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You've Probably Seen a Fish with Lungs in Person

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by PsychoSarah, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    Polypterus Senegalus, a fish regularly available in pet stores under the name "Dinosaur Bichir".

    [​IMG]
    How many of you guys have seen this fish, never knowing that instead of a swim bladder that they have lungs?

    These fish belong to the only genus of vertebrates that have lungs, but no trachea. I find it fascinating that this heavily implies that the evolution of lungs was initially independent of the evolution of trachea rather than those body parts developing together at the same time.

    They regularly breathe air to increase their oxygen supply, regardless of water levels or quality. From what I can find on them, the only thing stopping them from being able to be entirely terrestrial is the fact that they need their bodies to stay moist.

    I find it funny that people constantly demand fossil intermediates for various traits when there are living proofs of concept.
     
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  2. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Nope. Never even heard of it before this post.

    I look at the cats and dogs in the pet store, not much else.
     
  3. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. So, God created a fish with lungs. Didn't know that.
     
  4. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

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    Obviously He intended for us to take them for walks.
     
  5. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Obviously.
     
  6. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yeah, always walk your Mud Puppies (animals similar to the pic in the OP.
     
  7. The IbanezerScrooge

    The IbanezerScrooge Active Member

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    More of those transitional species creationists insist don't exist in the fossil record.. except alive. Today. Right in front of their eyes. Mudskippers. "Flying" fish. Legless lizards. They are all over the place.
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Transitional species? And you know they will finish transforming, how?
     
  9. d taylor

    d taylor Active Member

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    What was it and what did it become and why is it still here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  10. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    They are finished. It was some of their descendants who continued to evolve into other ecological niches. All species are "finished" just as all species are transitional species.
     
  11. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Was that an answer to the question?
     
  12. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Succinct and complete.

    Here's something to think about: I'm a (retired) machinist. I was well suited to the work and enjoyed it, seeing no reason to change. My son is a mechanical engineer. When he began that career I was still a machinist and continued to work at the trade without seeing any need to change just because my offspring became something different.
     
  13. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Saying that does NOT mean that species have transitioned, are transitioning or are going to. Proof would require a time machine to observe offspring, generation after generation. I have said that many time, but it does not seem to sink in. Remember: a hypothesis not proof or natural law.
     
  14. d taylor

    d taylor Active Member

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    What is sad in all this. is christians who believe science over the Bible.
    The atheist have nowhere to look to for truth and can be expected to put their faith in man/science.
    But a christian looking to science to explain God's creation is a curious dilemma to understand.
     
  15. essentialsaltes

    essentialsaltes Stranger in a Strange Land

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    I see fish with lungs all the time, but your take on things was a better surprise.

    [​IMG]

    Nerts. If it isn't showing, it's the cover of Neil Shubin's book, Your Inner Fish
     
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  16. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not only was it nor a compete answer as to "How", there was nothing there I saw as any answer at all.
     
  17. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    I thought the question was,
    My answer was, that they probably are finished. They have evidently found an ecological niche with stable selection criteria and will remain the way they are indefinitely. The fact that somewhere back in the past a branch of that creature's family encountered different selection criteria and evolved into something else doesn't change anything.

    Your question is akin to that old creationist riddle, "If we evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys?"
     
  18. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Exactly..."probably", and your wording means precisely, you don't "know" "how".

    Why are we still arguing something so obvious? Best to say you don't know how and move on.
     
  19. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    I say "probably" because I don't know the future. I cannot say for certain that the selection criteria which that creature is subjected to will not change, resulting in evolution or extinction. The "how" you are looking for is, I suppose, randomly distributed variation and natural selection.
     
  20. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    I called it a "proof of concept". A lot of creationists argue against the existence of transitional species by claiming that certain combinations they view as necessary are physically impossible in a viable animal. This animal is a demonstration that an organism can have adequate lungs and adequate gills at the same time, as well as the capability to effectively move on land despite being an organism that generally stays in the water. That's how it serves as a proof of concept.

    There are quite a few animals like this living today, but I found this one to be interesting because I've seen it in pet stores, and never suspected it had lungs.

    Also, there's no such thing as literal "proof" in science, that is a thing exclusive to math. However, the evidence to support a scientific conclusion can be so vast and reliable that people treat it as "proof".

    Coincidentally, via looking them up more, I found an experiment that pressured them into living a mostly terrestrial life. It's a pretty fascinating experiment as well, because the fish raised that way developed a different body structure than the ones that weren't, and the changes helped them live that way even more. How fish can learn to walk

    How lifestyle options impacts evolution is not a topic often covered, so I find it very fascinating. Makes you wonder how much that can apply to humans.
     
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