Your thoughts on Church on Sunday, instead of Saturday

GenemZ

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Paul considered himself to be a Jew and saw distinctions between Jews and Gentiles:

Acts 22:3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day.

Romans 3:1-2 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Romans 9:1-5 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

The Bible clearly refers to people are are Jews, Gentiles, slaves, free, men, and women, so Paul was not denying the obvious reality of these categories, but rather he was denying that these categories gave someone special status when it comes to being in Christ, such as with Jews looking down on Gentiles. We are all different parts of the same body, so we don't all have the same role, but there are no second-class citizens of God's Kingdom. Following God's Law in accordance with what Christ taught by word and by example is not about living as a Jew, but about living as a follower of Christ.


You fail to see the context as to why Paul spoke that way.
 
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usexpat97

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Paul said pretty directly in the Bible there is NOT a distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Paul also told the Colossians,
2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

So at the end of the day, the legalists are not in charge. We are continuing to observe Easter on Sunday and that will be that.
 
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GenemZ

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Paul said pretty directly in the Bible there is NOT a distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Paul also told the Colossians,
2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

So at the end of the day, the legalists are not in charge. We are continuing to observe Easter on Sunday and that will be that.

Legalists are born in every generation. The Bible points their traits out. If they are honest before God? They will repent and walk straight. Every contrary trait to righteousness gets exposed by the Scriptures. The ones that stay that way find false doctrine to thrust forth. Those who repent after exposure to the Truth God is pleased with. Those who refuse are *exposed.*
 
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Soyeong

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Paul said pretty directly in the Bible there is NOT a distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Yet, there are verses where Paul made distinctions between Jews and Gentile such as Romans 3:1-2 and Romans 9:1-5 that you need to reconcile. The issue that Paul was addressing was that some Jews thought that being circumcised gave them superior status to Gentiles and they were looking down on Gentiles as being inferior, which was creating disunity within the body. So Paul was calling for unity within the body of Christ without respect to our status, not denying that there are any distinctions between Jews and Gentiles.

Paul also told the Colossians,
2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.


If you isolate that verse, then it is ambiguous as to whether Paul was saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them. However, if we look at the context of the views of the people judging them and keep in mind the broader context that we must obey God rather than man, then it becomes clear.

In Colossians 2:16-23, the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's command in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow, they were being judged by pagans teaching human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was writing to encourage them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God. So it is ironic that you would try to use this verse to justify your refusal to obey God. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so you should not interpret him as seeking to do the opposite as though he were an enemy of God.

So at the end of the day, the legalists are not in charge.

If God were a legalist for requiring His followers to obey His Law and Jesus was a legalist for living in complete obedience to it and for teaching his followers to obey it by word and by example, then being a legalist would be being in good company, but that is not what legalism refers to. You don't consider someone to be a legalist for thinking that the laws of their country should be obeyed, so legaalm is not about thinking that followers of God should follow Him, but rather it refers to the manner in which someone follows the letter of the law exactly it is written without regard to the spirit of the law or the intent behind it. For example:

Leviticus 19:12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

Someone who was focused on obeying the spirit of this law would understand that its intent is for us not to swear falsely, whereas someone who was focused on obeying the letter of this law exactly how it was written would understand that we can swear falsely just as long as we don't do so in God's name, which incidentally is the heart of what Jesus was criticizing the Pharisees for doing in Matthew 23:16-22. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that they should be tithing without neglecting weightier matters of the Law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so this is another form of legalism that undermines the intent of God teaching us how to express His character traits through His Law.

We are continuing to observe Easter on Sunday and that will be that.

The Israelites had daily prayers and offerings, so they worshiped God on every day and it is good to form a tradition of worshiping God on Sunday, but that didn't stop them from also obeying God's command to keep the Sabbath holy, so neither should it stop us. In Mark 7:6-13, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so the problem is not with someone having a tradition of worshiping God on Sunday, but with them hypocritically setting aside God's command to keep the Sabbath holy in order to establish their own tradition. It is impossible to worship God through disobeying His commands.
 
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GenemZ

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Yet, there are verses where Paul made distinctions between Jews and Gentile such as Romans 3:1-2 and Romans 9:1-5 that you need to reconcile.


You fail to think in a realistic historical context.

When someone migrates from a foreign country? He will retain his native tongue and many of his ingrained cultural ways of thinking. At first it becomes a great "culture shock" and a steep learning curve learning to "acclimate" into the new found homeland.

So, when the early church spoke of Jews and Gentile believers? Its was about how to approach these mind sets who had ingrained cultural ways of thinking and behaving. Back then you would not treat a Jew as you would treat a Gentile when indoctrinating them into the Kingdom. It would take several generations to have smooth transitions into the Christian way of life.

