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Featured Your not under the law, you are under grace...?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neogaia777, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    You're doing it again, assuming we're operating under the same paradigms. It really doesn't work that way because my beliefs aren't subject to your beliefs about salvation or sin. They are independent, operating on different networks. So, my own view is perfectly logical if it is viewed in the appropriate paradigm. Doing otherwise results in a pointless back and forth so called debate as to what is true. I accept the fact that we have different views.

    I don't believe one can know he will sin in the future with certainty.
    Logically speaking, I don't know when I'll die, and anyone of us could die anytime, perhaps minutes from now.
    Perhaps, God, wishing to aid his servants decides to uplift a man, and cause him to feel no temptation.
    You really don't know for certain the future when it comes to whether or not a person will indeed sin.
    Secondly, you're assuming quite a lot about me, and you're not quite accurate when it comes to that. I don't think I'm the one who is falsely accusing.
     
  2. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    I'll name an example. Watching hours of pornography doesn't make a person humble. It corrupts their minds.
    Telling people they are saved while they live in sin is the opposite of edification.
     
  3. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    I don't think it's anyone's place but the Devil's to tell me that I will fail in sin for the rest of my life.
    Just imagine him saying in a sinister voice, "Yes, you will sin, oh yes, you will sin... lust, hate, lie, be carnal, sin is the rule of your life and their is no escape for sin, not even Jesus can guide you away from sin, I'll get you, til you die."

    Look, I know I will always have sinned in the past, but I see no reason to think I need to sin in the future, even if I will sin in the future. Secondly, I don't believe I'm paid for in full, and all my sins no matter what I will do in the future are forgiven, as some protestants think, but rather, redeemed from sin and death, and brought into the light of Christ. I believe there's such a thing as going back to one's vomit, as Peter describes.
    Secondly, it seems you two, (you and Adstar), are in this together if im not mistaken. Trying to get me to see the truth. Well, I accept the fact that we're operating on different paradigms and we don't look at the bible the same way. So, I've just explained it the way I see it. That's all. No comment on your beliefs other than, "I disagree, here's what I think", for the most part. One does not reason with Catholics that way, since they operate on a different paradigm. So treat me like a Catholic, but one that doesn't pray to Mary, recognize the Pope, or the need for their church. You know, the doctrine on OSAS is actually pretty new compared to a lot of what the earlier churches have believed in... but I digress...

    I accept that I no longer have to sin, never had to sin, and that any sin I do commit is all my fault, not my flesh's, but my own foolishness, and I deserve hell for all my sins, and by God's grace, I am renewed, and am given the wisdom to come to Christ in repentance, and it is not my truth, but His Truth, that sets me free. With my God-given ability, I strive to abstain from sin, and I believe if I stumble, or fall, I can return to Christ, as he is merciful. However, should I choose to abandon the faith, I have no promise that as a faithless person I am saved.
     
  4. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Well, that is the trick isn't it, where an individual "should be" with their sin, a thing which only God knows, and no man can be an accurate judge of...

    I guess I've "settled" right now, having a few, relatively minor pet peeve sins, that I and the Lord talk about, and he has let me know is "OK" for now (for right now being the key)...

    However, Where I have settled into is a place, where I am right now, I am more concerned about my behavioral sins more than anything, sins that will harm and hurt (others)... And I feel like I'm doing OK there, for now, (at least the Lord has let me know it's only "OK" (for now anyway) When he wants me to make more progress with sin, he'll let me know and help me, he has assured me of that...

    Just watch out for the behavioral sin of thinking your better than other people or higher or more or, well, "better" than those "other" sinners, brother...

    I'm still not going to stay here though, but, the few sins I do have, keeps me from being to high minded when it comes to other people... And puts the Lord in the center and not me...

    I agree that watching hours of increasingly perverse pornography will do great harm to that individual, thank God, I don't have that problem...

    Well,

    Peace,

    God Bless!
     
  5. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    I think it's obvious, and God has revealed where man should be with sin. They should be free from it, as he has commanded us.
    Even though we may not be holy as he is, we should be there, and that's the bar.

    Has the Lord let anyone know any sins are "OK"? I don't believe that. Regardless, that's your paradigm.

