Your thoughts on Church on Sunday, instead of Saturday

Eric Abbott

Active Member
Dec 8, 2016
60
46
35
Texas
Visit site
✟13,994.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
So, we Christians try not to live by the law as I understand. We live now through the salvation of Christ for what He did for us, and we as the Christian church made a statement to the jews that we no longer live by the law, so to make that statement bold and loud, the church changed worship days from Saturday, to Sunday.

My church on the other hand, do not go to the service for the sabbath at all however, not even to rest.. but to try to emulate and look like the church movement of Acts in the upper room.

We are not going there to rest, but to learn about God in a more of 'Bible' study format and to hear what God has to say to us through the scripture readings.. then pray together as the body of Christ, and using our spiritual gifts to go outside of our church walls and to tell the lost world about what sin is, and how Christ can save them from God's judgement toward that sin when they put their faith and trust in Him alone, not by following the law or by good works.

In other words, after the Sunday service, be on the great commission all week as the church together.

So, that is my understanding on what Sunday is for me and my local church here, the emulation of the church in the book of Acts.

What is your reasoning and understandings of it? I am putting some ideas together for a blog post coming up, looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say!
 

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
79
Southern Ga.
✟157,715.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So, we Christians try not to live by the law as I understand. We live now through the salvation of Christ for what He did for us, and we as the Christian church made a statement to the jews that we no longer live by the law, so to make that statement bold and loud, the church changed worship days from Saturday, to Sunday.

.
Rom 14:5,6
5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,458
8,967
Florida
✟321,765.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
So, we Christians try not to live by the law as I understand. We live now through the salvation of Christ for what He did for us, and we as the Christian church made a statement to the jews that we no longer live by the law, so to make that statement bold and loud, the church changed worship days from Saturday, to Sunday.

My church on the other hand, do not go to the service for the sabbath at all however, not even to rest.. but to try to emulate and look like the church movement of Acts in the upper room.

We are not going there to rest, but to learn about God in a more of 'Bible' study format and to hear what God has to say to us through the scripture readings.. then pray together as the body of Christ, and using our spiritual gifts to go outside of our church walls and to tell the lost world about what sin is, and how Christ can save them from God's judgement toward that sin when they put their faith and trust in Him alone, not by following the law or by good works.

In other words, after the Sunday service, be on the great commission all week as the church together.

So, that is my understanding on what Sunday is for me and my local church here, the emulation of the church in the book of Acts.

What is your reasoning and understandings of it? I am putting some ideas together for a blog post coming up, looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say!

My thoughts on it are rather short. The matter was resolved a long time ago and need not be re-visited. The Church has chosen for herself the appropriate day of Christian worship and no one has the authority to change that.

I know that isn't very interesting blog fodder but it is my thoughts on it.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,773
7,919
NW England
✟1,041,499.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, we Christians try not to live by the law as I understand. We live now through the salvation of Christ for what He did for us, and we as the Christian church made a statement to the jews that we no longer live by the law, so to make that statement bold and loud, the church changed worship days from Saturday, to Sunday.

I'm not sure that it was changed to "make a statement to the Jews". I think it was changed because Jesus, our Lord, Saviour, author of our faith and founder of the church, rose on the first day of the week.

My church on the other hand, do not go to the service for the sabbath at all however, not even to rest.. but to try to emulate and look like the church movement of Acts in the upper room.

Traditionally, Christians meet together on the first day of the week for corporate worship, to hear the word, break bread together, encourage and pray for one another and have/receive fellowship.
Christians ARE the church. It wouldn't matter too much when, and where, we met; we have the risen Christ in and with us and we are to witness to him and be salt and light in the world.

I don't know anyone who goes to church for a rest - in fact for clergy, preachers and some others, it can be the busiest day of the week.

What is your reasoning and understandings of it? I am putting some ideas together for a blog post coming up, looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say!

I think it has been largely forgotten that the church is the Christians who go there. I think the church should be a means to an end - i.e that we receive teaching, encouragement, a word from God etc so that we can go out into the world and are equipped to witness and minister to others. For some churches that I know, the Sunday service is IT; pretty much the only thing they do in the week.
I don't believe that buildings matter at all; we could hire somewhere for our weekly meetings. We could split up, go to different houses and have housegroup type services.
Yet because most places have their own buildings, the focus is on how to maintain them, fundraise, appoint property stewards, etc. In my previous church, we once wanted to move 6 chairs, which were once reserved for the choir, into the main worship area. The minister may as well have announced world war 3, and he later said that if people showed as much passion for the Gospel as they did for church furniture, we'd have a revival.
I'm on the leadership team at my church - very reluctantly - and go to meetings - sadly. But I'm not really interested in that side of church.
 
Upvote 0

Greg J.

