Your pastor and his wife

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Suit yourself. On this forum I've had a Baptist question my Christianity because I don't believe in giants like he does. He showed me the Bible verses for why he thinks they're real. I've had another Baptist tell me that Christians who believe in the Bible and trust it to be literal can't believe in NASA or a spherical Earth. Several Baptists have said the Earth is flat, & have said that if you don't believe that, you're wrong, full-stop. Of course the Earth isn't flat. Pretty sure there are folks on this forum who believe in human slavery too, and insist that's a Biblical truth. So yeah that definitely takes the sting out of people thinking it's wrong, full-stop for women to be pastors because of their interpretation of select verses. It's my conviction that it's Godly, full-stop.

It is nonsensical for anyone to accuse you of not being a Christian because you disagree on minor doctrinal issues, like whether women can be pastors. I have my own opinions on certain minor issues — and, for some of them, I do firmly believe that I am correct —, but, although I may reject other opinions as untrue or unbiblical, I would never reject them as un-Christian or heretical. In other words, we seem to disagree on a number of points, but I would never dare to question your Christianity on these grounds (see also post #31).

Regarding the points you have brought up, I believe that:

• The Earth is obviously round, and I see no reason whatsoever to reject that;
• Giants existed at the time, because the Bible says it, and I see no reason whatsoever to reject that;
• Human slavery is not a problem in itself (or else, the Bible would condemn it), but it is rather the abuse of human slavery that is the problem — however, I am absolutely against any kind of human slavery nowadays, since 1) it is unnecessary, and 2) history has shown countless times that it leads very easily to abuse (in other words, for slavery to exist in a manner which would be biblically acceptable, it would have to exist under circumstances which we, in the 21st-century, do not tend to associate with the word ‘slavery’ — so, I would believe in human slavery as the Bible describes it, but not in the way we think of it nowadays);
• Women cannot be pastors, since the Bible is clear on that, and I see no reason whatsoever to reject that.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Galatians 3:27-28 New International Version (NIV)

27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Read the passage in context, and you will see that these verses refer to salvation, not functions in the church. ‘It is abundantly clear that this interpretation does damage to the context of the verse. In Galatians, Paul is demonstrating the great truth of justification by faith alone and not by works (Galatians 2:16). In Galatians 3:15-29, Paul argues for justification on the differences between the law and the promise. Galatians 3:28 fits into Paul's argument that all who are in Christ are Abraham's offspring by faith and heirs to the promise (Galatians 3:29). The context of this passage makes it clear Paul is referring to salvation, not roles in the church. In other words, salvation is given freely to all without respect to external factors such as ethnicity, economic status, or gender. To stretch this context to also apply to gender roles in the church goes far beyond and outside of the argument Paul was making’ (from http://www.gotquestions.org/complementarianism-vs-egalitarianism.html).

If Paul really meant to say that women can become pastors, he (and, ultimately, God) would be contradicting himself. The same thing actually goes for when he says ‘[there is] neither slave nor free’, and yet he also gives instructions for slaves to submit to their masters and for masters to be nice to their slaves (Ephesians 6:5-9). So, the key in this verse is that it must be read in context.

 

[Butterfly99]

It is nonsensical for anyone to accuse you of not being a Christian because you disagree on minor doctrinal issues, like whether women can be pastors. I have my own opinions on certain minor issues — and, for some of them, I do firmly believe that I am correct —, but, although I may reject other opinions as untrue or unbiblical, I would never reject them as un-Christian or heretical. In other words, we seem to disagree on a number of points, but I would never dare to question your Christianity on these grounds.

Regarding the points you have brought up, I believe that:

• The Earth is obviously round, and I see no reason whatsoever to reject that;
• Giants existed at the time, because the Bible says it, and I see no reason whatsoever to reject that;
• Human slavery is not a problem in itself (or else, the Bible would condemn it), but it is rather the abuse of human slavery that is the problem — however, I am absolutely against any kind of human slavery nowadays, since 1) it is unnecessary, and 2) history has shown countless times that it leads very easily to abuse (in other words, for slavery to exist in a manner which would be biblically acceptable, it would have to exist under circumstances which we, in the 21st-century, do not tend to associate with the word ‘slavery’ — so, I would believe in human slavery as the Bible describes it, but not in the way we think of it nowadays);
• Women cannot be pastors, since the Bible is clear on that, and I see no reason whatsoever to reject that.

Well the point is that folks get really adamant that their interpretation of scripture is the only one that is correct, even though other Christians have equally valid reasons for disagreeing strongly. Our Bible isn't nearly as clear as you'd like to think it is about women being pastors, & that's precisely why so many Bible-believing churches have ordained women for a very long time. I can't provide you w the scriptural reasons cause I'm not a Baptist & this is the Baptist section. I'm a Methodist & I was told I'm allowed to give my beliefs but not to use scripture to teach the reasons for them so I'm at a giant disadvantage. Like I told you before, if you actually have any interest in learning more on this from the Bible you are welcome to send me a PM & it will be my privilege to share. It seems like you'd want to be receptive to learning but that's your choice. My mom went to Duke for 3 yrs of divinity studies for her M.Div, & all that was after 4 yrs of college doing religious studies @ UVA. At 16 she sure didn't think she knew it all about the Bible & was eager to learn as much as she could. She still tries to learn about the Bible every day.