    I couldn't care less about how I'm doing compared to others. I'm a loner, always have been. In fact, I've humiliated myself in front of my parents before and spoke about my sins. I am one who is truly ashamed, and if the circumstances were different, I might have committed suicide because at times, and even recently, as your friend has put it, I've failed, and I've wanted to really hurt myself.

    If I had the problem, would you judge me? Lust is a sin I've struggled against, and it's painful to read people's words sometimes, it's like they're telling me, "yes, you will go back to lusting after that women, Jesus can't save you, you'll fail repeatedly."
    My only solution, a belief in total 100% freedom from lust, and if I can do that, then the rest of the sins as well why not?
    May God help me, because I need salvation from sin, of which, the wages are death.
     
  6. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    What do you do, when you do see yourself sinning?, If you can succeed in doing away with sinning, without sinning, in your own life, then, great!, more power to you... I think that's awesome...

    I too have a goal of becoming, by Christ alone, have a goal of becoming completely free from all sin, for that is the center mark on the target, but, thus far, I have not hit it dead center on the bulls eye, and I am convinced now that it will have to be, HAVE TO BE, all Christ, and none of me, who does it for me, if I am ever, ever to achieve it, if it is in his will and plan for me to be so, in the future...

    He tells me to be patient and not try to do it in my self-effort, cause that will fail, but to look to and wait on him and ask him to "make me" sinless, and in time, have faith that he will, and we will together, (eventually), but, right now is not the time for me, and I don't know what or when the time will be, but, he'll let me know when it is, if that is in the cards for me... Cause "I" will not be able to do it, of that I'm sure, but it will have to be "all him" in me, and him and him only, in me, alone...

    God Bless Brother!
     
  7. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    I have to speak of sin in the past tense. Like I said, it's not a rule in my life, but an exception. That's just the way I have to mentally think of it. I can't refer to it as a pattern in my life, but a "past" aspect of how I used to be. So, the question is better put, "what have you done, after you've seen yourself sin?" I refuse to accept a notion that sin will always be in my life.
    My answer, is that I've lived in self-loathing, and after time, I find myself doing better, and today, I pray God will keep me in wisdom, and guidance which creates discipline that leads to long-term godliness.

    We don't have to be Christ. We just have to follow Christ, and win the battles against sin, daily.

    Self-effort? I disregard the notion as a problem, rather it's a fact. God doesn't tell me to wait, or not use self-effort. Rather, he tells me to use my ability, and try hard to overcome sin, because he has already given me that ability, and it's not special because we all have freewill. He provides the truth which sets us free, and that truth is, "you don't have to sin". Because if you believe you have to, and you believe you always will, the outcome is simple, you will. If you believe it's possible to avoid sin, you've got a shot. The message I hear is, "what are you waiting for? go and sin no more..." God has already given me, and continues to give me what I need to be free, at this point it's a matter of choice, a matter of choosing to love God daily.

    ...and that's why I have some hate, for myself, within me. I hope that I can love God daily, and that'll be my prayer.
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    What does "free from sin" mean to you? Are you free from sin...? I'd say, I almost am, but I'm a work in progress, and I still could backslide a bit as well...

    What do you think "Holy" means? Only God knows where a person "should be" in their walk with him... Should be, sinless perhaps at the end of the walk with him, but certainly not the beginning, should be improving in the middle, and near the end, be nearly sinless, and by the end, sinless, but not until then...

    You just said were not "holy" as he is, but then say we "should be" holy as he is holy, could you clarify that...?

    He doesn't like it, but he understands it, he has made concessions for my sins, and made concessions for where I am at right now in my walk right now... Not that there "OK" necessarily, but that for now, for right now, they serve a purpose until that purpose can be done away with in the future...


    I'm not judging anyone, except maybe myself, which maybe I shouldn't do... I used to have some major problems with a lot of lust as well, they're less now, but not completely gone... I just couldn't imagine what kind of hell it would be for a person who watches "hours" of pornography, especially online, internet pornography, what that would do to you, I feel very bad for people who are in that right now...

    Why would you want to hurt yourself...?

    God Bless!
     