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 2, 2016
3,841
1,907
Southeast Michigan
✟233,164.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
...
I don't know anyone who goes to church for a rest - in fact for clergy, preachers and some others, it can be the busiest day of the week.
...
For whom Monday is often the Sabbath. :)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Strong in Him
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,680
68
Tolworth
✟369,559.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We are not going there to rest,

I don't know anything about your work history, but from this comment you have not spent 5/6 days of hard, constant physical toil.
The sabeth was oa day of rest from physical work, a day when the worshipper could be 're-created' by spending time in the worship of God and time with friends and family.

For the Christian it is a time when the noise, distractions, demands etc of the world can be put to oneside and the Christian can be 're-created' by spending time in the worship of God.

A question for you.

On monday morning are you excited about the oppertunety to talk at work about the services on Sunday and the content of the sermons?
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,662.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What you have to remember is this:

The Priests "worked" their tails off on Saturday, but it was not "work", because it was worship (obeying God's commands and offering up that obedience as worship) which is never work, so they observed the Sabbath Rest in worshipping!! If the priest had been "paid" for what they did you would have paid worshippers (like the pagans did) but that was not the case since the Priestly tribe was to be given money by the other tribes through the tribe of Levi, no matter what they did. (Do you think God would like people to be paid to worship Him?)

Today you are part of the priestly tribe and you get to constantly be doing stuff out of obedience to God (even doing stuff to help your family, out of obedience to God) and can offer up to God constantly your obedience (worship) since you are constantly carrying your cross and offering yourself up. This is the Jubilee Age, so your constantly in the Sabbath Rest (worshipping your tail off).
 
Upvote 0

Eric Abbott

Active Member
Dec 8, 2016
60
46
35
Texas
Visit site
✟13,994.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I don't know anything about your work history, but from this comment you have not spent 5/6 days of hard, constant physical toil.
The sabeth was oa day of rest from physical work, a day when the worshipper could be 're-created' by spending time in the worship of God and time with friends and family.

For the Christian it is a time when the noise, distractions, demands etc of the world can be put to oneside and the Christian can be 're-created' by spending time in the worship of God.

A question for you.

On monday morning are you excited about the oppertunety to talk at work about the services on Sunday and the content of the sermons?
Its all I can think about! In fact I don't wait for Monday, I cant help but to talk right after I leave! You should hear our pastor, my wife is the music director there aswell, we have what we call 'Monday Night Mission' where we gather as the church and go door to door, sing hymns at nursing homes for the elder and talk to the staff, write letters to people, and pray in groups for the mission.

If I am working Monday at the day job, I then just talk to co-workers. Monday is far more exciting than the Sunday sermons due to the action involved of the great commission.

The excitement then even flows over to Tuesday, and Wednesday! My co-workers think i'm a little nuts being consumed with scripture, God is all I can talk about with them.

Its crazy, the moment I wake up in the morning, my first thought is God.. and my salvation through Jesus Christ. -- And the last thought is God before I sleep, It has been like this for me for about 7 years now. I am absolutely obsessed.
 
Upvote 0

Greg J.

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 2, 2016
3,841
1,907
Southeast Michigan
✟233,164.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates. (Deuteronomy 6:5-9, 1984 NIV)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soyeong
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,599
Hudson
✟281,635.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
So, we Christians try not to live by the law as I understand. We live now through the salvation of Christ for what He did for us,

Hello,

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so there is no sense in speaking about being saved from sin apart from the need to refraining from transgressing of the Law. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct how to do. So participating in this training by grace to live in obedience to God's Law is what salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like and what it means to receive God's grace, not something that it done in order to earn our salvation. Furthermore, Titus 2:14 says that Christ gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. God's Law is His instructions for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17), so if we believe in what Christ did for us on the cross, then that should cause us to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law (Acts 21:20) and should not cause us to return to the Lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.

Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which means that he would have taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same was he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1). Furthermore, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23) and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. There is no sense in speaking about following Jesus while refusing to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to obey by word and by example.

and we as the Christian church made a statement to the jews that we no longer live by the law,

Paul spoke about multiple different types of laws, such as God’s Law, the law of sin, and works of law, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was saying that we are not under. In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin and death that held him captive and that he served with his flesh. This was a conclusion form what he said previously, so it is the law of sin that came about to stir up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held us captive (7:6), that gave sin its power (7:8), that deceived Paul through the commandment and slew him (7:11), and that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), while God's Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death to him (7:13), and is the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20).

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Paul specified the Law that we aren't under was one where sin had dominion over us, which does not at all fit his description of God's holy, righteous, and good Law, which he delighted in obeying, which he directly said was not sin, but rather it perfectly matches his description of the law of sin. In Psalms 119:29, David asked God to show his grace to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so when we are under grace we are under God's Law and not under the law of sin.

so to make that statement bold and loud, the church changed worship days from Saturday, to Sunday.

