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Featured Zechariah 14:4 "HIS FEET WILL STAND ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES"

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The Capital "C" "Church" as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
    Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

    Gentiles and Jews are only granted salvation through faith in Christ.
    There is no Plan B during the tribulation period.

    The term "tribulation saints" is not found in scripture.

    It has been manufactured to make the Pretrib doctrine work.





    `And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for him as none mourns for his only son and grieve for Him as one grieves for a first-born.` (Zech. 12: 10)

    The scripture above was fulfilled at Calvary and on the Day of Pentecost.

    Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
    Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
    Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
    Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


    Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
    Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  2. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi the verses you use actually support the millennium. If we look at Rev 11 when the angels announce the kingdom has come and the LORD reigns this world it is a glorious day. Dan 2, 7, speak of the kingdom coming and it covering this entire earth. Dan 2 describes it as a stone cut with out hands descending and crushing and leaving not trace of the image representing mans kingdom and this stone becomes a mountain and covers the earth. Dan 7 and Rev 13 ,19, 20 show the same thing with more detail. The pompous one in Dan 7 and the beast in Rev 13 both are persecuting the saints and Jews for 42 months and are destroyed at the brightness of the coming of the LORD and the kingdom that covers the earth and has no end.
    You seem to imply the judgments rendered in your other referred to scriptures as somehow being incongruent with there being a time of the kingdom being on earth for 1000 years. in 2 Tim the judgement of Jesus at His appearance is associated with the onset of his kingdom. This statement presents a problem for many who think we are already in the kingdom age. Anyways who is judged at this time? Of those left there will those who took the mark of the beast and survived and they will have no chance. Jesus separating the sheep and the goats. Only the sheep are allowed to live and enter into the kingdom. The dead are judged likewise in that the dead in Christ are judged worthy and as Rev 5 says they sang worthy is the Lamb who was slain for he has redeemed us by his blood out of every tribe tongue and nation and we shall rule with him upon the earth. This is something that presents a problem for your view. As those beheaded at the time the mark of the beast was enforced also say they will reign with him for 1000 years on the earth. So now you have two witnesses saying the same thing and you are denying that this is going to happen.
    Your verse in 2 thess affirms the judgement is limited to those alive at the time of the coming of the LORD and two groups are left those who wrath is upon and those who will get rest. it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[fn] because our testimony among you was believed. Again this supports the notion of separating the sheep from the goats.
    The verses in Mathew are exactly that the judgment of the survivors of the tribulation. Jesus was promised to sit on the throne of David. This is the time when is occurs and all the promises for Israel and Jerusalem and all are to take place. I can list 100 or more specific items that are future that all work in the future understanding of the millennial view. Rev says do not ad or take away from the book. You have dismissed the 6 times it mentions the 1000 years and say it does not mean that. This passage clearly relates the beheaded to the 42 months that the beast reigns and enforces the mark of the beast. Those very ones who die in that specific 42 months proclaim they will live and reign with Jesus 1000 years. In Zech 14 of those who are left they must keep the feast of taberacles every year or they get no rain. Jesus is clearly come and the kingdom is now on and this shows a clear continuance of life on this earth. The same with the new river that is created if flows year round. So if this is the end how can the river flow? what is the point of a new valley being created when and described if the earth is no more after the LORD comes.
     
  3. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi jgr,

    I didn`t avoid your question. Yes Jesus identified when He was on earth who His brethren were, - those who do God`s will. Then we come to the context of this discussion which is when Jesus returns, and we find Him judging the nations. The people of Israel are not judged there as they have their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit and receive the Lord their Messiah.

    So it is the Gentile nations that the Lord is judging and the sheep nations who get to live are those who looked after the brethren, the people of Israel who came through the tribulation. And as I`ve said before the other brethren, the Body of Christ is not there, nor has gone through the trib, but in the third heaven.

    Thus the brethren in that context are the people of Israel still on earth.

    Marilyn.
     
  4. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi BABerean,

    In the beginning of the unveiling of the Lord in Revelation we see Him in the midst of the 7 churches. He is the Head of the complete (7) Body of Christ, which He builds and matures over the centuries and across the world.

    Now you do not really read God`s word as to proper context. We see in Zech. 12 - 14 that God is talking about `the day of the Lord.` And that is future. Yes there was a partial fulfilment earlier concerning Israel looking on whom they have pierced but the final fulfilment is to come in the day of the Lord.

