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Featured Your not under the law, you are under grace...?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neogaia777, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I just know I am moving to a place where I no longer need my own will anymore (went into above a bit), it's just unnecessary now, may have been something I needed for a time, in my life, but, not so much, now...

    Our wills for my life are becoming "one" now, essentially... But, I'm still in process with this... I can tell every time I sin, it is my own will going against his for me, but, when I'm not sinning, were beginning to essentially, act as "one" now...

    Peace,

    God Bless!
     
  2. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    I was depressed because of sin in my life that God told me to stop doing already. I don't believe as you do that God wants to keep us in sin to humble us. Sin is our fault, and the actions we make are our responsibility. This has nothing to do with pride in being righteous, but simply getting clean. To say otherwise is detrimental to the idea of repentance from godly sorrow as the bible describes. When you say "but it went God's way instead", that makes no biblical sense. If God wants me to be holy, he doesn't want me in sin, at all. Any time we sin, it's going against God's way.

    Well you could start with describing how you personally overcome temptation these days. When you're tempted to sin, do you coach yourself out of sin, and go read the bible, or are you never tempted these days?
    For the rest of us mere men, we are tempted, and we must resist temptations with our own wills as God commands.

    So, if you're not trying anything now, are you God? Do you claim to use the will of God as your own?
    OR are you being humble and submitting to God with your will, as he commands?
    What's really odd to me is this quote,
    See the bold. That's weird. Is that what you think I'm saying here, because it's not. First off, I'm a christian, so even if I do something with my own will, it is with God that I work. I'm not an unbeliever. Anyways, I've heard similar phrases used by others before, and what bothers me is simply not understanding what that logically even means. It doesn't seem reasonable to say, "I'm not doing anything, it's God that's doing it". Imagine a guy driving a car, and he sees an attractive women jogging, remember lust in the heart is a sin, but he hasn't sinned yet, he can choose not to set his eyes on her. What would the right thing to do be?
    a. Try to resist temptation with effort, as commanded by God, being a servant to him.
    b. Become God, and use your God-effort, not your individual effort because you're not a person, since you're God apparently? which makes no sense.

    Woah, you just made sense for a second there. Now you're talking.
    Yes, "you" give in, and "you" fully submit and "you" turn your life completely over to him, with complete obedience.
    That sounds nothing like "I'm not doing anything with my self-effort, I'm using God-effort".
    It sounds like self-effort, basic freewill.
    Of course you need your own will. Without freewill you can't make decisions. Your will ought to be full submission to God's will, as a follower, not as God himself. It seems a big high and might sounding to say, "my will and God's will are one" doesn't it?
    If you decide to buy a car, that's your will. The same is true for what you decide to do at work, and other areas of life. Where to go to eat lunch, etc. God gave us a will to use for him. Our wills are only evil if we will them to be that way. A will of man can be in submission to God, and that is good. God is pleased to see men using self-effort to resist sin. Why wouldn't he be?
     
  3. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    My Brothers and Sister in Jesus are those who believe Jesus and trust 100% in His Atonement for the forgiveness of sin... This guy is not my bother in Jesus. He belongs to another religion called the works salvation type religion.

    You give them the truth and if they are open to the truth then they will accept it and be saved..
    You speak out against their teachings so as to prevent them leading others to destruction..
    You pray for them.
     
  4. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    Gods View is correct.. Two pwoplw cannot have opposing views about the Will of God and both be correct.. Either one of us is correct and the other false or we could both be false.. But we both cannot be right on this issue..

    I will not accept that we have different views untill the other person proves to be unmovable in their view .. then i walk away..
     
  5. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    Well, I agree to disagree when it comes to soteriology.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but your position is that one in which a man can remain living in sin, and not repent, and still be saved? Is that correct?
    Otherwise that'd be "works salvation".
    Sounds like you got your doctrines from Jesus-is-Savior.com
    I used to be a huge proponent of that stuff, saying Lordship salvation sends you to hell.
    I used to totally agree with what you are saying, and now I don't. What's interesting is that you believe the sin of heresy sends you to hell, oh, but you don't call it that, so I take that back, you go a step beyond that and say I'm just not even in the same religion. Therefore you avoid the issue that heresy a sin, would lead you to hell, and you must maintain that no sin can send you to hell.
    So, have I lost my salvation?

    Like I said earlier, you're making assumptions about me, and you're not correct. Please refrain from doing that. I might make assumptions as well, with a disclaimer though, because I don't really know what you believe in whole.

