Yu-Gi-Oh Cards and the like...

[straightforward]

We did sit down and look at the cards last night. We decided the darker cards could be done away with. Our oldest said he could play without them. The weird part is...when we ask our kids (2 of which are into them) what they like about this game...they don't know. I mainly started this whole 'investigation' so I could weigh these cards and their potential good and bad. I need both sides to do that. I also want to teach my kids how to do the same thing. Seebs...when we err on the side of protecting we might make a mistake by not showing the kids the 'other side of the tapestry' (so to speak). They need to see how we make the decisions so when we are gone...which will happen whether we like it or not...they will know how to make healthy decisions. I don't like the herd mentality I see in alot of kids. Which is why I asked the question in my first post...What would Jesus think of this game? That's how I weigh things and it is how I am trying to teach my kids to weigh things. As far as Pokemon...it was somewhat annoying (but who doesn't think Pikachu is cute?) but it is set apart from our world in alot of ways. I don't see the relationships alot of people do to the occult in this show. And there weren't really any horrible cards in it. I'm strict but I try not to see something in nothing. Looking at these cards some of them are up for debate. They definatly promote the use of "dark powers".
If, as someone wrote earlier, these kids might be too young to talk to about real dark powers why put something in front of them that says it's ok to play with what are "called" dark powers?
I do talk to my kids about the "real" dark things in this world and I warn them about them. I would not be doing my job as a parent if I didn't. I have them going down the right road and I know the dark powers will put any obstacle in the way that they can. I need to make sure that I am not making it easier for these things to get a foot in the door.

 

[Beckijhn]

hmmm.. I think we all have a different idea about what 'protecting' is. I would still not allow these games in my home but I also see the spiritual world as an active part of life. Everything is spiritual it is either for God or against him. (if it doesn't promote your relationship with him it is taking your mind/time/devotion from him)

When we protect our children we actively prepare them for the future. We show them both sides and set the boundaries to keep them within the area of safety and gradually train them to make their own decisions. If it were something like this (or ouiji boards, or whatever) I would make the call and explain why allowing them to form their own opinions but knowing that my word is law until they can make their own choices. It's worked well so far.

As for not knowing the realities and what they would do without me... well my children know what the real world is like and actively counsel, work with and pray for those who are facing issues that are harsh. My oldest (14) is mentoring a 12yo girl who's mom is a drug addict and who is cut loose to fend for herself, she heads up a prayer chain and is on the prayer team praying over teens with spiritual needs. She's seen more in 14 years than most see/deal with in 30. My younger two are following suit and though I would not want to leave them on this earth without me, I am secure in their relationship with Christ, their strong character, and their ability to lean on Him in times of need!

Just because the kids don't have a grasp on what is spiritually underlying in games that play with dark powers and anything spiritual that is not of God, doesn't mean that the spiritual world and the dark powers don't have a reality of who they are.

 

[Caedmon]

Today at 01:14 PM Beckijhn said this in Post #22

hmmm.. I think we all have a different idea about what 'protecting' is. I would still not allow these games in my home but I also see the spiritual world as an active part of life. Everything is spiritual it is either for God or against him. (if it doesn't promote your relationship with him it is taking your mind/time/devotion from him)

Does "Go Fish" bring a person closer to or farther from God? Isn't the "fix" of that game to relish in causing your opponent anguish? How about Monopoly? Does that game promote greed and jealousy?

When we protect our children we actively prepare them for the future. We show them both sides and set the boundaries to keep them within the area of safety and gradually train them to make their own decisions. If it were something like this (or ouiji boards, or whatever) I would make the call and explain why allowing them to form their own opinions but knowing that my word is law until they can make their own choices. It's worked well so far.

Ouija boards are a far cry from these card games. These card games are not tools of divination/necromancy. Tarot cards are used for that purpose. These games are no more a means for telling the future or contacting the spirit world than a game of "War".

As for not knowing the realities and what they would do without me... well my children know what the real world is like and actively counsel, work with and pray for those who are facing issues that are harsh. My oldest (14) is mentoring a 12yo girl who's mom is a drug addict and who is cut loose to fend for herself, she heads up a prayer chain and is on the prayer team praying over teens with spiritual needs. She's seen more in 14 years than most see/deal with in 30. My younger two are following suit and though I would not want to leave them on this earth without me, I am secure in their relationship with Christ, their strong character, and their ability to lean on Him in times of need!

