• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Zechariah 14 speaks of the New Jerusalem

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,496
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Can verse eight be fulfilled before verse two?

    For Jesus himself claimed to have fulfilled Zech 14:8 during His earthly ministry (John 7:38)
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,575
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    When Psalms 2 is fulfilled, Jesus will be returning to this earth in great power and glory.

    Psalms 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
     
  3. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

    +14,191
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    Impossible.

    Compare the size of the New Jerusalem, (a square 1500 miles on a side) and the fact that Jeremiah 14 talks about the Mount of olives being outside the city.

    Jeremiah 14 is pre-millenium and the Rev 22 New Jerusalem is post-millennium.

    Rev 21:15 The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal. ​
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  4. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
    Married
    Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    Stick to the OP dave. The OP is not about Jeremiah 14.

    In the Septuagint translation of zechariah 14:11, Jerusalem is said to have no more curse, after it is destroyed in Zechariah 14:2


    Zechariah 14:11 they shall dwell in the city; and there shall be no more any curse, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely.

    revelation 22:3 also states Jerusalem will no longer have a curse. The Jerusalem in this context, is of course, the New Jerusalem.
    Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse

    Your argument does nothing to address the OP, which is that there is no longer any curse in the Jerusalem of Zechariah 14:11 and Revelation 22:3, therefore they must be the same.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

    This verse isn't even remotely meaning John 7:38. It's more than likely referring to the following instead. and why not? Apparently Zechariah 14:8 is meaning once Zechariah 14:11 is fulfilled. Where some of us are at least in agreement that the Jerusalem meant in verse 11 is the NJ. Can't have the NJ without the NHNE though. Is not Revelation 22:1-2 within NHNE context?



    Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


    Let's now compare Zechariah 14:8 with John 7:38.


    Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

    John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


    In Zechariah 14:8 it says this----half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea. Half of them? How can it not be these living waters? Let's see if Zechariah 14:8 can fit John 7:38 and the text make sense.

    He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water, half of the living waters toward the former sea, and half of the living waters toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

    Maybe that makes sense to you, not to me though. Rivers of living water flowing out of one's belly hardly involves a former sea, and a hinder sea, where half this living waters go to one sea, the other half to the other sea. If the literal sense makes sense, why make nonsense of the text by trying to apply John 7:38 to it?


    I also suggest maybe rereading Ezekiel 47. Maybe that chapter sheds some light on Zechariah 14:8? One thing I do know though, John 7:38 doesn't seem to shed any light on Zechariah 14:8.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  6. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

    +14,191
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    talking about the millennial kingdom, NOT the New Jerusalem.
    Only on that point. The rest does not line up.

    And as I said, if you have Yeshua/Jesus physically reigning there during the millenium, all curses would be banished.
     
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
    Married

    There is no more death in the millennial kingom?
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,496
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    What OT prophesy about the arrival of living waters do you believe Jesus is claiming to have fulfilled in John 7:38, if not Zech 14:8?
     
  9. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    Yet that text in Zechariah 14:8 doesn't even say what the text in John 7:38 says. The living waters meant in Zechariah 14:8 involve half of them going to one sea, the other half going to another sea. So where else might John 7:38 be quoting from? That I can't tell you. I think Commentators even basically agree with one another that it's not clear as to where John 7:38 may have been quoting from.
     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
    Married
    According to John, Jesus was talking about the Spirit that would come after He was glorified:
    John 7:37-39 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”c By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    The new Jerusalem was being built during the time of Christ, with Christ himself being the chief cornerstone
    Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone

    Christ himself picked the 12 stones to start the foundation, and upon his ascension into glorification, he sent the Spirit, which was a river that would flow from His New Jerusalem.

    Notice John only quotes part of Zechariah 10 as fulfilled upon Jesus' crucifixion, specifically, the part written about Jesus:

    John 19:37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”d
    Zechariah 12:10 They will look onb me, the one they have pierced,

    Jesus quotes the rest of Zechariah 12:10-14 as being fulfilled when Christ comes on the clouds.
    Matthew 24:30 And then all the tribes of the landc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
    Revelation also has the full fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10-14
    Revelation 1:7
    and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all tribes of the land “will mourn because of him.”c

    Zechariah 12:10-14 and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14and all the rest of the clans and their wives

    I would argue the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10-14 in John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7 is similar to the Zechariah 14:8 fulfillment in John 7:38 and Revelation 22:1
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,496
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Since there is only one OT prophesy about the Arrival of Living waters, And Jesus specifically states He fulfills Living waters prophesy, "as the scripture has said" We have no other Biblical option than to assign Jesus statement in John 7:38 to Zechariah 14:8.

    There are plenty of unbiblical options on where to assign Jesus words, as apparent in some of the replies here including yours, But Zechariah 14:8 is the ONLY Biblical one.

    Ours is to simply accept it.