No one has the authority to countermand God. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from what God has commanded, so those who have tried to change God's day of rest to Sunday need to repent of their sins. In Mark 7:6-13, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so we should be careful not to fall under the same criticism by hypocritically setting aside God's command to keep the 7th day Sabbath holy in order to establish our own tradition of worshiping on Sunday. Furthermore, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying what He commanded, so according to God we should reject anyone who speaks against obeying His Law. Incidentally, Christians who teach that Jesus did away with the Law is sadly one of the biggest reasons why Jews have rejected him as their Messiah

My church on the other hand, do not go to the service for the sabbath at all however, not even to rest.. but to try to emulate and look like the church movement of Acts in the upper room.

We are not going there to rest, but to learn about God in a more of 'Bible' study format and to hear what God has to say to us through the scripture readings.. then pray together as the body of Christ, and using our spiritual gifts to go outside of our church walls and to tell the lost world about what sin is, and how Christ can save them from God's judgement toward that sin when they put their faith and trust in Him alone, not by following the law or by good works.

In other words, after the Sunday service, be on the great commission all week as the church together.

So, that is my understanding on what Sunday is for me and my local church here, the emulation of the church in the book of Acts.

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's Law. So your intentions are is commendable, but I do not see how it is possible to tell the world about what sin is while not considering yourself to be under the Law that was given to reveal what sin is. If you think that you are obligated to refrain from sin, then you should consider yourself to be under God's Law. God is God, so the whole world is under God's Law and obligated to obey it otherwise, God would not have been just to judge the world with the Flood because of their sins or to judge the world in Revelation. In 2 Peter 2:6-8, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged because of their Lawless deeds even though they weren't even in a covenant relationship with Him, so they didn't get a choice of whether or not they wanted to be under God's Law and neither do we. God have given us knowledge of what He has revealed to be sin through His Law, so the choice that we do get to make us whether or not we are going to repent and obey by faith.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,773
7,919
NW England
✟1,041,499.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hello,

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so there is no sense in speaking about being saved from sin apart from the need to refraining from transgressing of the Law.

God's law, or command, to Adam was not to eat the fruit from the tree. Adam did and sinned.
The first sin came into the world because Adam disobeyed God's word.
Even though we aren't told that the Lord gave subsequent people his laws, or commands, there was much sin.

Sin was in the world long before Moses received the law on Mt Sinai.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct how to do.

Salvation is through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross; the blood of the new covenant - not good deeds.

Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which means that he would have taught full obedience to it by example

Jesus was a Jew, and said that he had come to fulfill the Jewish law.
He did not command Gentile followers to keep it. He told his disciples to teach others everything HE had taught them, not teach them to believe in me and keep the Jewish law.

and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same was he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1).

We are.
That doesn't mean that male Christians have to be circumcised, that we have to abstain from certain foods, wear clothes made from only one fibre etc etc.

There is no sense in speaking about following Jesus while refusing to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to obey by word and by example.

Jesus did not command us to follow the law that he followed. He said, "a NEW commandment I give to you; love one another". He said that the 10 commandments could be summed up in two; love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself.
Did he teach that we had to keep the Sabbath? He healed on the Sabbath, criticised those who complained, said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath and declared that he was Lord of the Sabbath.

Paul spoke about multiple different types of laws, such as God’s Law, the law of sin, and works of law, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was saying that we are not under.

Well I'm not under Jewish law because I am not Jewish, it was not given to me or my ancestors. I follow and belong to the One who has fulfilled that law, gave us a new commandment and brought in God's New Covenant, as well as his kingdom.

No one has the authority to countermand God. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from what God has commanded, so those who have tried to change God's day of rest to Sunday need to repent of their sins.

You think it is a sin to worship God on the first day of the week; the day when he raised his Son from the dead?
I think not.

In Mark 7:6-13, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so we should be careful not to fall under the same criticism by hypocritically setting aside God's command to keep the 7th day Sabbath holy in order to establish our own tradition of worshiping on Sunday.

We can, and should, worship God EVERY day and keep EVERY day holy.
God wants us to worship him in Spirit and in truth, to praise him, trust him, put him first and pray to him. We can do this every, and any, day; it's not sinful to do it on a Sunday.

Furthermore, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying what He commanded,

So he commanded Hebrew people who had just been brought out of exile in Egypt to remember that miracle - keep feasts, build tabernacles, eat unleavened bread - IN the temple. But they can't do that any more; their temple hasn't been rebuilt.
He commanded them to offer animals as sacrifices for their sins - as far as I know they don't do that any more.
If even the descendants of the people who received God's law can't keep it, how can we?