    Marilyn.

    Marilyn.
     
  5. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I will throw in another view into the mix as this chapter is one of the most difficult to understand for anyone even scholars. That being said, my non-scholarly view of Zechariah 14 stems from a non-dispensation futurist view.
    I believe most, if not all is pertaining to the events of 70 AD. There are long dissertations about the last few chapters and this oracle can be somewhat explained without the lens of futurism and laid out as a fulfilled prophesy that Jesus Christ of Nazareth spoke of.
    At one time God stood with Israel at the East gate of Jerusalem and in the city, ( Ezekiel 10 ). In Zachariah the prophesy represents God's judgment on apostate Israel so He is outside of the East Gate and on the Mount of Olives and not in Jerusalem. The splitting is a metaphor for the power of the Lord and the valley is the path laid out for the remnant of Israel that fled the destruction.

    Matthew 24:15-25
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
     
  6. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Thank you for that post and I tend to agree.
    Have you had a chance to look at my Luke 21 thread?
    From what I have been noticing is that a lot of Christians, both futurists and preterists, put a 2000 yr gap in Matthew 24/Mark 13 which say much, if not all, of Luke 21 pertains to 70 ad.
    That is not much different than those that put a 2000 yr gap concerning Daniel's 70th week.

    Here is the link to that thread i just created today:

    LUKE 21 Jerusalem Discourse given in the Temple, not Mount of Olives?


    Is Jesus talking about the future destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in 70ad in Luke 21, and all/part of Matthew 24/Mark 13 is still future?
    Or is only part of all 3 fulfilled in 70ad, and part of them still future or all of the 3 discourses are all still future.
    Thanks for any responses.
     
  7. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I will check it out!
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    In Matthew 25:1-13 Jesus said they must be ready before the Bridegroom comes.

    Paul said Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not obey the Gospel, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.


    Do you think Jesus and Paul were wrong?


    .
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi Marilyn,

    Matthew 25
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    All nations includes all peoples, both Jew and Gentile.

    There is no suggestion or implication that Jesus was distinguishing, or will be distinguishing, between Jew and Gentile. He will only be distinguishing between sheep and goat. The sheep will be comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles. The goats will be comprised of unbelieving Jews and Gentiles.

    His definition of brethren here is consistent with that of His original definition.

    Matthew 12
    50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    They are numbered with the sheep.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  10. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi BABerean,

    The Bridegroom is coming to the Bride, Israel.

    The Lord will bring vengeance upon the rebellious - Gentile nations.

    Marilyn.
     
  11. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi jgr,

    Ekklesia - means called out ones.

    Israel is called out of the nations.
    The Body of Christ is called out of Israel and the nations.

    Neither are ever mentioned as the nations. Thus they are NOT included in the nations.

    Marilyn.
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi Marilyn,

    Acts 10:35
    But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    The God-fearing and righteous are in every nation. They are included in every nation.


    Romans 1:5
    By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

    We His Church are among all nations. We are included in every nation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    No, it was on the rebellious Israelite Jews in the 1st century Judea and Israel.........Stick with the 1st century and you can't go wrong........

    I believe this passage in Isaiah 1 is speaking of the future 1st century rulers and rebels:

    Isa 1:
    23 Your rulers are rebels, partners with thieves; they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless; the widow’s case does not come before them.
    28 Zion will be delivered with justice, her penitent ones with righteousness.
    28 But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.

    This is interesting.......There were 4 sects in and around Judea:

    Zealots - Wikipedia

    Josephus' Jewish Antiquities[3] states that there were three main Jewish sects at this time, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes.

    The Zealots were a "fourth sect", founded by Judas of Galilee (also called Judas of Gamala) in the year 6 CE against Quirinius' tax reform, shortly after the Roman Empire declared what had most recently been the tetrarchy of Herod Archelaus to be a Roman province, and that they "agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord." (18.1.6)
    ========
    Interestingly also, Judas the Galilean is mentioned in Acts. Fascinating!

    Acts :5
    35He said to them, "You men of Israel, be careful concerning these men, what you are about to do. 36For before these days Theudas rose up, making himself out to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were dispersed, and came to nothing. 37After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the enrollment, and drew away some people after him. He also perished, and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered abroad.

