Y'shua and the Nazarite Vow

[iitb]

Okay, I've recently signed up for the First Fruits of Zion Torah club. They started me on the written material with next week's Parsha, but the audio disks included this week's, which is where my question comes from.

In listing the various Nazarites, they included Y'shua, based on the following (I'm including both the Matthew and Mark versions, with the verse in question bolded. Gotta keep the context )

Matthew 26:26-35
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."
27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
30 After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
31 Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.'
32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee."
33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."
34 Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."
35 Peter said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." All the disciples said the same thing too.

Mark 14:22-31
22 While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is My body."
23 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
25 "Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."
26 After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
27 And Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away, because it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED.'
28 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee."
29 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away, yet I will not."
30 And Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you, that this very night, before a rooster crows twice, you yourself will deny Me three times."
31 But Peter kept saying insistently, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!" And they all were saying the same thing also.

My questions concern Matthew 26:29 and Mark 14:25.
A) Do you think this qualifies as a Nazarite vow?
B) Why or why not.

I honestly don't have an answer for this, nor do I entirely understand the vow, I'm just curious to see what you all think.

 

[Henaynei]

Sorry - this doesn't wash with me -

1) one does not say a vow/blessing without following through - when a person says a blessing over any action they are saying that blessing for themselves, and we the listeners, should we also want to participate in the action/blessing, affirm the blessing for ourselves by saying "Omeyn." This is why the "blesser" does not say Omeyn to blessings they have said.

Therefore, Yeshua would not have said a blessing over the wine unless He also drank of it.

Also, He was making a covenant "in the wine." That covenant would be unratified if He had not drank the wine.... Study blood covenants..... the "blood" is mixed with the wine and all parties drink to ratify.......

2) He said "never again" AFTER having drunk the wine of the covenant. He was essentially saying "I ain't gonna be around for lunch guys...." (the next meal [assuming they did not drink wine at b-fast] when wine would naturally be served).

I'm sure there will be plenty of folks taking pot shots at MHO - LOL

 

[Hix]

I honestly have to say that you should take alot of the stuff from FFOZ's Torah Club with a grain of salt achi. I have a great amount of respect for Moshe ben Shia but this is an example how alot of its ideals are often contrived. There is no real evidence to suggest Yeshua was under a nazarite vow, as Hen said he literally WOULDNT be around to drink wine with his Talmidim again untill of cource he returns in the Messianic Age.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[Sephania]

Would'nt his blood shed on the tree a few hours later ratify this covenant? They were given the symbol, the third cup and given the true meaning of it, but he said that he wouldn't drink the next one until the new kingdom.

 

[Sephania]

Actually I just noticed something, not sure if there is anything to it but

26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."
27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;

The bread he blessed, the cup he gave thanks, now my understanding is that you don't bless the food, for G-d has already done that at creation and he said it was Tov, but instead you bless the L-RD for what he has provided ...Baruch atta Adonai.........

I have been taught that you say a prayer of thanks after the meal for all he has provided. So it there some meaning in this or has this narative been Christianized?

 

[WildCelt]

I have been in the FFOZ "club" for about a year now, and have found that even when they address something even remotely controversial, that they give a disclaimer that their view is speculation, and that people need to make up their own minds. If you call that being contrived, well I guess many ideas presented even here are likewise "contrived" (although I don't always see disclaimers here )

I think all the material I have read from them has been great, and I would recommend them to anyone.

BTW, justinhulsey, what volume are you reading?

 

[iitb]

BTW, justinhulsey, what volume are you reading?

I just started volume 1.

 

[rbaker7385]

Erin If you can't find the pic of you and Zvi Kalisher I will e-mail you the one you sent me. I also got to meet Zvi in 1990 at Friends of Israel at his son's graduation.

 

[Henaynei]

Actually I just noticed something, not sure if there is anything to it but


The bread he blessed, the cup he gave thanks, now my understanding is that you don't bless the food, for G-d has already done that at creation and he said it was Tov, but instead you bless the L-RD for what he has provided ...Baruch atta Adonai.........

I have been taught that you say a prayer of thanks after the meal for all he has provided. So it there some meaning in this or has this narative been Christianized?