Deuteronomy is OLD Testament; OLD Covenant.
Jesus brought in and sealed the NEW Covenant.
What/where is the temple today? WE are the temple of the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 6:19.
Who/where are the priests who offer sacrifices? Jesus is our great high priest, Hebrews 7:23-28.
What is the sacrifice that takes away our sins? Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29.
What is the situation that we were rescued from? Jesus has set us free from sin, slavery to sin and eternal death. He is greater than Moses, Hebrews 3, and if we follow him, he gives us eternal life, heavenly manna, life-giving water and will lead us to the Promised Land.
What has he told us to do to remember his death and sacrifice? Break bread and drink wine. He is our Passover Lamb and he has told us to celebrate his death and sacrifice.

God have given us knowledge of what He has revealed to be sin through His Law, so the choice that we do get to make us whether or not we are going to repent and obey by faith.

Jesus' new commandment was that we should love one another as he loved us.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,599
Hudson
✟281,635.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
God's law, or command, to Adam was not to eat the fruit from the tree. Adam did and sinned.
The first sin came into the world because Adam disobeyed God's word.
Even though we aren't told that the Lord gave subsequent people his laws, or commands, there was much sin.

Sin was in the world long before Moses received the law on Mt Sinai.

I agree that sin was in the world before the Mosaic Law was given (Romans 5:13), so the actions that are sinful aren't derived from the Mosaic Law, but rather the Law revealed what has always been and will always be sinful. For example, it has always been and will always be sinful to hate our brother (Genesis 4:7) no matter how many covenants God makes, so any instructions that God has ever given for how refrain from sin will always be valid no matter which covenant we are under.

God's Law was given to teach us how to distinguish between good and evil, so I think it is likely that Adam and Eve gained full knowledge of it when they ate of the tree of good and evil.

Salvation is through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross; the blood of the new covenant - not good deeds.

I agree, nevertheless, it is also true that Titus 2:11-14 describes our salvation from living in disobedience to God as being trained by grace to live in obedience to Him. Furthermore, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from living in disobedience to God and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for living in obedience to Him. So being trained by grace to obey God is not something done to earn our salvation, but rather it is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God looks like.

Jesus was a Jew, and said that he had come to fulfill the Jewish law.
He did not command Gentile followers to keep it. He told his disciples to teach others everything HE had taught them, not teach them to believe in me and keep the Jewish law.

Jesus rarely interacted with Gentiles, that argument from silence doesn't work. Jesus taught his disciples to obey the Mosaic Law both by word and by example, so that would certainly be part of the Great Commission, so it doesn't make any sense for Gentiles to want to become his follower, but not want to follow what he taught his followers to obey by word and by example. Gentiles are told not to sin and sin is defined as the transgression of the Law, so straightforwardly that means that Gentiles should obey the Law.

"To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in Matthew 5, this is precisely what he then proceeded to do six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to obeying the Law as it should be obeyed, and refers to something countless people have done, not to something unique to Christ. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret it in the same way as fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, namely obeying it as it should be, not as doing away with it. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which again referred to causing Gentiles to become fully obedient to it in word and in deed, not to doing away with it.

We are.
That doesn't mean that male Christians have to be circumcised, that we have to abstain from certain foods, wear clothes made from only one fibre etc etc.

If you exempt yourself from following things that Jesus taught by example, then you are not following what he taught by example. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, such as Leviticus 11:44-45.

Jesus did not command us to follow the law that he followed. He said, "a NEW commandment I give to you; love one another". He said that the 10 commandments could be summed up in two; love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself.

All of the 613 commandments in the OT and 1,050 commandments in the NT can be put into one or both of the categories of being God's instructions for how to love Him or for how to love our neighbor, so the command to love does not replace the other commandments, but rather it is the essence of them. In other words, Christ's obedience to the greatest two commandments looked exactly like complete his obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is how we are to love as he loved.

Did he teach that we had to keep the Sabbath? He healed on the Sabbath, criticised those who complained, said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath and declared that he was Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, including setting an example for us to follow of keeping it throughout his ministry and teaching how to keep through his interactions with the Pharisees. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, so it was made for our benefit, not for our detriment, so it was never intended to be used as an excuse to avoid helping someone who needed medical attention, which is why Jesus ruled that it is lawful to heal on the Sabbath. If Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and if he is your Lord, then you should keep the Sabbath.

Well I'm not under Jewish law because I am not Jewish, it was not given to me or my ancestors. I follow and belong to the One who has fulfilled that law, gave us a new commandment and brought in God's New Covenant, as well as his kingdom.

It's not Jewish law; it's God's Law. There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others, so the Law was not given as instructions for how to live as a Jew, but rather it was given as instructions to God's followers for how to express His character traits, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. When we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God gives us His righteousness and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in accordance with His instructions for how to do that found in His Law. Jesus expressed the character traits of the Father through His actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, and our sanctification is about being made to be like him, to have and to express the same character traits and to be restored to God's image. You don't have to become a Jew in order to follow the Jewish Messiah, but you do need to follow what he taught by word and by example.