 

[Goodbook]

..I asked a chaplain on CF this question and basically he said there was no reason to reject what the Bible says about Paul's recommendations for both men and women.

I also asked one of my friends who is a secretary in a presy church. She actually has degrees in theology. She's ok with it and told me about how she does know some women pastors and so I asked her what the women pastors husband does and is HE ok with it.
Well, she said that her husband was also in the ministry like a teacher or something. He's just not, as she says 'the boss', she is. And this was not a youth post but like presiding over an entire church.

So I surmised if her husband is fine with having is wife teach over him and authority then can't really argue with that even though its for me and many others, seems contrary to the Bible. But if people have a problem with that they don't need to go to that church. Note - this is a presy church not a baptist, so as far as I know they tend to interpret the Bible in a different way as what a baptist would.

I am not going to say she is not a christian because of this, there are many areas in the Bible that lots of people skip over and don't take serious. But the main reason I don't go to a presy church is not because of things like women pastors - not that the one I had to had them..but because of this skipping over parts of the bible that are uncomfortable.
For example, infant baptism is another issue and also, some actually don't believe in the resurrection, which is a core christian belief, and think that it doesn't matter what happens to our bodies at all. So its ok to burn them up as its cheaper. This belief or lack of believe in our bodily resurrection really shocked me.

 

[baptist4life]

Our Bible isn't nearly as clear as you'd like to think it is about women being pastors.............

Yes it is..........VERY clear.

 

[Goodbook]

I mean you either take Gods Word for it or you don't.

There's no point having a scripture run around and dismissing all those church letters in the New Testament on how church ought to be. While its not good to be legalistic about it's also wrong to just be so laissez faire and basically call Paul, who was called on by Jesus to be apostle to the gentiles, old fashioned or imply he was just wrong about order in the church. His words are in the Bible for a reason. And he did give reasons from the Old Testament going back to Adam and Eve why he would not allow women to teach over men.

It might not be to your liking but as a woman myself I find that he wrote that to safeguard the church. There's plenty of scope for women in the church without crying unfair just because women can't be ordained or hold offices. Even Timothy was taught by his grandmother from a young age and had more influence than a man would as that is the BEST time to teach. When children are young not when they are old and perhaps hardened and made more difficult because of sin and its effects etc.

 

[baptist4life]

..I asked a chaplain ......
I also asked one of my friends ......

Perhaps you should ask God.......He's very clear on it!

 

[Goodbook]

I know what God says I just asked a chaplain to see what he would say on the matter.
It's not like I don't know.

 

[Goodbook]

I just wanted to share what he said as chaplains are on CF and looking after us in a recognised pastoral role..even if it's online. And they are in positions of authority on CF that is why they are chaplains...I think they really do pray over each issue they are presented with and also, they have years of experience. It's not like they ordained themselves.
We can ask mods for help but often they might have their own opinions.

 

[Goodbook]

Well the one I asked said he pastored a non-denom church so he wasn't even baptist but he agreed with what the Bible said.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Well the point is that folks get really adamant that their interpretation of scripture is the only one that is correct, even though other Christians have equally valid reasons for disagreeing strongly. Our Bible isn't nearly as clear as you'd like to think it is about women being pastors, & that's precisely why so many Bible-believing churches have ordained women for a very long time. I can't provide you w the scriptural reasons cause I'm not a Baptist & this is the Baptist section. I'm a Methodist & I was told I'm allowed to give my beliefs but not to use scripture to teach the reasons for them so I'm at a giant disadvantage. Like I told you before, if you actually have any interest in learning more on this from the Bible you are welcome to send me a PM & it will be my privilege to share. It seems like you'd want to be receptive to learning but that's your choice. My mom went to Duke for 3 yrs of divinity studies for her M.Div, & all that was after 4 yrs of college doing religious studies @ UVA. At 16 she sure didn't think she knew it all about the Bible & was eager to learn as much as she could. She still tries to learn about the Bible every day.

There are two types of minor doctrinal issues: 1) the ones which I believe the Bible makes it clear enough which interpretation is correct (e.g., the ordination of women, evolution, election unto salvation...); and 2) the ones about which I believe the Bible is not sufficiently clear, but where we may still determine the most likely theories (e.g., the age of the Earth, the timing of the Rapture, the identity of the 144,000...). If you disagree with my belief in the first issues, I may reject your belief as unbiblical, but never as heretical; if you disagree with my belief in the second issues, I will never reject your belief.