If I may ask, what does this have to do with card games? I fail to see a direct association. But if you're talking about differentiating between reality and fantasy... if you are so sure of your children's ability to know reality from fantasy, why do you not trust their judgment in this matter? And by virtue of saying your children know about reality, would that not therefore imply that you would consider some forms of fantasy as acceptable and managable? Why not let them participate in fantastic outlets for their imagination?

Just because the kids don't have a grasp on what is spiritually underlying in games that play with dark powers and anything spiritual that is not of God, doesn't mean that the spiritual world and the dark powers don't have a reality of who they are.

But you just said that your children "know what the real world is like". And by virtue of your statement -- "what is spiritually underlying in games that play with dark powers" -- you have already passed judgment without debate. You have found something that appears to be "evil", and you have automatically classified it as such, in knee-jerk reaction. My mother has drawn similar conclusions concerning Catholicism, and in the same fashion. Avoiding critical analysis and running from something out of "gut reaction" does not make for solid argumentative reasoning, and most likely will cause problems when discussing these things with children. When your children ask you why they can't play these games, a mere "it's evil" will eventually lose its effect, and in fact could eventually entice them toward the games.

 

[Susan]

Great post hj. -^.^-

 

[Evening Mist]

Okay, I think these games, etc. are harmless from a spiritual POV. I have reservations from a money/time/gimee-gimmee perspective, and because there do seem to be more worthwhile things in life to invest time and energy into. But I respect the fact that some parents feel differently than I do, and respect their right to keep such things out of their homes for whatever reasons.

My parents taught me that D&D was evil and dangerous, mostly because they didn't know anything about it. I think differently now being married to someone who is kind of into it, but I really don't feel like I missed out on anything either. So, I didn't get to play D&D when I was a kid -- oh well. I'll live. I don't care, and I don't feel one single bit deprived.

As far as I'm concerned, parents should censor what they are uncomfortable with - and should not have to justify themselves to anyone else. There is SO much critisism of parents everywhere -- no matter what you do, someone will tell you how badly you are screwing up. Games and toys seem like a silly thing to critisize a parent for censoring. Their kids will not be deprived because they are not allowed to collect magic cards.

OTOH -- I do see a real danger in teaching children judgementalism. Kids should learn that different families have different rules, and it doesn't mean other families are "bad" because they draw the line at a different place. I think respecting differences in this area is WAY more important than allowing or not allowing the stuff in the first place.

 

[Susan]

OTOH -- I do see a real danger in teaching children judgementalism. Kids should learn that different families have different rules, and it doesn't mean other families are "bad" because they draw the line at a different place. I think respecting differences in this area is WAY more important than allowing or not allowing the stuff in the first place.

I totally agree. Also, I'm personally very offended at the people that use their *rules* to ascribe evil motives or sins to those who disagree with their stance on anime and/or RPGs.

I'm not saying straightforward or Beckijhn or anyone else does this, but when people accuse me of worshipping another god according to Deuteronomy 18, of trying to corrupt people, of not discerning "dark forces" behind whatever, of watching pr0n, or whatever the accuse du jour is, I feel insulted, because someone has personally judged both my conduct and me with a false judgment.

The judgment is false since I worship the Christian God, the God of the Bible, through faith in Jesus His only begotten Son, I don't want to corrupt anyone, I know the difference between fictional stories and spiritual realities, and I hate pr0n with every fiber of my being.



A comparison would be if you disagreed with your neighbor on where a boundary fence is supposed to be drawn, because you believe a tree to be within your property, but your neighbor believes it to be her property. Now neither of you intend any evil or wrongdoing, yet your neighbor goes all-out to declare that you're a thief and a liar who also bears a grudge against her. She tells all of your friends this, she gets on the phone to the most gossipy people she knows, and finally starts a website called myneighborisathiefandliar.to. You know you aren't a thief and liar, you have legitimate evidence that you are not, yet this person takes her case everywhere proclaiming you to be this monster of a human being and your actions to be the works of the devil himself.

 

[PastorFreud]

I suppose I am dreadfully entrenched in the belief that there is no spiritual reality attached to the cards. Presuming that evil spirits exist and function in a way that many people seem to believe, why would evil spirits be interested in card games? I would think evil spirits would be blinding people to the realities of war, especially unjust war. I would think evil spirits would be working to get people to hate and murder and steal and kill. Sure, some kids might believe that owning a card empowers them in some way--that's what the card manufacturer might hope for. But is it the card? Others might do it with crystals.