If Gentiles have never be obligated to obey God's Law, then Gentiles have never needed Christ to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness. However, Gentiles are obligated to refrain from sin and sin is the transgression of God's Law, so Gentiles are obligated to obey it. There were more than just Jews at the foot of Sinai.

You think it is a sin to worship God on the first day of the week; the day when he raised his Son from the dead?
I think not.

We can, and should, worship God EVERY day and keep EVERY day holy.
God wants us to worship him in Spirit and in truth, to praise him, trust him, put him first and pray to him. We can do this every, and any, day; it's not sinful to do it on a Sunday.

The Israelites had daily prayers and offerings, so I agree that it is good to worship God on every day. However, it is sinful to set aside God's command to keep the Sabbath holy in order to establish your own tradition of worshiping in Sunday. Something that is holy is set apart by God for a specific purpose and in order for something to be set apart there needs to be something else that it is set apart from, so if every day is holy, then no day is holy. If you treat the Sabbath in the same way as you treat every other day, then you are not treating it as holy and what is holy to God should be treated as holy by us. If we did on every day what God wants us to do on the Sabbath, then we would do no work, but God also wants us to work. You can't worship God in spirit and in truth by disobeying His command to keep the Sabbath holy. You can't trust God when you think that you know better than Him how He wants to be worshiped.

So he commanded Hebrew people who had just been brought out of exile in Egypt to remember that miracle - keep feasts, build tabernacles, eat unleavened bread - IN the temple. But they can't do that any more; their temple hasn't been rebuilt.
He commanded them to offer animals as sacrifices for their sins - as far as I know they don't do that any more.
If even the descendants of the people who received God's law can't keep it, how can we?

When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return was to repent and to return to obedience to God's Law, which required them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access to while they were in exile, so God honored it when they did the things that they could do to the best of their ability. For example, they still kept saying the temple prayers.

Deuteronomy is OLD Testament; OLD Covenant.
Jesus brought in and sealed the NEW Covenant.
What/where is the temple today? WE are the temple of the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 6:19.
Who/where are the priests who offer sacrifices? Jesus is our great high priest, Hebrews 7:23-28.
What is the sacrifice that takes away our sins? Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29.
What is the situation that we were rescued from? Jesus has set us free from sin, slavery to sin and eternal death. He is greater than Moses, Hebrews 3, and if we follow him, he gives us eternal life, heavenly manna, life-giving water and will lead us to the Promised Land.
What has he told us to do to remember his death and sacrifice? Break bread and drink wine. He is our Passover Lamb and he has told us to celebrate his death and sacrifice.

While it is true that we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, were are nevertheless still under the same God with the same ways and therefore the same instructions for how to walk in His ways. For example, if the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness changed when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, Gd's eternal righteousness and eternal instructions for how to act in accordance with His righteousness did not become obsolete along with it. As such, any instructions that God has given for how to practice righteousness will always be valid not matter which covenant we are under, but as part of the New Covenant we are told that those who do not follow those instructions are not children of God (1 John 3:10).

Jesus' new commandment was that we should love one another as he loved us.

The command to love our neighbor can be found in Leviticus 19:18, so he was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by adding a brand new commandment, but what is new about it is the quality of the example by which we are to love our neighbor, and indeed the Greek word used refers to newness with respect to quality rather than with respect to time:

3501 /néos ("new on the scene") suggests something "new in time" – in contrast to its near-synonym (2537 /kainós, "new in quality").

We should love ourselves as Jesus loves us, so he was fulfilling Leviticus 19:18 by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it.
 
Upvote 0

Eric Abbott

Active Member
Dec 8, 2016
60
46
35
Texas
Visit site
✟13,994.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Hello,

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so there is no sense in speaking about being saved from sin apart from the need to refraining from transgressing of the Law. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct how to do. So participating in this training by grace to live in obedience to God's Law is what salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like and what it means to receive God's grace, not something that it done in order to earn our salvation. Furthermore, Titus 2:14 says that Christ gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. God's Law is His instructions for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17), so if we believe in what Christ did for us on the cross, then that should cause us to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law (Acts 21:20) and should not cause us to return to the Lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.

Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which means that he would have taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same was he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1). Furthermore, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23) and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. There is no sense in speaking about following Jesus while refusing to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to obey by word and by example.



Paul spoke about multiple different types of laws, such as God’s Law, the law of sin, and works of law, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was saying that we are not under. In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin and death that held him captive and that he served with his flesh. This was a conclusion form what he said previously, so it is the law of sin that came about to stir up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held us captive (7:6), that gave sin its power (7:8), that deceived Paul through the commandment and slew him (7:11), and that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), while God's Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death to him (7:13), and is the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20).

