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Featured Zechariah 14 speaks of the New Jerusalem

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I agree the 6th seal is about the coming of the son of man

    Psalm 2 is not about the battle of Armageddon. We know this because the elders in acts state that psalm 2 was fulfilled with the suffering and crucifixion of Christ by herod, pilate, gentiles, and people of Israel.

    Acts 4:25-28
    You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
    “ ‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up
    and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed one
    .bc
    Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen
     
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your parenthetical interpretation above.

    Yet the son and the Father are still one:

    Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son (Jesus) he (the Father) says, “Your (Jesus) throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
    John 10:30 I and the Father are one

    Which gives Paul the authority to claim:
    1 Corinthians 15:25 he (Jesus) must reign until he (Jesus) has put all his enemies under his feet.

    It means he is both Lord and Christ
    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

    It means he has been exalted over every authority, power, rule, and dominion. And from this position in heaven, everything is it put under his feet
    Ephesians 1:20-22which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come. And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church,
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Peter made use of Psalms 2 in his preaching, but it was not the fulfillment of Psalms 2. Psalms 2 is still yet forthcoming.
     
  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I have no disagreements that I can think of atm, with that of what you expressed here.

    So what about when He returns then? What if there is a period of time from when He returns until the following is fulfilled?

    1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


    Regardless whether that period of time is less than a 24 hour period, or more than a 24 hour period, the point would be this. When He has returned, He no longer is in heaven.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    This is apparently something He does once He returns. What He does here has to precede the fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15:28 though. If verse 32 and 33 is something He does after He leaves heaven, thus something He does on the earth, is He still sitting on the right hand of God when all nations are being gathered to Him?
     
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  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't Peter, and this wasn't preaching. I suggest reading Acts 4.

    Acts 4:24-26 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,d said by the Holy Spirit,

    Why did the Gentiles rage,
    and the peoples plot in vain?
    The kings of the earth set themselves,
    and the rulers were gathered together,
    against the Lord and against his Anointed
    e

    Peter's friends, upon hearing Peter, say psalm 2 occurred against Jesus at his suffering and Crucifixion:
    Acts 4:27-28 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.


    Additionally, Jesus states that he had to be crucified and resurrected to fulfill EVERYTHING written about him in the law, prophets, and PSALMS. this includes psalm 2
    Luke 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that EVERYTHING written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and THE PSALMS must be fulfilled.”
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You probably are not aware, but the Jews have an acronym for their bible - the TANACH.
    (Torah, Nevi'im, and K'tuvim). Torah, although the law, for Jews is considered instructions for life.

    The TANACH acronym for their bible represents (1) the first five books of the Bible, also called the Law of Moses because that is who they got it through.(2) the prophets (3) the writings. That is basically the same three divisions Jesus said. The Psalms would be the writings.

    btw, the Jews don't consider Daniel a prophet, and place the book of Daniel with the writings, and not the prophets. Yes, they are wrong, but I am just giving you some information.

    claninja, I don't think you are aware of a factor, that makes what Jesus said to them make more sense..

    "....that I spoke to you while I was still with you....."

    In the above verse, Jesus was reminding them of what he had told them before the crucifixion - but it did not sink in. In fact was hidden by God from them, from understanding.

    Before Jesus would be crucified, he told the disciples what was going to happen - but even though they heard his words, they did not grasp what he was saying. Take a look at Luke 18... and then what he said to them after the resurrection in Luke 24:44 will make more sense.

    Luke 18
    31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

    32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

    33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

    34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    Not only was it hid from their understanding, but also Satan and his angels. They had no idea that by partaking in the killing of Jesus - it would be the very thing that would free man-kind from the penalty of sin - and at the same time make it possible for God to justly destroy Satan for his sins, without destroying all of humanity for being guilty of sin, as well.

    1Corinthians2:
    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Satan was always trying to kill Jesus because Satan thought by killing the King, he could prevent the Kingdom of God replacing his own Kingdom and control of humanity. Ultimately, though, the Kingdom of God is going to replace his kingdom.

    Which if you look in Revelation 10, when the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, the mystery of God will be completed. That mystery is how the Kingdom of God will be brought here to earth, taking the Kingdoms of this earth away from under Satan and his angel's kingdom of Mystery, Babylon the great.

