iraq had a stock pile of WMDs.
 
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Barney2.0

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We know he killed thousands at Al Faw and in a strike against the Kurds. Iraq was a dictatorship so no, I don't there was much internal resistance. The only weapons of mass destruction were left over from that conflict. Some how the inspectors couldn't get a full accounting of the weapons of mass destruction (WMD), Colin Powell told the UN Security Council that the responsibility was on Iraq to prove the didn't have them. I think the US made a solid argument that Iraq was in violation of various provisions of the UN resolutions. The one false argument that we know has been conclusively been proven to be false was the Iraq had a stock pile of WMDs.
There was much internal resistance, mainly from the Shia Arab community who made up the majority of Iraq and still do, they didn’t like the government being dominated by Sunni Arabs (who are a minority) under Saddam Hussein.
 
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mark kennedy

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There’s no massacre against Palestinians neither do Palestinians own any land, the West Bank and Gaza Strip were transferred to the Palestinians illegally as per international law. If there are massacres carried out routinely against Palestinians would you kind telling me why there population has doubled over the years and continues to grow? Stable countries are no threat to Israel, Israel has waged war by itself against the whole Arab league and won, so Israel is not afraid of stable Arab countries as it’s fought them before and won.
The Palestinian uprising against Israel was brought on by a desire of the Palestinians to eliminate the nation of Israel. Israel invaded Lebanon in 2006 in retaliation to rocket attacks coming from southern Lebanon. The 7 Days War was fomented by continued border terrorism, Israel warned the UN Security Council that if it continued they wouldn't hesitate to use military force. On top of that Egyptian President Nasser was sending divisions of troops into the Sinai. Then Nasser orders a blockade of the Strait of Tiran:

In order to enforce the blockade, Egypt falsely announced that the Tiran straits had been mined. 90% of Israeli oil passed through the Straits of Tiran. Oil tankers that were due to pass through the straits were delayed. (Origins of the Six-Day War)
Israel launches preemptive airstrikes against the Egyptian air force and Syrian attacks Israel with tanks, Israel and Syria fighting to control the Golan Heights.

Now don't get me wrong, the Palestinians have had it rough. But Israel is going to defend themselves against terrorist attacks and proven themselves more then capable. Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as a nation and with every compromise they get another wave of terrorist attacks. The two state solution is the only viable option but that would require some kind of mutual respect, probably shouldn't expect to see that anytime soon. Israel hasn't been innocent in these conflicts, but they are essentially fighting for their right to exist as a nation. They didn't take nearly as much as they could have as the result of the 7 days war, and things have calmed down considerably between Israel and Palestine over the past ten years or so.

I wonder would it be unreasonable to bring the two to the table to discuss the two state solution again now.
 
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Barney2.0

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The Palestinian uprising against Israel was brought on by a desire of the Palestinians to eliminate the nation of Israel. Israel invaded Lebanon in 2006 in retaliation to rocket attacks coming from southern Lebanon. The 7 Days War was fomented by continued border terrorism, Israel warned the UN Security Council that if it continued they wouldn't hesitate to use military force. On top of that Egyptian President Nasser was sending divisions of troops into the Sinai. Then Nasser orders a blockade of the Strait of Tiran:

In order to enforce the blockade, Egypt falsely announced that the Tiran straits had been mined. 90% of Israeli oil passed through the Straits of Tiran. Oil tankers that were due to pass through the straits were delayed. (Origins of the Six-Day War)
Israel launches preemptive airstrikes against the Egyptian air force and Syrian attacks Israel with tanks, Israel and Syria fighting to control the Golan Heights.

Now don't get me wrong, the Palestinians have had it rough. But Israel is going to defend themselves against terrorist attacks and proven themselves more then capable. Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as a nation and with every compromise they get another wave of terrorist attacks. The two state solution is the only viable option but that would require some kind of mutual respect, probably shouldn't expect to see that anytime soon. Israel hasn't been innocent in these conflicts, but they are essentially fighting for their right to exist as a nation. They didn't take nearly as much as they could have as the result of the 7 days war, and things have calmed down considerably between Israel and Palestine over the past ten years or so.

I wonder would it be unreasonable to bring the two to the table to discuss the two state solution again now.
Well no nation on Earth is innocent, neither is Israel. However Israel has offered the chance for a two state solution more times then I myself can recall, and I can list how many times the Palestinian spurned those offers of equal recognition as two separate states.
 