    I don't think people who think a person can continue to live in sin, and stay saved are believing Jesus, because Jesus never said we could remain living in sin, and stay saved. He said we must be born again.
    There's also no mention of merely trusting in the atonement of Jesus in the bible alone for salvation.
    There's more to it than that, even though it is important to believe in the atonement.
    We are washed, sanctified, and justified before God through his grace and mercy, in faith in the Lord Jesus.
    That's salvation.
    Must a person accept Jesus as Lord to be saved?
    I answer, yes.
    From what I can tell, your answer is no, since one need not even try to avoid sin, ergo, not even try to obey Jesus, ergo not even accept Jesus as Lord in their hearts.

    We are saved by what Jesus did, and it is through faith we are saved. I believe one requires faith to be saved, and faith that Jesus is Lord is essential. Anyone who continues to live in sin, essentially rejects Jesus as Lord in their hearts, and does not have faith. Good works are the outcome of salvation, not the cause of it from us. Sinful works are that which may send us to hell, and only God's mercy and grace can save us, not ourselves.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2017
  6. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    Why do you keep trying to put me into a box? First it's "'Lordship salvation" and then it's "Jesus-is-Savior.com" Please just deal with what i write if you want to discuss anything with me... I get my beliefs fron the Bible. I became a Christian when i read the Bible and i have been a Christian for near on 30 years..

    Repentance is acknowledging ones sins to God.. That they are sins in need of His Atonement for ones forgiveness.. So yes one must be repentant by believing Jesus, which means believing the teachings and moral guidance of Jesus.. Seeing that Jesus is God that includes all teachings...

    """"""Therefore you avoid the issue that heresy a sin, would lead you to hell, and you must maintain that no sin can send you to hell."""""""

    There you go again pasting positions upon me that i have never stated... Here is my belief.. If one commits the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that person shall never have forgiveness in this world or the next... Now why don't you stop pasting positions on me and start dealing with what i actually say????

    """"So, have I lost my salvation?""""

    Have you ever been saved ? I don't know... If you are not 100% reliant and trusting in the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ then you are not saved.. And reading your posts indicates to me that you are not saved.. Again i can only go on what you have written here about your religious beliefs..

    """"""""""Must a person accept Jesus as Lord to be saved?
    I answer, yes.
    From what I can tell, your answer is no, since one need not even try to avoid sin, ergo, not even try to obey Jesus, ergo not even accept Jesus as Lord in their hearts.""""""

    Once again posting positions upon me that i have never expressed... Talk about being under attack by a false accuser.. But that's ok it's all water off a ducks back for me, :)

    Even in this post i have acknowledged Jesus and the LORD Jesus Christ.. Meaning Jesus is God and Redeemer And i believe that we should avoid sin as best we can and also do good works as best we can .. But this should be done out of love for God and love for our neighbour the two Commandments of my LORD Jesus Christ.. Our salvation does not rest upon the foundation of our Law doing nor our good works.. The Foundation of our salvation rests upon our believing Jesus and trusting in the atonement He secured for our salvation... Works plays no part in us being saved..
     
  7. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Was Jesus "man-will" or "God will" that he relied on and used...?

    I know my will doesn't work, I ask myself a lot during the day, in any situation, Lord, what do you want in this circumstance... And then, I do it... I wouldn't say it is "my will" my will only comes into play when I'm disobeying and I know it... So, it is sometimes my will, sometimes his, right now, where I am at...

    Yes, I am still tempted, it's the enemy trying to make me choose my will and disobey again... Which I do sometimes, but reject most temptations, and those temptations I have rejected and have not gone back to, are starting to go away...

    Peace,

    God Bless!
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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  9. Noah837

    Noah837 Newbie

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    The torah or law of Moses as ordained by Yahuah Elohim (God) still stands as Yahusha (Jesus) is the walking torah or the living and breathing torah in the flesh. He came to fulfill the law and prophets, not terminate it as christianity teaches in error.
     
  10. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    That's confession. Repentance is changing one's attitude towards sin, meaning one wills to cease from it.
    I'm only going off of where your beliefs lead, it's called logic, and you're doing the something similar but a worse version that.
    Actually, it means he is the commander over our lives, the authority over us. If you go against Jesus, and live in sin, you're saying he's not the Lord with your heart, ergo a lack of saving faith.
    Salvation is by grace, meaning God's will upon us, through faith, meaning we believe in the Lord Jesus.
    Although you may say we "should" try to stop sinning, your belief seems to indicate that there is no consequence for a christian who engages in willful sin such as adultery and never repents.
    and you think this qualifies you? 30 years? The length of time one has held on to certain beliefs about the bible is no indicator of whether or not those things are true. Such hubris.
    I'm 23, and I have read the new testament a couple of times. The way I read is in a logical manner, rather than a dogmatic one. I've changed my views based off of new information, and further investigation, perhaps my views may change again, I'm just saying, neither of us are the definitive prophets on what the Bible actually is intended to say. We each operate on presuppositions, and neither of us perfectly know everything the bible means to say.