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Paul specified the Law that we aren't under was one where sin had dominion over us, which does not at all fit his description of God's holy, righteous, and good Law, which he delighted in obeying, which he directly said was not sin, but rather it perfectly matches his description of the law of sin. In Psalms 119:29, David asked God to show his grace to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so when we are under grace we are under God's Law and not under the law of sin.



No one has the authority to countermand God. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from what God has commanded, so those who have tried to change God's day of rest to Sunday need to repent of their sins. In Mark 7:6-13, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so we should be careful not to fall under the same criticism by hypocritically setting aside God's command to keep the 7th day Sabbath holy in order to establish our own tradition of worshiping on Sunday. Furthermore, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying what He commanded, so according to God we should reject anyone who speaks against obeying His Law. Incidentally, Christians who teach that Jesus did away with the Law is sadly one of the biggest reasons why Jews have rejected him as their Messiah



The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's Law. So your intentions are is commendable, but I do not see how it is possible to tell the world about what sin is while not considering yourself to be under the Law that was given to reveal what sin is. If you think that you are obligated to refrain from sin, then you should consider yourself to be under God's Law. God is God, so the whole world is under God's Law and obligated to obey it otherwise, God would not have been just to judge the world with the Flood because of their sins or to judge the world in Revelation. In 2 Peter 2:6-8, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged because of their Lawless deeds even though they weren't even in a covenant relationship with Him, so they didn't get a choice of whether or not they wanted to be under God's Law and neither do we. God have given us knowledge of what He has revealed to be sin through His Law, so the choice that we do get to make us whether or not we are going to repent and obey by faith.

Here's the thing; You say I don't think I am ruled by the law;;
When I was ruled by the law, I was not saved, and when I sinned against God's law, I loved it.
I desired the good feelings that sin gave me. I knew it was wrong, but I was not saved, so I still
honestly just did not care. I was an agnostic.

-- Part 2 of my life;; I became more into Christianity.. I went to church, and experimented with the whole 'Jesus Thing' -- I then tried to follow the rules of God's law.. I said I was a believer.. yet still questioned. I was following God's law because I felt I had to to earn something good, like heaven in return.

Part 3 -- I came to know Jesus personally.. 2 years later, desires of sin that I use to love left me, it reversed, instead of trying to follow God's law, I was marked with the Holy Spirit, and I now KNOW I am saved regardless due to the Holy Spirit living in me.

Following the law is a built in desire, I don't do it because I have to, I do it because I WANT to..

One of those desires is being on the great commission and LOOK like the church of Acts.

I think if you feel like your forced to follow God's commands to you, chances are your probably not saved. There is no right, or wrong answer. You will WANT to naturally have the desires to follow his commands because you have an obsession love for Him.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,599
Hudson
✟281,635.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Here's the thing; You say I don't think I am ruled by the law;;
When I was ruled by the law, I was not saved, and when I sinned against God's law, I loved it.
I desired the good feelings that sin gave me. I knew it was wrong, but I was not saved, so I still
honestly just did not care. I was an agnostic.

I would say that you were ruled by the law of sin rather than God's Law. When God's law reveals our sins, then that should lead us to repentance and cause us to sin less, however, Paul spoke about a law of sin that was working within him to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which caused sin to increase.

-- Part 2 of my life;; I became more into Christianity.. I went to church, and experimented with the whole 'Jesus Thing' -- I then tried to follow the rules of God's law.. I said I was a believer.. yet still questioned. I was following God's law because I felt I had to to earn something good, like heaven in return.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law and in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love, and has never been about trying to earn something in return for our obedience.

Part 3 -- I came to know Jesus personally.. 2 years later, desires of sin that I use to love left me, it reversed, instead of trying to follow God's law, I was marked with the Holy Spirit, and I now KNOW I am saved regardless due to the Holy Spirit living in me.

In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's Law, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law, and in Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it, so I don't see following the leading of the Spirit as being distinct from following God's Law.

Following the law is a built in desire, I don't do it because I have to, I do it because I WANT to..

One of those desires is being on the great commission and LOOK like the church of Acts.

I think if you feel like your forced to follow God's commands to you, chances are your probably not saved. There is no right, or wrong answer. You will WANT to naturally have the desires to follow his commands because you have an obsession love for Him.

I agree that we should obey God's Law is because we should want to express our love for Him, because we want to express our faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live, because we want to grow in a deeper relationship with Him, because we want to learn how to walk in His ways, because He wants to bless us, and because He has said that His Law is for our own good. However, we might not always be in situations where we want to obey God, where He has asked us to do something that we would prefer not to do, where we nevertheless must submit to His commands because we have confessed that Jesus is Lord.

You've told me that you want to obey God's Law, so when He has commanded His followers to keep the 7th day Sabbath holy, then that is what you should want to do.
 