    Which is why after the 1260 days, plus the 3 1/2 days, of the two witnesses, the 7th trumpet sounds. Those 1260 days in Revelation 12 are the same 1260 days of the two witnesses. Which are followed by the war in (the second) heaven in Revelation 12.

    The 7th trumpet sounds, and that is the go signal for Michael and his angels, to war against Satan and his angels in the second heaven, crashing their kingdom down to earth, as God starts dismantling it over a three year plus timeframe. Which in Revelation 12, Satan will have a time, times, half times left.

    If you look in Daniel 12, it is the old testament counterpart of Michael's actions. And how long will the hard times be for Israel following Michael standing up for them in Daniel 12 in the text? a time, times, half times ! Daniel 12:7

    _________________________________________________________

    Hopefully, the above will give you some further insight into your eschatology. And
    why Satan wants to destroy Christians like you and I and everyone in this forum - because we are for the Kingdom of God.

    But God is going to destroy him instead, and his works, and his kingdom.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
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  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Okay, fair enough. And good for pointing that out. We'll take the saying off Peter, and put on it his friends, for using Psalms 2. It still is not the fulfillment of Psalms2. Psalm2 is going to be fulfilled when the kings of the earth try to make war on Jesus with their armies.

    Peter and his friends probably didn't have Revelation available to them at that time, to know about this verse.

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    That's the why do the heathen rage and image a vain thing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on the writings of Josephus, the above may be true of modern Orthodox Jews, but not those who lived near the time of Christ.


    From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

    "6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

    7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


    Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
    Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


    .
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    If you go to this site, you will find Daniel not found grouped with the prophets, in their present bible. I don't know the history of when they organized their present bible.

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm
     
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  10. Seville90210

    Seville90210 Psalm 118:26

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    John 14:2 King James Version (KJV)

    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


    Some of those verses are future prophesies. All of them are taken out of context made to say what you want it to say. Example, Ephesians 1:21 is about God the Father being ruler. He's given Christ the power and authority to be ruler but Christ is not yet exercising His authority till He returns to reign over the world to come, the new heaven new earth, one where righteousness dwells. Because Christ will bring about righteousness upon the earth, not anything like the current world today filled and ruled by sin.

    2 Peter 3:13 New Living Translation (NLT)
    But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.

    If Christ is reigning over the earth right now, I sure don't see much righteousness around me. Watch out for the antichrist, the saints will be given to him.

    Ephesians 1:17-22 New Living Translation (NLT)
    17 asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. 18 I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.

    19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church.



    No, He is not yet the ruler of this world. Revelation 1 is another prophecy of the future.

    John 14:29-31 New Living Translation (NLT)
    29 I have told you these things before they happen so that when they do happen, you will believe.
    30 “I don’t have much more time to talk to you, because the ruler of this world approaches. He has no power over me, 31 but I will do what the Father requires of me, so that the world will know that I love the Father. Come, let’s be going.





    Oh sure! First tells me the name of another apostle God called up to heaven and gave a revelation of the future to besides John and I'll be happy to provide another scripture.

    My bible tells me God only gave John the vision of the future. So who's the other apostle you want scriptures from?




    Try a few verses down succeeding Revelation 20:4.

    My bible saids the earth. What does your bible say in Revelation 20:8-9?

    Revelation 20:4-9 King James Version (KJV)
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.




    Do you not believe in the Trinity?
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Those who belong to Him serve a victorious Savior.

    Luk_10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

    Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
    (He triumphed over evil at Calvary.)

    Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    (He is both Lord(ruler) and Christ(Messiah) on the Day of Pentecost.)

    .
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    After 70 AD.



    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  13. Seville90210

    Seville90210 Psalm 118:26

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    You won't know you belong to Him till after the rapture. Many will be surprised.

     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on Luke 3:16, and John 3:1-16, and Romans 8:9, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and Ephesians 1:13, those who have been "born again" of the Spirit of God already belong to Him.

    1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



    We do not need to wait on a John Nelson Darby's "Secret Rapture" to find out.


    .
     
  15. Seville90210

    Seville90210 Psalm 118:26

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    Than go ahead, explain how one becomes born again. How do you know when someone is born again?
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    If you do not know, then you are not...