  9. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    I'll just reiterate. That's a different paradigm. I think if you go back into history, you won't find early churches preaching that message. The Catholic Church, the Russian or Eastern, or Oriental Orthodox churches do not subscribe to what is plainly called easy-believism. What you speak of sounds like it's against Lordship salvation, where one does not have to accept Jesus as Lord to be saved.

    As for Matt 7, under my paradigm, the reason why they were cast away, it's because they kept living in sin, and thought they were saved even though they lived in sin. The wonderful works were the miracles, not the repentance from sin.
     
  10. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness Supporter

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    Spiritual discernment is a gift, one that we are encouraged to develop (otherwise, how can we possibly say that we recognise The Holy Spirit?).

    Then, as we begin to see Christ come alive in everybody and we learn how this functions, then we know that a person is only in good spirits when they are manifesting love (1 John 4:16); whereas if we trigger them to behave sinfully or to resent us, then we do not see The Holy Spirit manifested in them - we see a carnal, or demonic spirit (Romans 6:16).

    In this way, when we live by law, then we believe in our righteousness for obedience to the law, which is to condescend the ones who do not observe as strictly as us. They might even perceive that judgement when it is not in our own heart, because that is our belief - and the devil gets a foothold because they are hating us (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

    Thus, Romans 7:10.

    Yet, if we live by obedience and constant repentance, to do unto others as we would have done unto us, then we give The Holy Spirit dominion (even if we must persist until the evil comes out of them - Mark 9:29, Isaiah 58:6-8, Ecclesiastes 1:18), and then we see Christ coming alive all around us.

    Not only this, but God has a lot to achieve by us, to fulfil Messiah's duties in Jesus' name (Revelation 17:14).. so He pushes us to keep growing in faith (John 15:2). If we are not producing the fruit He requires of us, then will we see His pleasure? No, because then rather we must confess and repent to obedience for Him (Hebrews 10:38-39).

    Therefore, obedience leads to righteousness, and then Revelation 2:26-29 (Revelation 22:16).
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    And don't forget about loving other people, and yourself as well, and these should be nearly equal if your perfect in love... That's one of my goals, to be perfect in love...

    Self hatred is a sin, self-loathing, anything having to do with "self" really... I use to do it, but, not now...

    It's not about "trying hard" brother, it's about "letting go" and letting God in your life and relaxing a bit... I tried it the way your trying it, trust me, it will utterly fail you...

    There's a favorite Star Trek episode of mine, where the ship is getting hit harder and harder by graviton wavefronts the more power they applied to ships shields... and they nearly did not realize that it was the more power (or energy or self-effort) they were applying to the shields that was causing the waves (sinful temptations strength or intensity) to hit the ship harder and harder... This is how it is with our efforts, especially our self-efforts or exerting our will against sin...

    It is a bit about how you see or think of it, if you can think you can be sinless then you might be able to, but, I guarantee you, not on your own, alone...

    Until my sin no longer has a Godly reason or purpose in my life, then it will probably always still be there, but, perhaps not, if it no longer has or serves a Godly purpose for me...

    Patience is a virtue, brother... "Waiting", especially on God, has it purpose...

    God Bless!
     
  12. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    Free from sin. It doesn't mean free forever as though you'll never sin again, but simply a state of being righteous, and cleansed from past sin, with goodness and purity in one's heart, as opposed to wickedness in ones heart.
    It's quite possible to go back to sin, and the bible is clear on the fact that a righteous man can become unrighteous.
    If you read Ezekiel 33, that's the kind of notion I'm talking about. There's a possibility for one to become wicked after being righteous (clean), and vice versa. No reason for me to think being free in this life from sin, means you can't be once again entangled. After all 2 Peter, which I quoted actually illustrates that.

    No one should sin. Wouldn't you agree?
    I hear about people referring to to sin of comparing yourselves with others. The reason why that doesn't even cross my mind is because I don't think of sin that way. We're not in a competition comparing each other. If a person should be in any sin, why would God command us not to sin? That's just my paradigm, and I honestly don't see why he would make it so that we should, or ought to sin. It's not like he goes "ah, Near, you should be here at this level, you quit lusting after multiple women, and only lust after this one internet gal on youtube who is attractive to you, but isn't 18+rated." It would be silly, and crazy to think that God would want anyone at a lesser sin level rather than him wanting all of us today. Didn't God say he's a jealous god? I doubt God wanted the Israelites to worship less false gods, rather than no false gods. The essence of "should" is something to think about.