Upvote 0

Eric Abbott

Active Member
Dec 8, 2016
60
46
35
Texas
Visit site
✟13,994.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I would say that you were ruled by the law of sin rather than God's Law. When God's law reveals our sins, then that should lead us to repentance and cause us to sin less, however, Paul spoke about a law of sin that was working within him to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which caused sin to increase.



In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law and in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love, and has never been about trying to earn something in return for our obedience.



In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's Law, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law, and in Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it, so I don't see following the leading of the Spirit as being distinct from following God's Law.



I agree that we should obey God's Law is because we should want to express our love for Him, because we want to express our faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live, because we want to grow in a deeper relationship with Him, because we want to learn how to walk in His ways, because He wants to bless us, and because He has said that His Law is for our own good. However, we might not always be in situations where we want to obey God, where He has asked us to do something that we would prefer not to do, where we nevertheless must submit to His commands because we have confessed that Jesus is Lord.

You've told me that you want to obey God's Law, so when He has commanded His followers to keep the 7th day Sabbath holy, then that is what you should want to do.
Oh yes I keep the sabbath (7th) day Holy.. which is Saturday, I rest when I am not scheduled. But what if I said a group of Christ followers want to emulate and carry out God's great commission on Sunday, and the Sunday services were NOT about the Sabbath at all, since its not the sabbath and our intentions of Sunday service is not to rest, but to learn the bible together? We also have church on Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays.

The intentions behind it is where it counts. We are not going on Sunday to replace the sabbath, but we see Sunday like any other working day -- such as Wednesday, and we understand full well we are not there to rest on Sunday, that would not make sense, since it is NOT the sabbath.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soyeong
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,599
Hudson
✟281,635.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Oh yes I keep the sabbath (7th) day Holy.. which is Saturday, I rest when I am not scheduled. But what if I said a group of Christ followers want to emulate and carry out God's great commission on Sunday, and the Sunday services were NOT about the Sabbath at all, since its not the sabbath and our intentions of Sunday service is not to rest, but to learn the bible together? We also have church on Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays.

The intentions behind it is where it counts. We are not going on Sunday to replace the sabbath, but we see Sunday like any other working day -- such as Wednesday, and we understand full well we are not there to rest on Sunday, that would not make sense, since it is NOT the sabbath.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you, I thought you holding the position that we no longer live by the Law and that we now worship on Sunday instead of keeping the Sabbath holy. There's nothing wrong with serving God throughout the week, and in fact that is something that should be commended. So where do you stand on keeping God's other holy days?
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,773
7,919
NW England
✟1,041,499.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus rarely interacted with Gentiles, that argument from silence doesn't work.

It's not an argument from silence.
He spoke to the woman at the well in Samaria, John 4. In John's Gospel she was the first person that heard that Jesus was the Messiah.
He spoke to a Greek woman from Syro-Phoenicea, Mark 7:24-30 and healed her daughter.
He lived in a country that was occupied by Gentiles - Romans, who worshipped many gods; healed a centurion's servant and was taken before Pilate and Herod before he was crucified.
He did not tell any of them to go and obey the Jewish law, and did not refuse to talk to and heal them because they didn't obey it. Even if he'd never met a gentile at all, he still did not tell his disciples to go into the world, teach the Jewish law to people and then tell them about him. He told them to "teach them everything I have taught you".

"To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3).

To fulfil the law means to complete, satisfy, realise, accomplish it.

The law said that an animal should be offered as a sacrifice for sin. Jesus was the spotless Lamb of God, 1 Peter 1:19-20, who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29.
The law said that the Hebrews should be holy, dedicated to God, have no god before him, make no idol for themselves and should do certain things to shoe that they were holy and set apart from everyone else. Jesus told us to put God first, Matthew 6:33, to love him with all our hearts, minds and strength. He said that we are not of the world, John 17:15-16 and that people will hate us because we belong to him and they hated him, John 15:18-19. Jesus said he would send his Holy Spirit to his disciples. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us holy and is transforming us to be like Jesus, 2 Corinthians 3:18.
Jesus said that it is not what goes into someone's mouth that makes them unclean but what comes out of it. He also said that our mouth speaks what is in our hearts - and by his death on the cross he has made it possible for us to be clean; clean minds, clean hearts.

If you exempt yourself from following things that Jesus taught by example, then you are not following what he taught by example.

I'm not exempting myself from anything.
I not only follow Jesus, but am IN Jesus. Jesus never sinned, but according to those around him he broke the law by healing on the Sabbath, by allowing his disciples to pick and grind corn on the Sabbath and by not ritually washing their hands before eating. He also touched lepers, a woman who was bleeding, and a dead girl.
He did not teach people to keep one special day as holy and worship God on that day - he lived a holy life and worshipped God continuously.

In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, such as Leviticus 11:44-45.