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mark kennedy

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There was much internal resistance, mainly from the Shia Arab community who made up the majority of Iraq and still do, they didn’t like the government being dominated by Sunni Arabs (who are a minority) under Saddam Hussein.
That much is true, the Shia are still a majority in Iraq. I remember during the Iraq war the Chief of Police in Fallujah was removed from office, supposedly because he was Sunni. The US military didn't like that much because he had been so cooperative with them of the years following the invasion. I think the problem after the war that led to the rise of ISIS was that the Kurds got the oil in the north, the Shia got political control in Baghdad, and the Sunni in the Al Anbar region of the east got dirt.
 
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mark kennedy

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Well no nation on Earth is innocent, neither is Israel. However Israel has offered the chance for a two state solution more times then I myself can recall, and I can list how many times the Palestinian spurned those offers of equal recognition as two separate states.
As I recall the peace accord during the Clinton administration fell apart over control of the Temple Mount. Jerusalem has long been something neither side is interested in sharing, but your right, Palestine has continually refused to recognize the right of Israel to exist. That sure makes it hard to negotiate with someone who hates you and won't even recognize your right to exist.
 
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Barney2.0

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As I recall the peace accord during the Clinton administration fell apart over control of the Temple Mount. Jerusalem has long been something neither side is interested in sharing, but your right, Palestine has continually refused to recognize the right of Israel to exist. That sure makes it hard to negotiate with someone who hates you and won't even recognize your right to exist.
I myself believe that until the Palestinians reform themselves and pick themselves up to make peace with Israel and I mean a sincere peace not the fake peace that we’ve been seeing for so long, a one state solution is the only way to go.
 
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Barney2.0

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That much is true, the Shia are still a majority in Iraq. I remember during the Iraq war the Chief of Police in Fallujah was removed from office, supposedly because he was Sunni. The US military didn't like that much because he had been so cooperative with them of the years following the invasion. I think the problem after the war that led to the rise of ISIS was that the Kurds got the oil in the north, the Shia got political control in Baghdad, and the Sunni in the Al Anbar region of the east got dirt.
I think the Sunni Arabs never should be given political power since they usually threaten the peace most of the time.
 
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AlexDTX

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So your telling me that the majority of the Israeli Parliament are Zionists? I know historically they have been very influential but I know little of what their status is currently. I know recently the Israeli Parliament attempted to establish Jewish only settlements but I didn't really follow it. Occasionally a Jewish group will go into the West Bank or Gaza and try to start a settlement, that usually ends with them being sent back to Israel and anything they built getting bull dozed.
Israel Shahak in his book, "Jewish History, Jewish Religion..." makes that argument.
 
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mark kennedy

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I myself believe that until the Palestinians reform themselves and pick themselves up to make peace with Israel and I mean a sincere peace not the fake peace that we’ve been seeing for so long, a one state solution is the only way to go.
There are some pretty serious problems with that, Israel would likely have to annex the West Bank and Gaza, maybe even the Golan Heights. What would be the disposition of the Palestinians as a result? You can't just kick them out, it's unlikely that Israel would agree to making them Israeli citizens and the only other alternative is something akin to a Middle Eastern apartheid. I encountered this little fun fact:

Around 200,000 Israelis now live in East Jerusalem. Combined with the roughly 400,000 settlers in the West Bank, about 600,000 Israelis now live beyond the country's 1967 borders. That's nearly 10 percent of Israel's 6.3 million Jewish citizens. (7 Things To Know About Israeli Settlements NPR)
Maybe Israel is intended to just buy them out, one settlement at a time. Buy some land, build some nice settlements and just slowly squeeze the Palestinians out of control.
 
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mark kennedy

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I think the Sunni Arabs never should be given political power since they usually threaten the peace most of the time.
You appear to be in a fairly unique position to evaluate Sunni Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia. So what's it like being an Eastern Orthodox living in a Sunni controlled country? I know there's been a Christian presence in Palestine since at least the third century so they apparently have some tolerance of Christians. I know they can be pretty ethically oriented in the Middle East, do you think that's a big factor or are there other considerations that guide the interaction? Just curious really, what's it like for an EO living in Saudis Arabia?
 
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football5680

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You have that all twisted, Iran was behind the proxy war, not Israel:
Both sides are behind it.

Israel doesn't use proxy Jihadi's to do their dirty work, if there is a problem with threats from a terrorist state, they will take care of it themselves:
In Syria, they do. They wanted Assad gone so they gave support to the rebels in an attempt to make this happen. Luckily Russia stepped in and prevented this from happening but Syria has been destroyed and it will take decades to rebuild. Even though Assad is still in power, Syria has been effectively neutralized as a threat to Israel.
 
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RDKirk

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It does if you keep reading.