Literally "He made a B'rakha" - He made a blessing - The HaMotzi and the HasGafen are called blessings or b'rakhot - it is most likely a gloss from the cultural view point and understanding of the translators.....

 

[insaneinthebrain]

Okay, I'm bumping an 8 month old thread of mine, but that's because I found an article by one of the FFOZ guys going into a little more detail on this:
http://www.what-if.net/cgi-bin/bethimmanuel/articles/newsscript.pl?record=9

 

[Shimshon]

Awesome page achi!! Todah

 

[visionary]

Taking on that special vow of separation is an unique thing to consider. Everything we are to find Yeshua, for His shadow is to be found in it all. Yeshua has been separated from us since He left. Though He has promised us a comforter, He also promised to return.

Psalm 65:1
Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.

At the end of the Nazarite vow, they are to show themselves at the door of the tabernacle. Please notice this is one vow both sexes can take. This is also a voluntary vow, but it is not required.

Numbers 6:1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: 3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. 4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk. 5 All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow. 6 All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body.[No ressurecting dead for Yeshua during this time] ....13 And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: ... 21 This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

"he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation" brought me to mind another time when Yeshua is represented in the fall feasts as being brought unto the tabernacle of the congregation.

First we are called, made part of the great incestial ingathering at Mount Sion. I think that it was a special consecration vow that early believers took.

Acts 18:18
And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.

Even Gentiles were talking the vow and this group was taking the vow with Paul.

Acts 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.... 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. 27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. 29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.) 30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

Not that Jews of Asia had any right to cry foul.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Take a look at the timing that we are to gather the congregation at the door of the tabernacle.

Numbers 10:2-3 Make two silver trumpets for yourself; you shall make them of hammered work; you shall use them for calling the congregation and for directing the movement of the camps. When they blow both of them, all the congregation shall gather before you at the door of the tabernacle of meeting.

Now let’s go back to the temple to see what else the Lord will do on the Day of Atonement.

Lev 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

When Yeshua is finished with His vow of separation, he will come to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. On earth we could also have another door of the tabernacle that Satan will present himself before the congregation.

Back to the vow... Are we not going to take the vow of purity with Him?

Revelation 15:44 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. 5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

After the atonement services are over, there is a consecration service for the new ministers of God.

Lev 16 :32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments: 33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation. 34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year.

In Revelation where those that have overcome become the priests in the Temple of God.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Leviticus 8:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Take Aaron and his sons with him, and the garments, and the anointing oil, and a bullock for the sin offering, and two rams, and a basket of unleavened bread; 3 And gather thou all the congregation together unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 4 And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; and the assembly was gathered together unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 5 And Moses said unto the congregation, This is the thing which the LORD commanded to be done. 6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water. 7 And he put upon him the coat, and girded him with the girdle, and clothed him with the robe, and put the ephod upon him, and he girded him with the curious girdle of the ephod, and bound it unto him therewith. 8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim. 9 And he put the mitre upon his head; also upon the mitre, even upon his forefront, did he put the golden plate, the holy crown; as the LORD commanded Moses. 10 And Moses took the anointing oil, and anointed the tabernacle and all that was therein, and sanctified them. 11 And he sprinkled thereof upon the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all his vessels, both the laver and his foot, to sanctify them. 12 And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and anointed him, to sanctify him. 13 And Moses brought Aaron's sons, and put coats upon them, and girded them with girdles, and put bonnets upon them; as the LORD commanded Moses. ..... 33 And ye shall not go out of the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in seven days, until the days of your consecration be at an end: for seven days shall he consecrate you. 34 As he hath done this day, so the LORD hath commanded to do, to make an atonement for you. 35 Therefore shall ye abide at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation day and night seven days, and keep the charge of the LORD, that ye die not: for so I am commanded. 36 So Aaron and his sons did all things which the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.

Exodus 29:42
This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD: where I will meet you, to speak there unto thee.

Now be fore you say it, I can understand the outcry, "you can not mix the Day of Atonement with the Nazarite Vow". But would not the Nazarite Vow have to end before the Day of Atonement starts? Does not the Nazarite vow end at the door of the tabernacle where the Day of Atonement starts?