But.. (this is where you fail to see)....

After several generations of Christianity - to Christianity - to Christianity? You should stop seeing the original cultural concerns being manifested. Back then to tell a Jew he could now eat bacon was a shock to his system. But, after many generations of Christianity being passed down, believers who are willing to accept the Word would make smooth transitions.

Its the legalists with retrogressive thinking who have the hardest experience when saved. For they will have the stubborn deeply ingrained prejudices being demanded to take to the Cross when exposed in the light of the truth of God's Word. The Truth making us free from legalism....

So be it. We do not ride on horseback, nor donkeys these days.

So, when someone becomes a Christian today? Most of us do not need to be told how to (or, not how to) feed a horse, or a donkey.

But, also history teaches ...

We will always find amongst us a few with Biblical retrogressive thinking.

Those ones found amongst us will be a test for most believers who must learn to have patience in love with them. Patience as the retrogressive types keep persisting and persisting in telling us how they think we need to think.

All the while?

They are beating a dead horse!


grace and peace
 
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Soyeong

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You fail to think in a realistic historical context.

When someone migrates from a foreign country? He will retain his native tongue and many of his ingrained cultural ways of thinking. At first it becomes a great "culture shock" and a steep learning curve learning to "acclimate" into the new found homeland.

So, when the early church spoke of Jews and Gentile believers? Its was about how to approach these mind sets who had ingrained cultural ways of thinking and behaving. Back then you would not treat a Jew as you would treat a Gentile when indoctrinating them into the Kingdom. It would take several generations to have smooth transitions into the Christian way of life.

But.. (this is where you fail to see)....

After several generations of Christianity - to Christianity - to Christianity? You should stop seeing the original cultural concerns being manifested. Back then to tell a Jew he could now eat bacon was a shock to his system. But, after many generations of Christianity being passed down, believers who are willing to accept the Word would make smooth transitions.

Its the legalists with retrogressive thinking who have the hardest experience when saved. For they will have the stubborn deeply ingrained prejudices being demanded to take to the Cross when exposed in the light of the truth of God's Word. The Truth making us free from legalism....

So be it. We do not ride on horseback, nor donkeys these days.

So, when someone becomes a Christian today? Most of us do not need to be told how to (or, not how to) feed a horse, or a donkey.

But, also history teaches ...

We will always find amongst us a few with Biblical retrogressive thinking.

Those ones found amongst us will be a test for most believers who must learn to have patience in love with them. Patience as the retrogressive types keep persisting and persisting in telling us how they think we need to think.

All the while?

They are beating a dead horse!


grace and peace

1.) Was Jesus in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow?
2. ) Did Jesus live in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law?
3.) Did Jesus practice Judaism by keeping its laws and holding its beliefs?
4.) Did Jesus hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced?
5.) Should followers of Christ seek to follow what he taught by word and by example?
6.) What is your definition of "legalism"?

I think you are making an unjustified assumption that the prophesied Messiah of Judaism brought something that was foreign to Judaism and though he was in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow. Rather, in John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we do not love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so Jesus did not teach his own thing, and if we love him, then we will obey what the Father has taught.

In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed the Israelites to determine that someone who was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying His Law, so if someone were to tell them that we no longer need to obey God's command against eating unclean animals, and a Jew were to reject what they said, then they would be acting in accordance with what God instructed them to do. God simply did not leave us any room to follow someone who teaches something other than His Law and Christians who say that Jesus did that are sadly one of the biggest reasons why Jews have rejected him as the Messiah.

In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said was true, so that is the standard by which we should accept what Paul wrote is true, and we should not accept error that has creeped in over generations. God's Word says that it is unlawful to eat unclean animals (Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14), so eating unclean animals is not accepting God's Word, but rather it is rejecting it. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Paul said that everything spoken by God is profitable for teaching, correction, reproof, training in righteousness, and equipping us to do every good work, and this is inclusive of Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. Turning away from God's Word is regress, not progress.
 
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GenemZ

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1.) Was Jesus in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow?


Jesus came to the Jews as a rabbi.

He spoke as a Jew, to Jews.

There was no church age teachings until after He ascended and was glorified.

While on earth as a rabbi, he taught the Jews to obey every jot and tittel of the Law.
 
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Soyeong

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Jesus came to the Jews as a rabbi.

He spoke as a Jew, to Jews.

There was no church age teachings until after He ascended and was glorified.

While on earth as a rabbi, he taught the Jews to obey every jot and tittel of the Law.

So you think that people in the Church should follow Christ is by refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example?
 