    If your preferred paradigm surrounding the application of Zecharaih 14 does not fit with such an assignment that Jesus makes in John 7:38, I would suggest it's your paradigm that needs to be adjusted to fit Jesus' words and not His words that need adjusting to fit your paradigm.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +27,718
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Zechariah 14 speaks of the New Jerusalem

    Well, we do know that Jesus sat, stood and walked around at the Mount of Olives.

    The phrase "Mount of Olives" is shown in only 1 verse of the OT according to a Hebrew concordance.

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...ia=mount+of+olives&t=YLT&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1

    Zechariah 14:4
    And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

    And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley;
    Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
    And half of it toward the south.

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ke-21-harmonized.8076438/page-5#post-73139798

    Matthew 24:3
    Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us.....

    Mark 13:3
    and of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives facing the Temple,

    Luke 19:37
    Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the Disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen,

    Luke 21
    5 And as some were speaking about the Temple, that it was adorned with goodly stones and consecrated gifts, He said,
    37 And He was during the days in the Temple teaching, and during the nights, going forth, He was lodging at the Mount called of Olives;

    Luke 22:39
    Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His Disciples also followed Him.

    It is only mentioned 1 time outside the Gospels

    Act 1:12
    11 who also said, 'Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.'
    12 Then did they return to Jerusalem from the mount that is called of Olives, that is near Jerusalem, a sabbath's journey;

     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married


    Why would I, or anyone for that matter, want to accept something that makes nonsense, rather than sense, out of the texts involved? How does living water flowing out of one's belly possibly make sense of half of the living waters toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea? Not to mention, the text also indicates it is living waters that shall go out from Jerusalem. How does one then make Jerusalem meaning one's belly? So maybe in my case it's not so much about "my preferred paradigm surrounding the application of Zechariah 14", and that maybe it's more about the texts making sense, rather than sounding nonsensical instead.
     
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
    Married
    Sometimes the fulfillments of scripture are not easily understood. For example:

    Matthew 2:16-18When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
    “A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.”d

    Jeremiah 31:15
    This is what the Lord says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.”

    Now, if Matthew did not write this down for our beneift, would we have ever known Herod ordering the slaughter of boys in Bethlehem fulfilled Jeremiah 31:15? Does this fulfillment make complete sense? To me it doesn't, but it is written.

    The New testament does not go through each verse of the OT and state how it is/was fulfilled. Some are clear and some, like the one above, are not clear.

    And so it is with what Jesus states in John 7:38. It may not make full sense to you, but it is written.



     
  15. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married


    Maybe others disagree with my approach of things, but my approach of things is basically the following. When it comes to prophecy in particular, I tend to think chronology matters, IOW a sensible timeline of some kind needs to be established. Because if it doesn't, how does one determine who might be the main targets of the prophecies, and when the prophecies are to be executed? With that in mind---


    Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    The 'Then' that begins verse 3 obviously involves chronology. The LORD doesn't go forth, and fight against those nations, before verse 2 is even fulfilled. But because of the fulfilling of verse 2, it then causes the fulfilling of verse 3.

    Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


    The text says---And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives. In what day? How can it not be when He begins fulfilling verse 3? As to verse 2, would anyone place the timing of that prior to His death and resurrection? Or instead, wouldn't pretty much everyone place the timing of verse 2 after His death and resurrection? If the latter, that also places the time of verse 4 post His death and resurrection. The question is, post His death and resurrection, has the following ever been fulfilled yet----And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south?

    If yes, then I assume one can prove that with the Bible or at least with Ancient history records of some kind. If no, what should that be telling us then? That verse 4 apparently involves His 2nd coming.
     
  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    I agree with the point you are making here via your examples. But as to John 7:38 and Zechariah 14:8 though, where in the NT is there confirmation, like you provided above per Matthew 2 and Jeremiah 31, that John 7:38 is the fulfilling of Zechariah 14:8?
     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
    Married
    Jesus states 'as the scripture has said'.
    John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, asf the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.

    What scripture is he referencing? Is it Zechariah 14:8?
    Zechariah 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem

    If it isn't zechariah 14:8, what other scriptures in the OT talk about the flow of living waters?
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +27,718
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian

    The Mt of Olives is only mentioned 1 time in the OT and numerous times in the NT,
    however, the phrase "Mount Zion" is mentioned numerous times in the OT, but only 2 times in the NT, 1 of those in Revelation.

    Is there any kind of connection between the 2 Mounts?

    Jude 1:14
    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying,
    'Behold, the LORD cometh with myriads<3461 of His saints,'


    Hebrews 12:22
    But ye have come-toward<4334> to Mount Zion, to the City of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
    And to myriads<3461> of Messengers,

    Revelation 14:1

    Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb<721 standing on Mount Zion,
    and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.



     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,496
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Let's see if we can work on making some sense of it then.

    Setting aside Hinder and former for a moment... the generic "sea" in scripture is often applied to the Nations that are not Israel, namely, the Gentiles.

    Revelation 17:15 clearly exemplifies the fact that sea or waters represents foreign nations: “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.”