 

[Shimshon]

Visionary, I always like your drasha's but I noticed one thing that stood out at me and I looked back.

27 The seven days were almost up when some unbelieving Jews from the province of Asia saw him in the Temple, stirred up all the crowd and grabbed him. 28 "Men of Isra'el, help!" they shouted. "This is the man who goes everywhere teaching everyone things against the people, against the Torah and against this place!

(funny how "unbelieving" Jews were so upset about someone teaching everyone things they themselves didn't "believe" in the first place)

And now he has even brought some Goyim into the Temple and defiled this holy place!" 29 (They had previously seen Trophimus from Ephesus in the city with him and assumed that Sha'ul had brought him into the Temple.)

Like Zayit identifed in accord with Stephen. This was an accusation, not the truth. These Jews had seen them with Shaul "AND ASSUMED" that he has brought them into the Temple. So they started a riot that wound Shaul in front of the Emperor of Rome. The Will of Elohim.

30 The whole city was aroused, and people came running from all over. They seized Sha'ul and dragged him out of the Temple, and at once the gates were shut. 31 But while they were attempting to kill him, word reached the commander of the Roman battalion that all Yerushalayim was in turmoil.

Were is the stoning of the Goyim who entered as well? Why no mention after the "accusation" of them at all? It was a lie. The men who had taken the vow along with him, were like him. Jewish. They were taking a "Jewish" Nazirite vow. Only Jews entered the Temple for purification. Not the Goyim. If this had actually happend they would have been just in there accusations. But these were "unbelieving" Jew who sought to undermine him at any cost. Even to death.

 

[Nossa-the-Lame]

I have a question, I thought we were not to shave our beards or the hair at the sides of our head? If so then wouldn't the nazarite vow kinda contradict this law?

 

[Shimshon]

Nossa, no. This verse

Vayikra
19:27 Don't round your hair at the temples or mar the edges of your beard.


is in reference to being like the goyim/pagan. It does not contradict the Nazirite vow, nor the mitzvah dealing with Tzarat. For Tzarat you would have to shave everything, eyebrows and beard included. And as you noted, the Nazirite vow includes shaving of your "head". It does not distinguish between beard and brows. Just head.

So, this verse about maring your beard or rounding your hair is in reference to what the Goyim were doing. And we were instructed NOT to be like them or do what they do.

b,shalom
shimshon

 

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Nossa, no. This verse

Vayikra
19:27 Don't round your hair at the temples or mar the edges of your beard.


is in reference to being like the goyim/pagan. It does not contradict the Nazirite vow, nor the mitzvah dealing with Tzarat. For Tzarat you would have to shave everything, eyebrows and beard included. And as you noted, the Nazirite vow includes shaving of your "head". It does not distinguish between beard and brows. Just head.

So, this verse about maring your beard or rounding your hair is in reference to what the Goyim were doing. And we were instructed NOT to be like them or do what they do.

b,shalom
shimshon

Ok, thanks Shimshon, but can you go into more details about the Tzarat and what you mean by not being like the Goyim in this means? What di the Goyim exactly do again? And also, what constitues as your "head"?

Toda,
NTL

 

[Shimshon]

Tzarat is leprosy. Part of the mitzvah was to not only shave your head but the eyebrows and beard were specifically mentioned in this mitzvah. My thinking is because it was a contractable disease and thus part of the purification is the removal of all that is effected. The hair is effected by turning white. If this happens you have leprosy and need to go through the mitzvot of purfication, one of which is the removing of ALL headly hair.

In reference to the maring and rounding. It's like saying, don't wear peircings or tats like the goyishim do. Don't be like them.

Today if I shave my head people only consider the top. The reason I think the beard and brows were mentioned I stated above.

Needless to say, Vayikra 19:27 is not about shaving your head and beard but about not participating in the practices of the world.

 

[visionary]

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

What better message to bring than that the gentiles are zealous for the law also, but there is no way to determine whether the group that was assigned to Paul was Jew or Gentile. But this issue is that Paul is telling everyone both Jew and Gentile not to keep the law.

Visionary, I always like your drasha's but I noticed one thing that stood out at me and I looked back.

