You're not a prophet? Then you're not mature!

[LightLoveHope]

Prophecy and love

2 My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge
Col 2

22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him
Deut 18

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
Deut 18

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1 Cor 13

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
1 Cor 13

21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit
2 Peter 1

9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight,
10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ,
11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God
Phil 1

 

[JAL]

I challenge you to come to a better understanding of Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church.

That's my challenge to you, actually. I've made plenty of points on this thread unaddressed by you as yet.

Paul strove mightily which this church and it's tendency to fracture over many various issues. One of these issues was giftedness.

The Corinthians were, essentially, pressing the same point that you are trying to make here, ... that one particular type of spiritual giftedness was better than another.

Actually Paul himself made that distinction when he said 'Eagerly desire the greater gifts' (12:31). Note where prophecy fell in that ranking. Or did you miss that? And in 1Cor 14, did he not make it all the more clear that prophecy ranks higher than tongues (unless of course there's an interpreter whence it counts as prophecy).

And why he encouraged the Corinthians, in Chapter 12, to seek the best gift, ... which he identifies in chapter 13 as LOVE.

Love is not one of the charismata. You might want to read up on the gifts. Also the original Greek chapters weren't numbered. Therefore chapter 13's conclusion, "And now I will show you the most excellent way" is fulfilled at 14:1 (this is the most excellent way): "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual things, especially the gift of prophecy."

See how he distinguished love from the gifts? But insofar as the gifts are concerned (or rather 'spiritual things' since the Greek doesn't say spiritual gifts), he was unambiguous that prophecy is top-1 priority. Funny sounds remotely like what I've been stressing, doesn't it?

Something to note about ALL of Jesus' miraculous works ... is that they were all also works of LOVE.

And?

OTOH, Jesus prophesies that the devil will come with a (granted) power, as well, of which the Church must be discerning.

And does this devil magnify the name of the Son of God? Proclaims Jesus as God? You are worried you can't recognize the devil? That's your worry? Because I thought I was debating with someone seasoned in the faith.

So, as to the hypothetical you laid out ... I would much rather that my son's healing is sourced in God ...

As I expected. Non-responsive. That's not a direct answer to the question raised. People ask me why I'm so confident in my views - that's why.

I read a book many moons ago titled "The Beautiful Side of Evil" which was the autobiographical account of a young woman who had gotten caught up in a spiritual "healing" ministry ... which was, ultimately, sourced in the power of the occult.

Her story tells you of how she ultimately became aware of it's evil ... and how she had to call upon Jesus to free her from it's power.

So ... power, in and of itself, is not, necessarily, a sign of greatness in God's kingdom, but rather, that you utilize whatever power God grants you in loving service to Him and His people.

What power? Were the sick being healed? The dead raised? Because I don't see the hospitals being bankrupted due to competition with all the healing power in the devil's hands. There's very little power in the church today - and significantly less in the demonic realm, from what I've seen. Go back to the scenario I painted for you. When you give me a clear answer to that scenario, then I can take seriously your supposed worries about being fooled by demons into becoming a cult member.

So ... power, in and of itself, is not, necessarily, a sign of greatness in God's kingdom, but rather, that you utilize whatever power God grants you in loving service to Him and His people.

So love is the marker, right? Things like servant-hood? Right? I just saw several episodes of that classic forensics show about crime. Here's an example - and several episodes were similar. A man befriended some elderly people, took care of them, waited on them hand and foot, took them to the hospital, the doctor, chauffeured them, cooked and cleaned for them - he was a servant in every respect. He showed them all kinds of love. Little did they know he was poisoning their food as he was writing himself into their will to steal their inheritance. And you're worried about being fooled by a cult? I'm much more worried about being fooled by LOVE.

Going back to that scenario I painted for you - which you ignored - I'll take the signs-and-wonders guy over the love-guy seven days a week and twice on Sunday. Any day of the week.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Imagine we were all prophets.

Does a prophet ever suggest different views on theology and the Lord?
Is everything they say prophetic or only the words spoken, thus says the Lord.

Paul interestingly said "The Lord says"

17 "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord"
2 Cor 6

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man
1 Tim 2

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):
1 Cor 7

7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4

And if one prophesies in error not from the Lord, is one a bad tree with no redemption or faith?
If one is truly a prophet, knowing caution and restraint is part of its reality.