I am more concerned with evil spirits attached to firearms and switchblade knifes, and missiles, and people in positions to wield great destructive power. The only people I have ever seen that claim these card games etc. ruined their lives are people now hawking a new product themselves or hawking their testimony to gain popularity.

 

[Caedmon]

I just wanted to say that I'm not a parent, and that I'm just giving my personal convictions on this topic. I respect every parent's right to raise their children in the way that they see fit in order to most fully care for their well-being.

 

[Talmid HaYarok]

That was an excellent post PastorFreud, I think I need to save that or something.

Don't worry, I'll reference you. 

 

[Susan]

Today at 04:41 PM PastorFreud said this in Post #27

I suppose I am dreadfully entrenched in the belief that there is no spiritual reality attached to the cards. Presuming that evil spirits exist and function in a way that many people seem to believe, why would evil spirits be interested in card games? I would think evil spirits would be blinding people to the realities of war, especially unjust war. I would think evil spirits would be working to get people to hate and murder and steal and kill. Sure, some kids might believe that owning a card empowers them in some way--that's what the card manufacturer might hope for. But is it the card? Others might do it with crystals.

I am more concerned with evil spirits attached to firearms and switchblade knifes, and missiles, and people in positions to wield great destructive power. The only people I have ever seen that claim these card games etc. ruined their lives are people now hawking a new product themselves or hawking their testimony to gain popularity.

Good post. And I must say, it is absolutely amazing that Christians who would slam works of total fiction for being violent would wholeheartedly support a real-life war.

 

[Evening Mist]

Susan, I happen to agree with you, and I also find it frustrating to hear things that I care about being critisized.

However, I don't think this thread was intended to be a debate as much as a conversation about how to evaluate things on behalf of our children. I honestly don't think anyone is judging you personally regarding these games. You get to decide what is fine for you -- not me or anyone else. But *we* have to decide this stuff for our kids, which is a harder job.

I agree with PF's post -- I don't think these cards are demonic by any stretch. If my son wants to collect them someday then I probably don't care, as long as he uses his own money. But there are plenty of toys, games, and TV shows that I restrict and I *do* get an earfull from people who like those things.

For instance, I will NOT have toy guns in my house. I don't have anything against the toy gun itself, and I could care less whether or not my neighbor's kids play with toy guns. Plenty of people disagree with me. My younger brother, for instance, plays paint-ball with fake guns and I am by no means passing judgement on him or his activiteis. But I still DO NOT want toy guns in my kid's hands. I will not permit the sort of play and general attititudes that I feel concerned it might lead to.

Other parents are very concerned about the sort of play and general attitudes that magic cards might lead to. I don't have to agree with their concerns to support and respect their decisions.

 

[Evening Mist]

OTOH – I really do worry about judgmental attitudes. – Not toward toys and games – but toward other children. When I was little my aunt bought me this bright pink t-shirt with sequins and a unicorn on it. My parents didn’t have money for clothes, so mostly I had to wear homemade dresses and hand-me-down overalls/flannel shirts from a neighbor boy. In my little girl sense for these things, I thought my gaudy new shirt was the most gloriously beautiful thing I had ever owned. I wore it to Sunday School one week, and my teacher singled me out of 20 kids, made me stand up in front of my peers, and went into a tirade about how “the unicorn is a symbol of the Devil.” I was sent out of Sunday school and warned that I could never wear that shirt again. It was humiliating and heartbreaking. To an eight-year-old girl – that shirt was completely innocent. I don’t care one bit whether that teacher thinks unicorns are satanic, and I don’t care if he censors them in his family. But how he treated me that day was completely unacceptable. His attitude did more damage than any picture of a unicorn ever did.

So, I think when we make these evolutions for and with our kids, we *do* need to be careful about how they and we interact with other children regarding the issue.