27 The seven days were almost up when some unbelieving Jews from the province of Asia saw him in the Temple, stirred up all the crowd and grabbed him. 28 "Men of Isra'el, help!" they shouted. "This is the man who goes everywhere teaching everyone things against the people, against the Torah and against this place!

(funny how "unbelieving" Jews were so upset about someone teaching everyone things they themselves didn't "believe" in the first place)

And now he has even brought some Goyim into the Temple and defiled this holy place!" 29 (They had previously seen Trophimus from Ephesus in the city with him and assumed that Sha'ul had brought him into the Temple.)

Like Zayit identifed in accord with Stephen. This was an accusation, not the truth. These Jews had seen them with Shaul "AND ASSUMED" that he has brought them into the Temple. So they started a riot that wound Shaul in front of the Emperor of Rome. The Will of Elohim.

30 The whole city was aroused, and people came running from all over. They seized Sha'ul and dragged him out of the Temple, and at once the gates were shut. 31 But while they were attempting to kill him, word reached the commander of the Roman battalion that all Yerushalayim was in turmoil.

Were is the stoning of the Goyim who entered as well? Why no mention after the "accusation" of them at all? It was a lie. The men who had taken the vow along with him, were like him. Jewish. They were taking a "Jewish" Nazirite vow. Only Jews entered the Temple for purification. Not the Goyim. If this had actually happend they would have been just in there accusations. But these were "unbelieving" Jew who sought to undermine him at any cost. Even to death.

"Trophimus from Ephesus in the city with him" ...was a greek...and a believer but not with Paul....doesn't change the fact that just maybe those four fellows were gentiles.

Acts 21:17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Yeshua ranted on about the converting of other nations by the Pharasees like not only was this their practice, but that they had no idea what they were doing, causing people to be just like them.

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Who is to say that the four men were not proselytes? There were enough of them around.

Acts 6:5
And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. .... 8 and how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 13: 42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

 

[Shimshon]

The way I see it, Shaul had come back "from" the gentiles to Yerushalayim, where there were tens of thousands of believers among the Jews. These believing "Jews" told Shaul that the unbeliving "Jews" had been hearing that he was teaching that the Torah was done away with. So the elders (Jews) impressed upon him to do the Nazir mitzvah of shaving ones head in purification. They presented other Jews who were under the same vow and told him to go to the Temple with them and show everyone that they were wrong. That following Yeshua does not mean forsaking Torah.

Vis, I can appreciate your excitement and desire for them to be goyim, but I do not see this played out in the context.

 

[visionary]

The way I see it, Shaul had come back "from" the gentiles to Yerushalayim, where there were tens of thousands of believers among the Jews. These believing "Jews" told Shaul that the unbeliving "Jews" had been hearing that he was teaching that the Torah was done away with. So the elders (Jews) impressed upon him to do the Nazir mitzvah of shaving ones head in purification. They presented other Jews who were under the same vow and told him to go to the Temple with them and show everyone that they were wrong. That following Yeshua does not mean forsaking Torah.

Vis, I can appreciate your excitement and desire for them to be goyim, but I do not see this played out in the context.

It doesn't mean that they were jews, just means that they [pharsees or sadducees] must have also thought that vowing gentlemen included the goyim "Trophimus from Ephesus in the city with him and assumed that Sha'ul had brought him into the Temple"

The men who had taken the vow along with him, were like him. Jewish. They were taking a "Jewish" Nazirite vow. Only Jews entered the Temple for purification. Not the Goyim. If this had actually happend they would have been just in there accusations.

How can you say that only Jews entered the Temple for purification....are you saying that a proselyte could not? Are you saying that a goyim proselyte could not take the Nazarite vow? How can you say that they were just in their accusations, when this Trophimus was probably already in the temple on His own initiative? Who is to say that this was the first time Trophimus was in the temple? Accusers are rarely accurate in their accusation. Like their father, Satan the chief accuser of brethren, they were looking to stir up trouble. It is more likely that since the proselytes were of the "Messiah Yeshua" group, the unbelieving jews were looking for excuses to find fault. Since the accusation was already running amok in Jerusalem before Paul arrived. It was a scene waiting to happen. There was no justification for accusing Paul of bring in a gentile [not living according the law] into the temple.