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GenemZ

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So you think that people in the Church should reject what Jesus taught by word and by example?


You tell me. Would you give the same command?

13 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,”
he said. “Be clean!” And immediately the leprosy left him.

14 Then Jesus ordered him, “Don’t tell anyone, but go, show
yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses
commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.
” Lk 5:13-14

You still fail to see the context of what dispensation Jesus was born into. The Church is a new way of life. But, so many today bungle interpreting what was written that many have no idea what the church age is supposed to be doing. Law? Grace? Glace? Lace? Glaw?

Many are confused, and at the same time impatiently demand, simple, fast answers, that they can become dogmatic about as to render themselves into a state of being pseudo stabilized in a confusing world that scares them.
 
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GenemZ

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Really? Where did he go to school?

Many Jews learned the Bible from a young age.

At age twelve Jesus was a genius at Bible teaching.

Jesus at age twelve was expressing amazing truths from the Torah.



"The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing
in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him."
Luke 2:40​


At age twelve we find the following about Jesus...


"Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting
in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking
them questions. And all who heard Him were amazed at His
understanding and His answers."
Lk 2:46-47​


Rabbis were raised up from the people like rock musicians are today. They did not need to show a degree to teach, only ability. Many rabbis in that day had their group of disciples who followed them.


"The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
And Jesus turned and saw them following, and *said to them,
“What do you seek?” They said to Him, “Rabbi (which translated
means Teacher), where are You staying?” He *said to them,
“Come, and you will see.”
Jn 1:37-39​


Jesus was recognized as a Rabbi by those who knew him.
 
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Silverback

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So, we Christians try not to live by the law as I understand. We live now through the salvation of Christ for what He did for us, and we as the Christian church made a statement to the jews that we no longer live by the law, so to make that statement bold and loud, the church changed worship days from Saturday, to Sunday.

My church on the other hand, do not go to the service for the sabbath at all however, not even to rest.. but to try to emulate and look like the church movement of Acts in the upper room.

We are not going there to rest, but to learn about God in a more of 'Bible' study format and to hear what God has to say to us through the scripture readings.. then pray together as the body of Christ, and using our spiritual gifts to go outside of our church walls and to tell the lost world about what sin is, and how Christ can save them from God's judgement toward that sin when they put their faith and trust in Him alone, not by following the law or by good works.

In other words, after the Sunday service, be on the great commission all week as the church together.

So, that is my understanding on what Sunday is for me and my local church here, the emulation of the church in the book of Acts.

What is your reasoning and understandings of it? I am putting some ideas together for a blog post coming up, looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say!

The church I attended in Illinois now has one complete service on Sunday morning, and one complete service on Wednesday evening.

We are free in these matters, one day of the week is no different than another.

I prefer Sunday morning worship myself, however many people have to work on Sundays now, and miss church completely.
 
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GenemZ

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The church I attended in Illinois now has one complete service on Sunday morning, and one complete service on Wednesday evening.

We are free in these matters, one day of the week is no different than another.

I prefer Sunday morning worship myself, however many people have to work on Sundays now, and miss church completely.

My church had teaching services six days out of the week, and several mornings on the some of the days.

Why? The pastor knew what he was doing (expertly taught from the Hebrew and Greek), and there were people who were genuinely hungry for learning the Word of God. They were not simply seeking some emotional experience to rest in. They hungered for understanding the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. That's what the early churches did as they met daily in homes to hear the Word of God being taught.

Its all a matter of what you hunger for.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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So, we Christians try not to live by the law as I understand. We live now through the salvation of Christ for what He did for us, and we as the Christian church made a statement to the jews that we no longer live by the law, so to make that statement bold and loud, the church changed worship days from Saturday, to Sunday.

My church on the other hand, do not go to the service for the sabbath at all however, not even to rest.. but to try to emulate and look like the church movement of Acts in the upper room.

We are not going there to rest, but to learn about God in a more of 'Bible' study format and to hear what God has to say to us through the scripture readings.. then pray together as the body of Christ, and using our spiritual gifts to go outside of our church walls and to tell the lost world about what sin is, and how Christ can save them from God's judgement toward that sin when they put their faith and trust in Him alone, not by following the law or by good works.

In other words, after the Sunday service, be on the great commission all week as the church together.

So, that is my understanding on what Sunday is for me and my local church here, the emulation of the church in the book of Acts.

What is your reasoning and understandings of it? I am putting some ideas together for a blog post coming up, looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say!

Bro, you just said that Christians try not to live by the law. Are you really serious about that statement? Trying not to live by the law means making an effort to disobey the law.
 