    There are many other examples in the Bible in which words like sea or waters clearly represent nations foreign to the specific kingdom addressed (Daniel 7; 9:26; 11:10, 40; Psalm 65:7; 144:7, Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 60:5; Jeremiah 46:7-8; 47:1-2; 51:55-56; Ezekiel 26:3; Nahum 1:8):

    Reach down your hand from on high; deliver me and rescue me from the mighty waters, from the hands of foreigners[.]” (Psalm 144:7)

    Woe to the many nations that rage—they rage like the raging sea! Woe to the peoples who roar—they roar like the roaring of great waters! (Isaiah 17:12)

    Then you will look and be radiant, your heart will throb and swell with joy; the wealth on the seas will be brought to you, to you the riches of the nations will come. (Isaiah 60:5)

    “Who is this that rises like the Nile, like rivers of surging waters? Egypt rises like the Nile, like rivers of surging waters. She says, ‘I will rise and cover the earth; I will destroy cities and their people.’ (Jeremiah 46:7-8)

    This is the word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the Philistines before Pharaoh attacked Gaza: This is what the Lord says: “See how the waters are rising in the north; they will become an overflowing torrent. They will overflow the land and everything in it, the towns and those who live in them. The people will cry out; all who dwell in the land will wail (Jeremiah 47:1-2)

    The Lord will destroy Babylon; he will silence her noisy din. Waves of enemies will rage like great waters; the roar of their voices will resound. A destroyer will come against Babylon; her warriors will be captured, and their bows will be broken. (Jeremiah 51:55-56)

    [T]herefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. (Ezekiel 26:3)

    As illustrated in some of the quotes above, this imagery also extends to related words like rivers or flood. In Isaiah 8:7-8 the coming of the Assyrian army to Israel is pictured as the mighty Euphrates overflowing its banks: “Therefore the Lord is about to bring against them the mighty floodwaters of the Euphrates—the king of Assyria with all his pomp. It will overflow all its channels, run over all its banks and sweep on into Judah, swirling over it, passing through it and reaching up to the neck.” Similar symbolism is found in Daniel 11:10 and Daniel 11:40:

    His sons will prepare for war and assemble a great army, which will sweep on like an irresistible flood and carry the battle as far as his fortress. (Daniel 11:10)

    At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. (Daniel11:40)

    The same imagery is also found in Nahum 1:8: “but with an overwhelming flood he will make an end of Nineveh.” The flood of Nahum 1:8 represents the allied armies of the Babylonians, Susianans, Scythians and Medes that destroyed Nineveh in 612 B.C. The same meaning is also implicit in Joel 2:9. Here an invading army is pictured breaking through a city like a surge of flood waters: “They rush upon the city; they run along the wall. They climb into the houses; like thieves they enter through the windows.”

    The fact that sea represents foreign nations is not just limited to the Bible, this meaning is also found in extra-biblical Hebrew sacred texts like the Talmud and the Dead Sea Scrolls. In the Talmud foreign nations are literally called “provinces of the sea.”1 Hymn 7 of the Dead Sea Scrolls depicts a foreign besieging army in flood or water imagery: “And I said Mighty men have pitched their camps against me with all their weapons of war. . . . The clamour of their shouting is like the bellowing of many waters, like a storm of destruction devouring a multitude of men; as their waves rear up[.]” Furthermore, in 1QpNah 1:3-4 (4Q169) of the Dead Sea Scrolls the sea in Nahum 1:4 is interpreted to represent the Kittim, the Romans: “’the sea’ is all the Ki[ttim . . .].”The Anchor Bible: Revelation A New Translation With Introduction And Commentary, (Garden City, New York: Doubleday &amp; Company, Inc., 1975), 286." title="" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; outline: none; color: rgb(33, 117, 155);">2 Likewise in Hymn 14 of the Dead Sea Scrolls flood is also used as a metaphor for invading armies. And the same meaning is implied in 4Q437 (combined with 4Q434-5) of the Dead Sea Scrolls which mentions “the stream of the gentiles.” Concerning the fact that water imagery symbolizes foreigners, G. K. Beale writes the following:

    The metaphor of “many waters” also stands for antagonistic nations in Targ. Cant. 8:7; Targ. Isa. 21:1; Midr. Pss. 93:4-7; Midr. Rab. Num. 2.16; Midr. Rab. Cant. 8.7, §1; likewise Targ. Isa. 8:7 (“numerous as the waters’). The “many waters” of Ps. 18:16 is rendered by the targum as “many people[.]”The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text, (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2013), 882." title="" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; outline: none; color: rgb(33, 117, 155);">3

    So, should Zechariah be using "Sea" the same way John uses it to mean peoples, multitudes, nations and languages, it should be simple to make sense applying it to the receivers of the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

    Which peoples of what city first received the Living waters of the Holy Spirit and where did they begin spreading the living waters gospel from? Jerusalem of course, which makes PERFECT sense.

    No, I still believe it's your paradigm.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,496
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    We do have record of early Christian Scholars agreeing:

    As ECF Tertullian (A.D. 145-220) wrote (barely 150 years after it happened):
    “But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives. For thus had Zechariah pointed out: ‘And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives’
     
Loading...