    Does a man have to love God to be saved? Because living in sin is hating God, and apparently many people who claim to believe Jesus is Lord, live in sin. "love the Lord thy God" is a commandment, and the first and greatest. Can a christian hate God and still go to heaven, or will the sin of hating God send him to hell?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2017
  11. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    Both. He is both God and man.
    We aren't God, we just act with our wills, either in submission to God, or not.
    Please remember, I'm not referring to the connotative "man's will", as in a sinful will in opposition to God, and that is figurative language.
    What I'm referring to is God-given will, as in freedom of choice and action, the will we use to buy coffee or do simple average tasks such as brushing teeth. Confusing the two is a big mistake.

    There's a difference between will, and directive. You mean you're following God's directive. In other words, "his will", but you're not Him doing what you want, you're you doing what He wants. I think the problem in our exchange here is failure to separate and distinguish between certain phrases and words that carry meanings in different contexts and this is causing you to seemingly make logical errors, with sincerity, no offense (i took two philosophy classes, and it's just a fallacy of equivocation). When using christian phrases, which may sound nice, one can get caught up in taking the phrases to a different level than intended by the original messengers.

    Let's use the word "will" as a noun defined as:
    "the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action."
    If you read what you wrote with that understanding, you'd see why I'd be confused.
    In order to even ask the Lord what to do, you'd need to use your will to do it. Therefore, at some point your own will is to ask the Lord what to do, and not all of man's will, or a person's will is bad.
    Now, I'm going to eat dinner, and I'm going to use my will to do it, my faculty by which I decide on and initiate action through.
     
  12. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    If one is acknowledging that the will of God in regard to sin is right and true then they are also believing that their sin is bad, wrong, not good, evil.. If a person thought their sins where good and ok they would never even acknowledge their actions to God as being sin.. People often reject God because they are offended when they are told by the word of God that the things they do and enjoy are sins.. People like that never acknowledge anything to God.. So repentance is wrapped up in acknowledgement.. One can wish to be a perfect man but one cannot be a perfect man in this faulty human state of being..

    """"""Actually, it means he is the commander over our lives, the authority over us. If you go against Jesus, and live in sin, you're saying he's not the Lord with your heart, ergo a lack of saving faith."""""

    No way.. LORD means God in the scriptures Jesus and God are One Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.. If you do not believe in the divinity of God then we believe in two different Jesus... Anyone who claims they can live without sinning the Bible declares that the truth is not in them..

    "1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

    """"Salvation is by grace, meaning God's will upon us, through faith, meaning we believe in the Lord Jesus. Although you may say we "should" try to stop sinning, your belief seems to indicate that there is no consequence for a christian who engages in willful sin such as adultery and never repents."""""

    Once again putting words into my mouth that i never said """Wilful sin"" when did i say in my posts that it was ok to engage in wilful sin ????? That's right i NEVER said that anywhere, But here you are putting words into my mouth again.. Words that i never said.. Of course i believe the Bible when it talks of wilful sin.. But wilful sin is different from sin.. Willful sin is a sin done with an in your face rebellious attitude towards God and those who engage in willful sin do not have the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. I believe the scriptures when they say:::

    Hebrews 10: {26} For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, {27} But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

    No matter how much we might desire to be the perfect sinless beings we shall never achieve that state of being in this life.. Therefore we are constantly in need of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ for all the sins we shall commit into the future..

    """"I'm 23, and I have read the new testament a couple of times. The way I read is in a logical manner, rather than a dogmatic one. I've changed my views based off of new information, and further investigation, perhaps my views may change again,"""""

    If you view / interpretation of scripture keeps on changing then How on earth can you believe that you are lead by the Holy Spirit into understanding what Scripture is saying????? Do you realize that by saying what i have just quoted above you have totally undermined your Authority?

    """"""Does a man have to love God to be saved? Because living in sin is hating God, and apparently many people who claim to believe Jesus is Lord, live in sin. "love the Lord thy God" is a commandment, and the first and greatest. Can a christian hate God and still go to heaven, or will the sin of hating God send him to hell?""""""