    What if, it's not okay at all to sin, and God simply has mercy on you, as he does for me, and he's willing to put up with us and keep us safe while we struggle and strive to become better men? He understands that we have failed, and may fail more, but he loves us and wants us to love him and be totally dedicated to him. We have no good reasons not to give all of ourselves to him.

    I was exposed to that garbage as a young teen. I praise God that he's guided me away from that, but I hate myself when I think about how I've failed him, even though I've had all the tools he's given me, it's because of a lack of love for God. That's why I've found myself in self-loathing, but I'll put that behind me I'll press forward and follow God, he guides me.
     
  13. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    Self-loathing is different from hatred for others. It's more about depression, anxiety, hopelessness, and it's a result of sin.

    I tried letting go, and ended up getting distracted so much that I found myself drifting away from God, and into worldly pursuits, and back into sin. I literally let myself go ahead and play videogames. Skip reading the bible and go home, and watch Youtube videos. If I let go, and let myself get comfortable in the world, I'll surely sin more.
    If anything the bible says to be sober and diligent, and not a mention of letting go and relaxing. Taking it easy is that which allows a person to get caught in the thorns of the world, and the cares of this life.
    I like Star Trek as well. However, I think sometimes you just gotta give it your all, and never give up, and just ram an entire starship into the enemy to win. I really must disagree with you when you speak of one's effort causing failure. There just isn't anything in the bible that suggests that self-effort to deny oneself, as Jesus commanded, is a bad thing. We are commanded to use self-effort, and that makes sense because who are we? We are ourselves. People seem to make a big deal out of that, but it's just a plain boring fact that is not grand whatsoever.

    Sin isn't a cause of godliness or good purpose for oneself. I recognize my sin as useless garbage, not useful at all, and an utter failure.

    Meta: Remember, one paradigm, and another paradigm.
     
  14. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    No one should sin, but, we do... And I agree, that's a problem, but, I see no escape from it, unless it's 100% Christ's work in a person destined for that, 100% completely... And, I "don't know" if that's "in the cards" for me or not...

    What advice would you give others in wanting to be free of sin, on here? Tactics? Strategies? Reminders or things to keep in mind in doing so...?

    Peace,

    God Bless!
     
  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    No... Those are all sins that come from "pride" in my experience anyways...


    Well, after years spent in self-effort, I found this "letting go and letting God" (rule, control) in my life and my being to be the only way for me... But, whatever "works" for you I guess (still think it will fail you though)...

    I "want to", I "desire to" keep myself involved and deeply engrossed in the things of God daily, it is my greatest pleasure in life to be doing so... And, it's relaxing (now) and of great comfort to me, no one is "making me" do it, I "want to" be doing it all the time...



    K, well then, keep it up until your sweating blood and tell me how that's working for you, in the end...


    Sin, right now, is keeping me "in check" but, I do not want it to be that forever, but, until that changes, or when that changes, may be when God removes it completely from my life (hopefully) and may be, why it or he hasn't done so (yet)...

    Peace,

    God Bless!
     
  16. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    I would say, no one should sin, and God thinks so too. However, we've seen ourselves in the past, failing to keep ourselves from sin totally, whether it's stumbling or falling far from God. As for the escape, it's always there, and it's simply a matter of choice on our parts. God is 100% willing to have us abide in complete holiness, but the problem is sometimes, we aren't willing.
    The problem is us, as choice makers, endowed with freewill.
    If God gives us the gospel, and we believe it, and he wants us to live holy and never sin, it's up to us to do what he asks of us. I don't think the situation calls for waiting for God to stop us from sinning some day in the future. It's all about the present, and us making the decisions that God wants us to make with our own effort, because he said so, not because we're "all that and totally awesome", but because we're mere humans endowed with free-will.

    This verse inspires me (among many):
    I believe it applies to every temptation that could lead to sin. Therefore all sin can be avoided if we should choose the way of escape which God provides.

    As for tactics. Good habit development. Prayer, moderation in things of the world, reading the bible, keeping one's mind on the bible and God's commandments, and similar things. I tried playing videogames for hours, ie letting go, but that just got me lazy and primed up for sins of the flesh, an easy target for temptations.
     