It does not, if you keep reading.

Iraq, like Libya had done since the 70s, was diddling with trying to set up a WMD program through the 90s, but never succeeded.

There were no stockpiles of operational chemical weapons in Iraq in 2003.
 
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football5680

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There’s no massacre against Palestinians neither do Palestinians own any land, the West Bank and Gaza Strip were transferred to the Palestinians illegally as per international law.
How so?

If there are massacres carried out routinely against Palestinians would you kind telling me why there population has doubled over the years and continues to grow?
Because a few hundred or thousand deaths here and there is not going to have a huge effect on a country with 5 million people.

Stable countries are no threat to Israel, Israel has waged war by itself against the whole Arab league and won, so Israel is not afraid of stable Arab countries as it’s fought them before and won.
Because the countries that attacked were incompetent and made poor decisions. I doubt that Israel would feel comfortable resting their strategy on the hope that the Arabs would once again make bad decisions.
 
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mark kennedy

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Both sides are behind it.

I disagree, Iran prosecuted a proxy war and were known to have supplied the second Palestinian intifada. Israel went to Camp David and negotiated in good faith while Arafat derailed the talks with his insistence of total control of the Temple Mount. Israel does not fight proxy wars, if they have a problem they will not hesitate to engage anyone who threatens them through direct military intervention.

In Syria, they do. They wanted Assad gone so they gave support to the rebels in an attempt to make this happen. Luckily Russia stepped in and prevented this from happening but Syria has been destroyed and it will take decades to rebuild. Even though Assad is still in power, Syria has been effectively neutralized as a threat to Israel.

We supported the rebels as well while Assad was using barrel bombs and nerve gas on his own people. Syria has proven to be a threat to Israel and even a threat to their own domestic security simply because of the brutal dictatorship of Assad. One thing is for sure, Israel doesn't need a proxy war to neutralize a threat from Syria, they decisively turned them back once and are perfectly capable of doing it again.
 
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mark kennedy

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Barney2.0

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How so?


Because a few hundred or thousand deaths here and there is not going to have a huge effect on a country with 5 million people.


Because the countries that attacked were incompetent and made poor decisions. I doubt that Israel would feel comfortable resting their strategy on the hope that the Arabs would once again make bad decisions.
Technically Israel should have rights to all of Jerusalem since the West Bank is entirely considered disputed territory by UN international law. The Palestinians do not have clear rights to any part of Jerusalem or even the West Bank and Gaza. The UN has no right to transfer any part of land to the Arabs from the Jewish homeland they promised as per their own rules:

  • The prior owners were the Turks.
  • The Turks transferred sovereignty to the Allied Powers via binding international treaties.
  • The Allied Powers created the Mandates (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Jordan were ALSO created via the Mandate process), and the League of Nations ratified them.
  • The Mandate for Palestine vests future rights to national sovereignty over its territory to the Jewish People (and no other).
  • Article 80 of the UN charter preserves all rights granted by the Mandates. The UN is prohibited by its own charter from transferring any part of the territory of the Mandate to a foreign power, per article 5 of the Mandate.
Israel beat the Arabs in a number of wars, whether the Arabs made stupid decisions or not doesn’t matter, what does is that Israel has the capabilities to wage war on stable countries. By the way the Egyptians and Syrians in the Yom Kippur war weren’t making bad decisions, it was Israel genius that won the war not Arab stupidity. A few hundred and thousand deaths are due to the ongoing war in the area, not due to massacres which would have resulted in the deaths of millions.
 
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Barney2.0

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It does not, if you keep reading.

Iraq, like Libya had done since the 70s, was diddling with trying to set up a WMD program through the 90s, but never succeeded.

There were no stockpiles of operational chemical weapons in Iraq in 2003.
But the fact remains that in the 1980s Saddam did possess substantial quantities of WMD and used them. But since America was originally supporting his war against Iran and supplying him with chemical weapons they’re just as guilty as he was.
 
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mark kennedy

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But the fact remains that in the 1980s Saddam did possess substantial quantities of WMD and used them. But since America was originally supporting his war against Iran and supplying him with chemical weapons they’re just as guilty as he was.
Unfortunately, that much is certainly true, we are guilty of at least enabling Saddam because we were still indignant about the hostage situation. In our anger at Iran the US policies went a long way to help create that monster, at least until the Persian Gulf War. We never really gave him weapons of mass destruction but certainly facilitated the development of them. (U.S. Links to Saddam During Iran-Iraq War, NPR)

In short we created a monster, if we hadn't it was looking like Iran was going to win that war.
 
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