Jesus seemed to imply we are either good trees or bad trees, with either good fruit or bad fruit. This implied that once one is fully committed to a particular spiritual reality, it is hard to be anything else. Certainly this has been the reality I have seen on the ground.

And Jesus's answer was the fruit of the teaching, does it build up and bring love and life or is it about destruction pain and division. Love is a wonderful reality because it leads to life and eternity in Jesus.
God bless you all.

 

[JAL]

I challenge you to come to a better understanding of Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church.

Paul strove mightily which this church and it's tendency to fracture over many various issues. One of these issues was giftedness.

The Corinthians were, essentially, pressing the same point that you are trying to make here, ... that one particular type of spiritual giftedness was better than another.

That's why he asked the hypothetical questions ... Do ALL speak in tongues ?", etc.

And why he encouraged the Corinthians, in Chapter 12, to seek the best gift, ... which he identifies in chapter 13 as LOVE.

Something to note about ALL of Jesus' miraculous works ... is that they were all also works of LOVE.

OTOH, Jesus prophesies that the devil will come with a (granted) power, as well, of which the Church must be discerning.

I read a book many moons ago titled "The Beautiful Side of Evil" which was the autobiographical account of a young woman who had gotten caught up in a spiritual "healing" ministry ... which was, ultimately, sourced in the power of the occult.

Her story tells you of how she ultimately became aware of it's evil ... and how she had to call upon Jesus to free her from it's power.

So ... power, in and of itself, is not, necessarily, a sign of greatness in God's kingdom, but rather, that you utilize whatever power God grants you in loving service to Him and His people.

So, as to the hypothetical you laid out ... I would much rather that my son's healing is sourced in God ...

There's a HUGE disconnect here. My defense is more weighty in tandem with my epistemology defended on another thread. Let me explain. When a prophet like Moses passed on God's command to go slaughter 7 nations to take possession of Canaan, such a violent message should be disregarded unless authenticated. Thus the Spirit must convict (convince) both the prophet and his audience, meaning that true prophetic ministry typically leaves the audience 100% certain that God has spoken. Which is precisely why the NT rightly defines evangelism as prophecy.

We've been debating markers for maturity, but prophecy is the ultimate marker. In other words, in answer to questions of this kind:
(1)How did Paul know for sure that he himself was mature?
(2) How could others recognize him as mature?
(3) How could he recognize others as mature?
the most definitive answer is this, "Simple. When I am 100% certain of such things."

"Love" cannot authenticate to that extent - think of all the parents who entrusted their children to 'loving' pastors, priests, Sunday-school teachers, athletic coaches, only to see their children sexually abused.

Does that mean that Jesus was wrong when He said that love is a marker? One scholar pointed out (wish I had saved that reference), the only way to make sense of Jesus' words is that the Inward Witness must confirm that apparent love is real love, unfaked. Guess what - that too is a direct revelation!

Any way you look at it, prophecy (direct revelation) is the ultimate marker for all parties involved.

 

[A_Thinker]

Actually Paul himself made that distinction when he said 'Eagerly desire the greater gifts' (12:31). Note where prophecy fell in that ranking. Or did you miss that?

Did you miss this ... ???

1 Corinthians 12

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will fail; where there are tongues, they will cease; where there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[A_Thinker]

Therefore chapter 13's conclusion, "And now I will show you the most excellent way"

That's actually chapter 12, ... and it leads into Paul's discussion of LOVE in chapter 13 ...

 

[A_Thinker]

And does this devil magnify the name of the Son of God? Proclaims Jesus as God? You are worried you can't recognize the devil? That's your worry? Because I thought I was debating with someone seasoned in the faith.

It concerns me that you so often regress to such pettiness ...

 

[A_Thinker]

So love is the marker, right? Things like servant-hood? Right? I just saw several episodes of that classic forensics show about crime. Here's an example - and several episodes were similar. A man befriended some elderly people, took care of them, waited on them hand and foot, took them to the hospital, the doctor, chauffeured them, cooked and cleaned for them - he was a servant in every respect. He showed them all kinds of love. Little did they know he was poisoning their food as he was writing himself into their will to steal their inheritance. And you're worried about being fooled by a cult? I'm much more worried about being fooled by LOVE.

Your concern is one which apparently was not shared by Jesus. Do you recall His parable of the "Good Samaritan" ???