    Loving God is loving His Word.. But loving His Word does not mean we live in perfect alignment with His Word.. I can greatly admire a painting done by a gifted artist but that does not mean i can then go out and paint a work of art the equal of that great painter..Just because i cannot produce a great work of Art does not then prove that i hate the art and the great artists.. My ability to do what i admire has no bearing on my admiration for what i love.. So with God i admire and Love His Will and standards, His perfection.. Me failing to live up to those standards does not then mean i now hate Gods will...

    Romans 4:1 "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? {2} For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. {3} For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. {4} Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. {5} But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. {6} Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, {7} Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. {8} Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."
     
  13. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    Would you say that christians who support gay marriage are saved?
    I acknowledge that homosexual "marriages" are not accepted in the eyes of God, and from 1 Cor 6:9 we know that such "christians" will not be saved:
    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals

    ...and yes, there are gay christian churches out there. I know of one in my city.


    I'm not debating that issue. Jesus is God, and he is the Lord. Lord means master, Jesus is our Lord, our Master. If you deny that Jesus is our Master, you deny that he is the Lord.
    Anyone who claims they can't stop sinning is denying the power that God's grace can have on them.

    I agree. The gnostics didn't believe they acquired sin against them personally, but thought only their flesh had the sin, and their spirits were clean. I on the other hand accept the fact that we as people have sin, against us.
    This is consistent because the notion of having sin, is different from committing sin, and have does not mean commit. "Have sin" implies carrying guilt of sin. So, I do have the guilt from sin.
    See John 9:41
    NASB:
    Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
    ESV: Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

    What's with your bizarre over-reactions???? Didn't I already say that I'm just going along with what I can tell from what you're saying? Please correct me if I'm mistaken about what you mean to say. You don't have to call me a "FALSE ACCUSER" or a person who's putting words in your mouth. That's quite disrespectful, and I can't imagine that you'd actually talk face to face with people in that manner.
    Better language may be like this,
    "Near, I'm a bit surprised that you think I believe that, and I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion about what I believe, but I believe, in contrast to what you said ... sorry If I wasn't clear enough".
    Regardless, thanks for clarifying, and it is sometimes difficult to understand exactly where you're coming from. So, it seems you're saying that anyone engaging in willful doesn't have forgiveness. So, does that mean that you believe anyone who commits willful sin as a christian is damned? It seems that I am going to hell then, because I had dealt with an addiction after becoming a christian and I willfully engaged in sin against God. I believe I have been forgiven though, because the blood of Jesus is still available to anyone who stumbles or falls.

    While the blood of Jesus is always available, and we've stumbled in the past. I know of no good argument that says we can never achieve a state of sinlessness in theory.

    EXCUSE ME!!!! DID I SAY KEEP ON CHANGING, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH YOU FALSE ACCUSER!!! I SAID MY VIEWS HAVE CHANGED IN THE PAST!!!! NOT "KEEP ON CHANGING"!!!
    See that? That's me making fun of how you respond. It's so childish.
    Secondly, I don't claim I was always led by the holy spirit, only that I'm not infallible, and I'm not the ultimate authority on scripture, and neither are you. Men who claim to be the sole authority on scripture, and say they can never change their views even if good arguments are made, are quite like cultists who claim that they are the only one's who can possibly be right, for no good reasons.
    I've studied philosophy and understand epistemology, and that's why I've said what I've said. I have no reason or goal to impress anyone by referring to myself as a person who can never be wrong about his views and can never change in the face of reasoning. God has led me through a path of reasoning, not blind acceptance. That's how I've changed my views, reasoning, and learning new concepts. Don't compare yourself to a prophet, and no I'm not saying you said you are, but you're almost sounding as if you are.

    God's Word? You mean the Word of God, or the bible?
    If you love the bible, that's not loving the Word of God. That's loving the book of God. Not the same. Jesus is The Word of God. "See John 1:1"
    Although if one loves the bible, it's likely that one loves God, just saying, they aren't the same.
    To love God, we don't simple admire the bible. We keep his commandments and his commandments are not burdensome or impossible to keep, even though we may stumble.
    Now, what I'm saying is, if you don't love God, you aren't saved. I'm also saying anyone who lives in sin, does not love God and is not saved. Any disagreement there?
    I'll also say, a christian's love for God can grow cold, and disappear. That has happened for me personally in the past, and I've come back to Christ. I was not saved while I hated God with my sin.
    Only abiding in the love of God, are we saved.
    So, can a christian hate God, and still be saved in that hate?
    Can I hate my brothers or sisters, and still be saved in that hate?
    If no, then we're on the same page. If yes, then you're saying a person can sin against God and men and be saved while in those sins.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2017
  14. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    This seem to have become a counseling thread.

    bugkiller
     
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