 

[straightforward]

I am trying to approach this in a moderate way...otherwise I would have just thrown the cards out! I want to work through this with my kids. If I am totally ignorant of anything having to do with these cards...I'm not helping anyone. How can I talk to my kids about them if I don't know anything about them? I need to be able to talk to them. If I just say...throw them out...what do my kids learn? They just think I'm a dictator who doesn't know anything about the cards. If I just say they are harmless...go play...I'm not teaching them anything and I'm being neglegent. I detest ignorance and I don't think it's an excuse. My kids respond to me when I know what I'm talking about. I want to be someone they can come to when they need help. In a world where my role is being dumbed down, and I'm "supposed" to be ignorant because that's what parents are painted as, I need to show them God...not as the supreme dictator of our lives but as the one who is always Just, Loving, and Truth!
I guess, in all, I'm not on this board to justify myself but to inform myself so I can really talk to these kids about this. I might not use it as a war...but I might use it as an example. They will be able to look back at this some day when they are not sure if they can talk to me about something and know that I can look at things with a level head.
We are told in the bible to weigh all things. If Go Fish were calling on "dark powers" to catch the fish...I might be concerned. I'm not concerned that they are going to think that they can become demon masters or something. My mom wasn't concerned when I started reading the horoscopes in the paper or when I started wasting my money on those little horoscope scrolls. She would have been concerned if she could have seen the wheels in my head turning when Christians all around me said that the bible said I shouldn't read those things. They were harmless...therefore the Christians must be wrong. If they were wrong about that they were wrong about other things. I was sure they were wrong about tarot cards when I started playing with them...I could get useful information out of them. I could thrill and amaze people when I read them their spread. It was not about power though. (I was told that the power behind these cards was coming from my own subconcious...not evil powers.) I had been set up. It was subtle...but it was deceit. The enemy worked his way into my thoughts and twisted things around till, by the end of it, I was on the other side of all of those "fanatical" Christians who were trusting in a book full of lies. If it were as easy as guns and knives we wouldn't have very much of an enemy or a struggle against him. (God uses truth...the enemy uses truth twisted!)
I don't know where it is...maybe someone could help me out here...I keep thinking about a verse in Isaiah where it says something about a time when sour will be called sweet and evil will be called good. In alot of ways it's all about that...twisted perception. It could take us back to the garden...what harm could one stupid apple really do?
BTW...main point in referencing Deuteronomy: "When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations." He goes on to talk about things including divination, witchcraft, interpreting omens, sorcerers, casting spells, mediums, and calling up the dead! (In my bible the word imitate would literally translate into 'do according to'.) It continues, "For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. You shall be blameless (Lit.: complete, perfect; or having integrity) before the Lord your God. For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so."
I don't think these cards are the equal to these things and I don't think the cards have some evil power to them for real. But I have a responsibility to weigh these cards against the word. If you ask me to weigh Go Fish against Gods word...should we go back and see how many fishermen we can find in the bible?????

 

[Talmid HaYarok]

The best source for information about the cards is going to be your own kids. More importantly by getting it directly from them you'll see exactly what kind of effect it is having on their heart.

Be careful with the questions though, the kids are going to be suspicious of you already because you objected previously. They might be afraid that you're just looking for an excuse to take the toys away from them than genuinely learning about it. If they are too distrusting to answer your questions about it then try comparing and contrasting it to another game. Poker is a card game too for instance.

 

[Beckijhn]

Hey Humble - I don't think "Go Fish" is evil In fact it is a favorite around here. It is also a far cry from playing with 'power'. I don't know about monopoly - aside from being LONG and BORING it does have a plus side of teaching economics and usually brings home the proverb "neither a borrower nor lender be". The Bible has more references to money and the handling of money than any other subject. You can make it a lesson on love and charity, godly principles, and being a good Christian as well as sound investments. (being a good steward)

What my children would do without me had more to do with comments of over-protection and references to what children will do when we (parents) are gone - as it will happen sooner or later. I think the point was something along the lines of my (and other "over-protected" kids) not being able to face issues or deal with 'real-life' when I'm dead.

I've stated that my children know what this world is like - if you'd read all the posts you would understand where I'm coming from. I'm a homeschool parent. I protect my kids from the influence of ungodly people and belief systems (as much as I can) teaching them about them without allowing indoctrination of them,. and in response I heard that kids have to face life and reality eventually - implying that I'm doing my children a disservice by protection. Maybe I infered too deep a meaning but the underlying tone is there.

I do trust their judgement - on the level they are at. You don't put a dozen chocolate chip cookies in front of a 3 year old and trust their judgement on how many they can have. Being a parent means teaching your children to make those decisions. When I taught the kids to do their chores I walked beside them and did them first - showing them, gradually they began to help - I was guiding them. Now they do it on their own.

What does "by virtue of saying your children know about reality, would that not therefore imply that you would consider some forms of fantasy as acceptable and managable?" mean? That because they know reality, fantasy play is okay? It's a stretch to go from my implication to your inference. That has a very liberal/college-debate-talk-in-circles edge to it.