  17. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    It does for me (now)... I give up on "self"-effort and "self" will, it's all about and his will for me now... If he doesn't do it in my life, it's just not going to happen...

    Peace,

    God Bless!
     
  18. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    I wouldn't say depression, anxiety, and the like are sins. They're human conditions, and it's right to be depressed sometimes because being remorseful about sin is good.

    How would you let God control your life?
    I mean, that sounds nice, but what do you mean? Surely you mean you just stopped doing what you wanted to do, whatever sins you've had, and started reading the bible, and doing good works, ie letting God take control.
    I find it hard to understand what you would be disagreeing with me on if that's the case.
    I'm letting go of what I wanted to do, which included playing videogames (additively), lusting after women, etc. and I've started letting God take control, by submitting to his will, not my old sinful one.
    No one is "making you do it"? You're doing it?
    Isn't that the opposite of what you mean though? Isn't that what self-will is?
    Is God making you do it, or are you doing it, and he's not making you?

    That's what it may take, and we're commanded to go to extreme measures to avoid sin in the bible. Jesus never told us to give in to temptation, and take it easy. We're told to put on the whole armor of God for a reason.
    I disagree, and I don't see any biblical reason to think sin is good for keeping anyone in check. If one is aiming to live righteously, he won't need to worry about being prideful, because anyone walking with God seeking to be pure will not be prideful, but humble. Why hasn't he done it yet? The answer is that it's not always God that makes the decision when it comes to how we behave. Sin is a choice, and those who continue in sin, are choosing to.
     
  19. Near

    Near In Christ we rise

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    I went into more depth about this in my previous reply, but I'll reiterate. This notion of self-effort. It's painted out to be a bad thing, as if it's akin to selfishness, and that's tied into greed, and lust. Rather, the word similarity in "selfish" should not be carried over and self-effort should not be thought of as evil at all. Self-effort is merely one's own effort in doing something. Whether it's following God, or brushing one's teeth, because we aren't God. No one is using God's effort as their own, otherwise should we say that a man is using God's effort alone? No, we use our own effort, as men, to follow God, and that's a good thing.
    We are not God. I won't say I'm using God's effort as the effort of myself. Otherwise I'd be blaspheming. Only God can use God's effort, while we must use individual human effort.

    Meta:
    Well, we do have different paradigms. I guess we'll agree to disagree.
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    "Why" are you depressed...? (Is it not because "YOU THOUGHT" things should be or not be this or that...?) Anxious...? (Worried, stressed out, paranoid, afraid, ect) (all sins)...

    Why, or "what" are you remorseful about...? (sin, that you riddling yourself with guilt about, cause YOU THOUGHT that it should have been, this or that, or went this or that way, and it didn't, but it went God's way instead)... Are you not experiencing these things because it shattered some preconceived notion or idea, that YOU had about YOURSELF for YOU, in YOUR OWN LIFE, or not...?

    Is it not because of some form of pride (in the end) that caused or is causing it (in the end)...? Or not...?

    Hard to describe... It was and is a working inside of me, on his part, changing my desires to match up with his and his will, my desires now are nearly the same as his for my life, now...

    I'm not trying to disagree with you, just have a discussion is all, sorry if it seems that way...?

    He makes "suggestions" to me all the time, I am finding that when I agree, (cause really what he wants for my life, is exactly what I want for my life), (it's just taking me time to realize it and catch up to him on it, but, I'm getting there) I'm finding that, when I agree, I am very happy with it, so his and my wills are becoming "one" in my life...

    Well, "I've" tried it (and that was part of the problem, it was "me" and "I" trying and trying to "will" it (to be or not be) that was part of the problem, doing it without him)... Anyways, and it does not "work" for me at all, in fact, it just made/makes everything much, much worse... But, it may not be so for you, I do not claim to know...

    My sin is progressively becoming less and less a problem, but, until I give in and submit fully to him and turn my life completely over to him, complete obedience to all his suggestions, our wills becoming one... I think that is the day I will be truly "free" of it for good...

    I'm learning, I'm a work in progress...

    God Bless!
     
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