Regarding a private message, I will do it soon, because I'm curious to know which biblical reasons you find in favour of the ordination of women. To me, the Bible is abundantly clear. Surely you remember my participation, a few weeks ago, in this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-ordination-of-women.7856764/page-5#post-68841778 (post #88), where I explained why I believe in this. We had a pleasant conversation, and you said I was really nice — and I said the same thing about you. You explained that your mother had advised you not to get into such debates, so you did not post any Scripture to prove your case. In fact, until that thread was closed down, I did not receive any good arguments against my belief. If you have anything better to tell me, I would surely like to know!

God bless you!

 

[Goodbook]

I do remember on other forums not this one, when a woman would get on her soapbox and basically try to harangue the men online with her own ideas about scripture.

I just thought lady...you are doing God no favours.

 

[Butterfly99]

I mean you either take Gods Word for it or you don't.

Oh Goodbook, for gracious sakes. I most certainly take God's word for it. That's exactly why I spend a whole lot more time caring about what folks who've dedicated their lives to studying the Bible as their profession have to say about it over what folks on the internet believe based on their understanding of scripture. There's a pretty good reason why most divinity schools & many denominations disagree with your take on those scriptures.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

[...] Like I told you before, if you actually have any interest in learning more on this from the Bible you are welcome to send me a PM & it will be my privilege to share. [...]

Er... I have just tried to send you a private message, but it doesn't work. It seems I do not have permission to start a conversation with you or to see your profile. Why is that? I used to be able to do that. We chatted one time. Could you fix that, please? Thanks!

 

[Goodbook]

Hmm well I went to an anglican church for a carol service and they dont really call their pastors pastors they call them vicars. I didnt get a chance to chat with him and his wife but I remember them being friendly the last time I went, and also, his wife did not speak but of course he did. His wife actually has the same name as me so I remember her!!!

I dont think ive ever been to a church that had women as head pastors. The only time would have been at a womens conference. Although i do recall a more pentecostal congregation that had a very chatty lady who was like a co-pastor, but all she talked about was bragging how she got married. I kinda thought well good for you but not really relevant. She was tossing scriptures right and left but it was more like testimony than actual teaching.

I thought well her husband could have just got up and said he married this lady and left it at that, she didnt have to go on and on about it.

 

[Goodbook]

I know this presy pastor and his wife. He was saying to his secretary that she ought to get up and preach one day. Shes the one with the theology degree. Anyway, she demurred. I think the real reason is that the pastor wants to take a break from pastoring and let the women do his job. But isnt that just being a bit lazy?!

I think if God has called someone to be a pastor he cant just dump his responisbilities on his wife or someone else.
But then theres also the other extreme where a pastor may get puffed up by being the go to person and start thinking hes God himself. Uh no. Thats why the advice given to Timothy is that ministers must not be novices in the faith. Even though Timothy was young he had a good grounding in scripture which was what his grandmother taught and showed him from an early age.

 

[classicalhero]

Anyway.
Just to reiterate, in case some people dont understand english.
When a women marries she becomes a wife.
When a man marries, he becomes a husband.

In timothy, it does say that to have an office of a bishop...which is another word for pastor, a man must be the husband of one wife.

Thats why catholic priests cannot be called pastors or bishops. They dont have wives.
I think God wants pastors to be married because they then know how to rule a household and having that experience helps them with the wider household of God.

Im sad that my pastors wife died but i think my pastor having gone through it can help comfort others whove been widowed. And he hasnt lost his faith.

I think also that God wants them to lead by example, so they show what marriage is really all about

 

[Goodbook]

Its interesting that Paul never married yet he was writing that if you desire the office of a bishop you need to be the husband of one wife.

But then Paul wasnt a pastor or bishop he was an apostle. i do think that God sees ministry as a partnership and particularly ministering together is effective in families if its to be a church in one locality.
Paul had a missionary partner in Barnabas so he wasnt evangelising all alone. But as he was traveling heaps having a family would have been impractical.

 

[98cwitr]

Its interesting that Paul never married yet he was writing that if you desire the office of a bishop you need to be the husband of one wife.

But then Paul wasnt a pastor or bishop he was an apostle. i do think that God sees ministry as a partnership and particularly ministering together is effective in families if its to be a church in one locality.
Paul had a missionary partner in Barnabas so he wasnt evangelising all alone. But as he was traveling heaps having a family would have been impractical.

I don't read it as a prerequisite of being a deacon is to be married, but simply that polygamy was not a trait of someone qualified to be a deacon. Paul says that if you can stay unmarried and have enough self control to remain celibate then you'll keep your mind on the things of God and not your spouse...and I think that is an excellent mindset and heart of a person going to be a deacon or pastor (1 Cor 7).

 

[Goodbook]

i think its only pastors/bishops. It doesn't say for deacons.
Because it does specify what a bishops' wife ought to be like as well, otherwise it wouldn't say anything.

I could explore scripture on that and get back to this thread..but does say for a bishop I recall that he must be able to rule his own household, there's no household to speak of if he's just alone and single.