In the OT, God rescued the nation from slavery and death, led them to Sinai and gave them his word - he was their Saviour and they were his people. They were told to abstain from certain foods, not touch people with skin conditions, wear clothes with only one fibre and most importantly, not marry foreigners; people who didn't believe in and worship one God. These were the things that THEY, the people God had rescued from slavery and death, were to do to show that they were different and his people.
God did not rescue me, nor my ancestors, from Egypt. But his Son HAS rescued me from slavery, sin and death. Jesus, the Word of God, has saved and forgiven me, lives in me and has given me his Spirit, who assures me that I am a child of God.
So I follow Jesus.

But to say that Jesus taught the law by example so he must have meant that all gentiles should obey the law too, is an argument from silence - which you have just said, doesn't work. Where did he teach that all his followers should be taught the Mosaic law and keep that? Nowhere. In fact Paul, a former Pharisee, taught that if anyone insisted on circumcision, also God's law, they were saying that Jesus' death counted for nothing.

Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, including setting an example for us to follow of keeping it

While it is true that we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant,

So one minute you are saying that Jesus showed us how to walk in perfect obedience to the Mosaic law, and the next you are conceding that we do not live under the Mosaic law.

so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete,

And now you agree the the Mosaic Covenant is obsolete.

We are under a New Covenant which was prophesied by God, Jeremiah 31:31-34, and brought in and sealed by his Son, Matthew 26:28.
Jesus makes us righteous before God, 2 Corinthians 5:21, and his Spirit makes us holy, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

In addition, no one has ever explained HOW to keep the Sabbath. What does it mean?
Not working on a Saturday? I don't.
Worshipping God on a Saturday? I do.
Sitting around doing nothing on a Saturday? I might do if I thought that God wanted me to and it was his will - but like his Son, I prefer to do good and help others.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,662.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Oh yes I keep the sabbath (7th) day Holy.. which is Saturday, I rest when I am not scheduled. But what if I said a group of Christ followers want to emulate and carry out God's great commission on Sunday, and the Sunday services were NOT about the Sabbath at all, since its not the sabbath and our intentions of Sunday service is not to rest, but to learn the bible together? We also have church on Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays.

The intentions behind it is where it counts. We are not going on Sunday to replace the sabbath, but we see Sunday like any other working day -- such as Wednesday, and we understand full well we are not there to rest on Sunday, that would not make sense, since it is NOT the sabbath.
Read this again and let me know where I am wrong?
The Priests "worked" their tails off on Saturday, but it was not "work", because it was worship (obeying God's commands and offering up that obedience as worship) which is never work, so they observed the Sabbath Rest in worshipping!! If the priest had been "paid" for what they did you would have paid worshippers (like the pagans did) but that was not the case since the Priestly tribe was to be given money by the other tribes through the tribe of Levi, no matter what they did. (Do you think God would like people to be paid to worship Him?)

Today you are part of the priestly tribe and you get to constantly be doing stuff out of obedience to God (even doing stuff to help your family, out of obedience to God) and can offer up to God constantly your obedience (worship) since you are constantly carrying your cross and offering yourself up. This is the Jubilee Age, so your constantly in the Sabbath Rest (worshipping your tail off).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eric Abbott
Upvote 0

Eric Abbott

Active Member
Dec 8, 2016
60
46
35
Texas
Visit site
✟13,994.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Read this again and let me know where I am wrong?
The Priests "worked" their tails off on Saturday, but it was not "work", because it was worship (obeying God's commands and offering up that obedience as worship) which is never work, so they observed the Sabbath Rest in worshipping!! If the priest had been "paid" for what they did you would have paid worshippers (like the pagans did) but that was not the case since the Priestly tribe was to be given money by the other tribes through the tribe of Levi, no matter what they did. (Do you think God would like people to be paid to worship Him?)

Today you are part of the priestly tribe and you get to constantly be doing stuff out of obedience to God (even doing stuff to help your family, out of obedience to God) and can offer up to God constantly your obedience (worship) since you are constantly carrying your cross and offering yourself up. This is the Jubilee Age, so your constantly in the Sabbath Rest (worshipping your tail off).
Most people don't see it this way, i worship everyday and honestly my saturdays dont feel like anything special other than its the sabbath, because i cant really add more worship in than i already do any other day- God is constantly on my mind... To the point that i join christian forums and talk about it to compete strangers and blog about his word from the excitement His holy spirit gives me even at the day job... What can i do more on saturday than i dont do any other day to make it feel more different? Maybe worship less on other days?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,662.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Most people don't see it this way, i worship everyday and honestly my saturdays dont feel like anything special other than its the sabbath, because i cant really add more worship in than i already do any other day- God is constantly on my mind... To the point that i join christian forums and talk about it to compete strangers and blog about his word from the excitement His holy spirit gives me even at the day job... What can i do more on saturday than i dont do any other day to make it feel more different? Maybe worship less on other days?
very good!!
 
Upvote 0