 

[A_Thinker]

I'll take the signs-and-wonders guy over the love-guy seven days a week and twice on Sunday. Any day of the week.

And, by so doing, ... you are setting yourself up to be deceived ...

2 Thessalonians 2

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, ...

 

[A_Thinker]

1 Corinthians 14:1 "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual things, especially the gift of prophecy."

I do not disagree that Paul encouraged giftedness in prophecy among his followers, ... but he didn't set it up as standard of spiritual maturity ...

 

[A_Thinker]

"Love" cannot authenticate to that extent - think of all the parents who entrusted their children to 'loving' pastors, priests, Sunday-school teachers, athletic coaches, only to see their children sexually abused.

So ... here you speak of "false love".

In scripture, which scenario is more earnestly warned against ... "false love" ... or "false prophecy" ?

 

[fwGod]

The title is over-simplified, and inaccurate. Not everyone who prophesies is a prophet.

The apostle Paul said as much in 1 Cor.12:29 "are all apostles? are all prophets?"

The unwritten answer is "no".

 

[A_Thinker]

Does that mean that Jesus was wrong when He said that love is a marker? One scholar pointed out (wish I had saved that reference), the only way to make sense of Jesus' words is that the Inward Witness must confirm that apparent love is real love, unfaked.

Why do you strive so mightily to make Jesus' own words of non effect ?

"By this will all men know that you are my disciples ... if you have LOVE, one for another." John 13:35

 

[JAL]

The title is over-simplified, and inaccurate. Not everyone who prophesies is a prophet.

The apostle Paul said as much in 1 Cor.12:29 "are all apostles? are all prophets?"

The unwritten answer is "no".

Even if the title were over-simplified (and I don't believe it is), that's hardly a monumental distinction in terms of what I'm trying to convey here. The main point is Paul's identification of spiritual maturity with prophetic maturity. Once we've all become mature in prophecy, then we can quibble/nitpick about your semantic distinction. Right now I don't think it's the most vital issue here.

 

[JAL]

Why do you strive so mightily to make Jesus' own words of non effect ?

"By this will all men know that you are my disciples ... if you have LOVE, one for another." John 13:35

Why do you strive so hard to make Paul's words of none-effect?

 

[JAL]

So ... here you speak of "false love".

In scripture, which scenario is more earnestly warned against ... "false love" ... or "false prophecy" ?

You're seriously asking me whether Scripture contains an oxymoron?

 

[A_Thinker]

Why do you strive so hard to make Paul's words of none-effect?

Give me an example of where I discounted Paul's words ...

 

[JAL]

I do not disagree that Paul encouraged giftedness in prophecy among his followers, ... but he didn't set it up as standard of spiritual maturity ...

Then you missed the point of chapter 13, for one thing, as buttressed by even cessationsist scholars who DO agree with me on that point - I quoted those scholars. Cessationists are the LAST people on earth who would delight in making such a concession, and yet several did. They found themselves forced to admit that Paul gauged spiritual maturity by prophetic maturity. I covered all this already in my two posts on chapter 13. As I said, there is PLENTY of material on this thread that you haven't addressed as yet (not to mention other threads of mine that I linked to).

And as I've pointed out several times, even if I were to concede that chapter 2 doesn't specifically thematize 'prophecy', the meat of my argument (as it centers on direct revelation) remains. That's not a detail that I need to quibble over. On the other hand, chapter 13 does explicitly say 'prophesy' so there's no denying it there.

 

[fwGod]

Even if the title were over-simplified (and I don't believe it is), that's hardly a monumental distinction in terms of what I'm trying to convey here. The main point is Paul's identification of spiritual maturity with prophetic maturity. Once we've all become mature in prophecy, then we can quibble/nitpick about your semantic distinction. Right now I don't think it's the most vital issue here.

I've only giving what the new testament has stated about your topic.

You base your post on prophesying being the indication of maturity. Yet the apostle Paul does not agree with you.

It's not me that you quibble with. What you call nitpicking is what the Bible calls "rightly distinguishing". When it comes to sharing the Bible as accurately as one can. Then nitpicking is essential.

After all, an inch off track can lead to an increasing distance off track. As the apostle Peter states.. that many go off track when they use their own private interpretations.

But. Everyone has a right to their own ways of looking at things.

 

[JAL]

Give me an example of where I discounted Paul's words ...

Give me an example where I discounted Christ's words. That's what you accused me of.