    .
     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Correct, most of the believers did not see Jesus in the scriptures until after he was crucified and risen, and after the holy spirit came. What can be seen, is throughout Acts the disciples begin to see Christ throughout the law, prophets, and psalms, thus quoting scripture when they realize the events are fulfilled

    Why would the friends of peter mention Herod, Pilate, gentiles, and israelites coming against Jesus, the annointed one, if it has nothing to do with psalm 2 (kings, gentiles, peoples coming agains the annointed one)? This clearly shows your eschatological view trumps all else.
     
  18. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    So the friends of Peter were off/possibly wrong because they didn't have the book of revelation?

    I completely disagree.
     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    There could be, Paul doesn't say. So I wouldn't build a doctrine based the absence of proof from 1 Corinthians 15. If Paul states else where in his epistles that there is a large gap of time (ie. millennium) between the coming of Christ and the resurrection, then the possibility of a gap of time between the coming of Christ and the resurrection would be more likely.

    Paul does give a specific sequence of time though:


    Christ reigns from heaven until ALL his enemies are put under his feet
    1 Corinthians 15:22-23 so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits;
    1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet

    The last enemy to be defeated is death, which occurs at his coming
    1 Corinthians 15:23 when he comes, those who belong to him.
    1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

    After the resurrection, the end comes and the kingdom is handed over to the Father, to be all in all. Now, is there a time between the resurrection and the kingdom being handed over to God? I don't know. It just states when Christ defeats death, he becomes subject to God.
    1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
    1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    And according to Paul's writings, we know the resurrection (defeat of death) occurs at the trumpet:
    1 Corinthians 15:53-54 For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

    And according to Paul the resurrection occurs when Christ descends at the trumpet
    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first

    And according to Jesus, the resurrection occurs at his coming with the trumpet
    Matthew 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    God "came down" from heaven to defeat David's enemies, does that mean Heaven was empty of God?
    2 Samuel 22:10-11 He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soaredd on the wings of the wind.



    Jesus will come back from heaven, the same way he went INTO heaven, in the clouds.
    Acts 1:9,11 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    Notice the sign of the Son of Man is IN heaven and Christ "comes on the clouds" as He did in the Old testament
    Matthew 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

    It is in the clouds, where we meet Jesus. This is where we are gathered to him
    1 thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever
    2 thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters

    This is under the assumption that it takes place on earth.


    Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.


    Matthew 24:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
     
  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    This is a good one too! thanks for that one.

    Look what happens when Christ returns, he takes them to be where he was when he prepared a place for them: Heaven

    John 14:3-4 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.”c

    I disagree, and as you haven't shown how they are taken out of context, there is really nothing to go on.

    Incorrect, notice the last thing Paul writes, "NOT ONLY IN THIS AGE, BUT ALSO in the one to come". Thus Christ was placed far above all rule, power, and dominion in "this age" AND "the one to come"

    Ephesians 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

    There are 2 ways to look at this:

    Futurist: The greek verb for reign is present indicative active, which means he is currently doing it. If Christ must reign until his enemies are made a footstool, that means there are still enemies to be subdued. If there are still enemies, then their is still unrighteousness to subdued before he comes.
    1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet

    Preterist: Unrighteousness and sin still exist outside of the new Jerusalem
    Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
    But not inside the New Jerusalem. Thus when you see unrighteousness in the world, it is of those who are outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. And the new Jerusalem is called to heal these nations and be their light, something that the old earthly Jerusalem never did:

    Revelation 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
    Revelation 22:3 The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    So then I suppose you don't believe Christ is yet the faithful witness or first born of the death either?
    Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

    about what I expected as a response from you. You have one chapter from the most symbolic book in the Bible and that's what you base a doctrine off of. Revelation is not a new prophecy, it is a revealing of the OT prophecies.

    Doctrines should be built of the witness of scripture (2 more witnesses)

    Satan is loosed upon the earth. This mentions nothing of Christ physically reigning on earth

    Yes I do believe in the triune God, and you know why? because a multitude of scripture discuss the divinity of Christ, the Spirit, and the Father from across the Bible

    You know what doesn't have a multitude of scripture from across the Bible? the millennium.....
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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