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GenemZ

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Bro, you just said that Christians try not to live by the law. Are you really serious about that statement? Trying not to live by the law means making an effort to disobey the law.

Living by the Law means...

These are the rules. Do them! Do them all! (good boy)

Living under grace and truth means....

This is what God expects from Spirit and Truth filled believers.
You are to become them when transformed by God's power. (a new nature)


"And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory,
are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing
glory,
which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
2 Cor 3:18​


Those who preceded the church age, who lived under the Law, did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Without this grace power they had to will themselves to do things commanded by the Law.

But, when in grace and growing in truth? After persevering in the Spirit for a time, we will find ourselves fulfilling what is required automatically because of the new nature taking over our being.


"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."
Gal 5:18


Those who are legalists are grieving and quenching the Spirit in them Who wants to deliver them from their old ways of doing things. These are usually strong willed people who think they are naturally stronger than others in willing to do things properly. It turns into arrogance that they become relaxed with, but very rigid when challenged by truly relaxed people who live by grace.

grace and peace...
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Living by the Law means...

These are the rules. Do them! Do them all! (good boy)

Living under grace and truth means....

This is what God expects from Spirit and Truth filled believers.
You are to become them when transformed by God's power. (a new nature)


"And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory,
are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing
glory,
which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
2 Cor 3:18​


Those who preceded the church age, who lived under the Law, did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Without this grace power they had to will themselves to do things commanded by the Law.

But, when in grace and growing in truth? After persevering in the Spirit for a time, we will find ourselves fulfilling what is required automatically because of the new nature taking over our being.


"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."
Gal 5:18


Those who are legalists are grieving and quenching the Spirit in them Who wants to deliver them from their old ways of doing things. These are usually strong willed people who think they are naturally stronger than others in willing to do things properly. It turns into arrogance that they become relaxed with, but very rigid when challenged by truly relaxed people who live by grace.

grace and peace...

Those are just your definitions. You express living by the law in a legalistic way but Jesus lived by the law and was not legalistic at all. You are also wrong to say that those below the church age lacked "grace power" as you said and had to will themselves to do what is required by the law. God enabled all his followers to follow him no matter the age. Didn't Noah find grace in the eyes of the lord? Grace always existed my friend. Everybody who will be saved is going to be saved by grace. Nobody could have been and never could be saved by keeping the law. The law is eternal because the law is based on love. Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. Paul says that Love is the Fulfilling of the law.

So when Eric says that Christians try not to live by the law and none of you guys have an issue with that statement it raises an eyebrow. If I am trying not to do something it means I am paying attention to it and making sure I do the opposite or just not do it. You however, said that because of the indwelling spirit you do it automatically, How can both of those things make sense together.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Living by the Law means...

These are the rules. Do them! Do them all! (good boy)

Living under grace and truth means....

This is what God expects from Spirit and Truth filled believers.
You are to become them when transformed by God's power. (a new nature)


"And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory,
are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing
glory,
which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
2 Cor 3:18​


Those who preceded the church age, who lived under the Law, did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Without this grace power they had to will themselves to do things commanded by the Law.

But, when in grace and growing in truth? After persevering in the Spirit for a time, we will find ourselves fulfilling what is required automatically because of the new nature taking over our being.


"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."
Gal 5:18


Those who are legalists are grieving and quenching the Spirit in them Who wants to deliver them from their old ways of doing things. These are usually strong willed people who think they are naturally stronger than others in willing to do things properly. It turns into arrogance that they become relaxed with, but very rigid when challenged by truly relaxed people who live by grace.

grace and peace...

But, when in grace and growing in truth? After persevering in the Spirit for a time, we will find ourselves fulfilling what is required automatically because of the new nature taking over our being.

So what is it that is required?
 
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GenemZ

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Those are just your definitions. You express living by the law in a legalistic way but Jesus lived by the law and was not legalistic at all. You are also wrong to say that those below the church age lacked "grace power" as you said and had to will themselves to do what is required by the law. God enabled all his followers to follow him no matter the age. Didn't Noah find grace in the eyes of the lord? Grace always existed my friend. Everybody who will be saved is going to be saved by grace. Nobody could have been and never could be saved by keeping the law. The law is eternal because the law is based on love. Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. Paul says that Love is the Fulfilling of the law.

So when Eric says that Christians try not to live by the law and none of you guys have an issue with that statement it raises an eyebrow. If I am trying not to do something it means I am paying attention to it and making sure I do the opposite or just not do it. You however, said that because of the indwelling spirit you do it automatically, How can both of those things make sense together.

Well... At least you know what I said. But, you do not understand it at all.

"For it is God who works in you to will and to act
in order to fulfill his good purpose."
Philip 2:13​
 
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