My children have a great time using their imaginations! They write plays, create towns, story lines, creatures (legos, crafts, computer) they don't need a ready-made card game to utilize their imaginative abilities, in fact I would believe that it would stifle true imagination.

God tells us to avoid the appearance of evil and to flee from evil. I don't know your age or parental experience, but I've lived through more than a few D&D card games gone bad and learned to trust my 'gut reaction'.

In all reality I could say 'it's evil' and my children would be the last to WANT to pick it up because in raising my children I've walked with them and taught them and they KNOW they can trust my judgement. But I don't ever leave any question like this with a 'because I said so' answer. I see it as a way of teaching them and usually ask them to research it with me.

So your knee-jerk reaction to my comments would appear to have led you to making a 'gut reaction' judgement of my opinion on this matter.

I don't care if you play or if your kids play or if my neighbors kids play. It does not matter but it won't enter my home. (If it did it would quickly meet my favorite pair of scissors)

"This isn't a democracy but a benevolent dictatorship!" - Pastor Chuck Ryan

Well now that the feathers are ruffled, have a blessed day!

 

[seebs]

Uh, "D&D Card Games"? Could you name one? I don't think I've ever seen anything which was both a card game and D&D.

I've also never seen a single substantiated claim of D&D "going bad". 99% of the time, it comes down to a retelling of Pat Pulling's story, and while I feel for her loss, gaming was not part of it.

 

[seebs]

Yesterday at 11:32 AM straightforward said this in Post #21
Seebs...when we err on the side of protecting we might make a mistake by not showing the kids the 'other side of the tapestry' (so to speak). They need to see how we make the decisions so when we are gone...which will happen whether we like it or not...they will know how to make healthy decisions. I don't like the herd mentality I see in alot of kids. Which is why I asked the question in my first post...What would Jesus think of this game?

I agree with that part, actually.

If, as someone wrote earlier, these kids might be too young to talk to about real dark powers why put something in front of them that says it's ok to play with what are "called" dark powers?
I do talk to my kids about the "real" dark things in this world and I warn them about them. I would not be doing my job as a parent if I didn't. I have them going down the right road and I know the dark powers will put any obstacle in the way that they can. I need to make sure that I am not making it easier for these things to get a foot in the door.

My policy on games (and admittedly, I'm not a parent, but I already sort of have a plan here) is that the kids will always play the heroes, not the villains, but that doesn't mean villains can't do evil things; after all, that's what makes them villains. One of my pet peeves is when kids' games have really fake villains that aren't really evil in the first place; it seems to miss the point of the word.

 

[seebs]

Yesterday at 01:14 PM Beckijhn said this in Post #22

hmmm.. I think we all have a different idea about what 'protecting' is. I would still not allow these games in my home but I also see the spiritual world as an active part of life. Everything is spiritual it is either for God or against him. (if it doesn't promote your relationship with him it is taking your mind/time/devotion from him)

I think this is partially true, but can easily be taken waayyyyy too far.

Does spaghetti promote my relationship with God? If not, should I eat it? What *should* I eat? Certainly not "nothing but communion wafers".

If I never do anything but pray, praying becomes meaningless; there's nothing set apart for God, and I run out of things to talk about. Other activities, such as writing, or playing games, or just holding down a job, provide the context in which I experience His creation. I think He understands that.

 

[Susan]

Yesterday at 08:55 PM seebs said this in Post #38



I think this is partially true, but can easily be taken waayyyyy too far.

Does spaghetti promote my relationship with God? If not, should I eat it? What *should* I eat? Certainly not "nothing but communion wafers".

If I never do anything but pray, praying becomes meaningless; there's nothing set apart for God, and I run out of things to talk about. Other activities, such as writing, or playing games, or just holding down a job, provide the context in which I experience His creation. I think He understands that.

Good post.

 

[straightforward]

Yesterday at 02:30 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #34
Be careful with the questions though, the kids are going to be suspicious of you already because you objected previously. They might be afraid that you're just looking for an excuse to take the toys away from them than genuinely learning about it.

I never objected to it outright...I was trying to weigh it out...with their help.

 

   I still haven't heard anything, from all of you who feel this game is harmless, about the Deut. verses I posted earlier.

  Let's throw this in as to how we weigh what God thinks about "pretending" vs really doing: Matt. 5:28...I know it has to do with adultery but I think it might give us some insight into a higher reality...what we think is what we do. Would that mean pretending it is just as bad as doing it?