    38Now I tell you, withdraw from these men, and leave them alone. For if this counsel or this work is of men, it will be overthrown. 39But if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow it, and you would be found even to be fighting against God!"
    ==============================
    Josephus mentioned factions of criminals and robbers scourging Jerusalem before Titus and the Roman army showed up:

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury.
    The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example. Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, "

    Isa 1:
    23 Your rulers are rebels, partners with thieves; they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless; the widow’s case does not come before them.
    28 Zion will be delivered with justice, her penitent ones with righteousness.
    28 But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.

    ...................
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
    Mat 25:2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    Mat 25:3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
    Mat 25:4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
    Mat 25:5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
    Mat 25:6 "And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'
    Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
    Mat 25:8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
    Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.'
    Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
    Mat 25:11 "Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!'
    Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
    Mat 25:13 "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

    .
     
  15. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi jgr,

    Yes Peter was realising that not only the Jews but the Gentiles who are God-fearing and righteous are accepted by God. We also know that with those of Israel who are in the Body of Christ, together with the Gentiles become one new man, a new group, separate from Israel and separate from the Gentile nations.

    Then the Apostle Paul was telling the Romans that they had received grace and apostleship, for the obedience to the faith among the nations (Gentiles) for His name, among whom you are the CALLED of Jesus Christ. He confirms this calling to the Gentiles in his letter to the Galatians. (Gal. 2: 9)

    This is saying that Paul is called to preach to the Gentiles. It does not say that the Body of Christ is still of the nations. The Body of Christ is the new man, as Paul tells the Galatians, `There is neither Jew nor Greek, (Gentile) etc...` (Gal. 3: 28)

    Yes we are living among the nations, BUT we are not the nations, we are the Body of Christ a completely different group.

    Marilyn.
     
  16. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi jgr,

    Following on with my last post I would like address this more.

    At the judgment of the nations the Body of Christ will NOT be there. They are not judged as the Lord took our punishment. They are registered in heaven. (Heb. 12: 23)

    The sheep are certainly NOT believing Jews and Gentiles. The only criteria is that they the sheep looked after ANOTHER GROUP. These are the ones the Lord asked the angel to `measure.` The Jews who truly worship God. (Rev. 11: 1)

    The sheep didn`t even know why they were allowed to go into the millennial kingdom, they had to ask. It was their good works to the Jews that will allow them entrance into the kingdom promised to Israel.


    Marilyn.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  17. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi BABerean,

    We see that the Lord is talking to the people of Israel who are partially blinded, thus they will not know when the Lord comes to them.

    However the Lord tells His Body that they will know and see the day of the Lord coming as they are not in darkness that this day should overtake them as a thief. (1 Thess. 5:4)

    We need to know who is talking to whom.

    Marilyn.
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi Marilyn,

    All believers (sheep) and unbelievers (goats) will be present at the judgment at the end of the world, with the dead, both good and evil, being resurrected in the same hour:


    Romans 14
    10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 5
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Acts 24
    15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    John 5
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Matthew 13
    49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


    The sheep will already be aware well in advance of their eternal destiny, having read Matthew 25.

     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
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  19. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Your view is that Revelation involves the entire planet being destroyed/remade?

    Not sure how you can come to that conclusion, when Revelation clearly shows a Country, City and People being destroyed.
    The Jerusalem/Temple discourse is about Judea and Jerusalem:

    LUKE 21 Jerusalem Discourse given in the Temple, not Mount of Olives?

    Luke 21:20
    Whenever yet may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops,
    then be knowing that come nigh<1448>the desolating<2050> of Her


    Revelation 18
    4 And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, ‘Come forth out of her, My people, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues,

    19 and they did cast dust upon their heads, and were crying out, weeping and sorrowing, saying, Woe, woe, the great City! in which were made rich all having ships in the sea, out of her costliness —

    for in one hour was She was desolated<2049>
    Matthew 24:37
    Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee,....

    Behold! left desolate to you is your house;
    Luke 13:34
    Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that is killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto her......

    35 ‘Behold! your house is being left to you desolate,
    ===============================
    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
    History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived................

    ===========================

    .............



    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I am looking at the whole Bible, instead of trying to make the entire Book of Revelation about 70 AD.


    Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


    When do you think Acts of the Apostles 1:11 will be fulfilled, or do you think it happened during 70 AD?

    .


     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
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