If one reads Romans 8, I think they will find the answer to this paradox.One's performance in sin avoidance might have some bearing, BUT, if it does, no one, too often not even the person themselves can judge where that person should be with it, at any given point in their life, but, only God alone knows and can...
Surely a person cannot intentionally and deliberately sin a lot, and still believe with absolute surety that they are saved...
And sin is what destroy's us, even if we are saved for the next life, in this life, it destroy's our societies and our own personal lives, and brings sorrow and depression and misery and anguish and torment... Why wouldn't you want to do away with it (sin) and not do it (sin)...?
I'm looking for something that will give us real, true power, and will truly empower us to do away with sin...?
What will do it/that...?
God Bless!
Why are you referencing Hebrews and quoting Romans?Jesus did not abolish the law. We are not free from punishment/discipline in this age for breaking the law. Through Jesus' death the sins of the saved will be atoned for on judgement day such that we will not receive eternal punishment for them. The damned, lacking atonement will be judged by the law, still in force.
Hebrews 9:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
How does being under grace and not law give you the ability to overcome sin?Your not under the law, you are under grace...?
And the gospel of grace is the truth, and the love is the truth and will "set you free"...
Set you free from what? Sin and death, or sin causing death, or sin...
How does being under grace and not under law, keep you from or give you the ability to do away with sin...?
The "gratefulness" does and will... The degree to which you feel that gratefulness will determine how much and to what degree you do away with and get set free from sin, and all it causes or brings in your life...
Your very deep and the depth of the degree that you are so very, very grateful to God/Christ for all he did, and the depths to which you understand all that he did, will produce the great thankfulness and gratefulness which kind of love it produces for him, will create a strong desire in you not to sin anymore...
Then you don't want to sin, being so, so, very, deeply thankfully and gratefully appreciative of all he did to pay for your sin, to absolve you, to give you a grace period that will last till the day you die...
The depth of the appreciation for all God/Christ did for you, the depths to which you understand that, will be the power or degree to which you won't want to, and will not eventually sin anymore, and be free from all that sin does and causes, in your life...
People who use grace as an excuse to sin, are not "getting it" their not properly valuing and are greatly disrespecting all that God/Christ did for them personally... Their spitting on the great gift that Christ gives, which is and was "himself" in our place...
The degree to which you understand this, and the deep gratefulness that this should produce, along with the great love and appreciation for him and yourself that this should produce, should measure how well you are able (this will determine the level of your ability) to conquer and do away with sin...
Comments...?
God Bless!
Your not under the law, you are under grace...?
And the gospel of grace is the truth, and the love is the truth and will "set you free"...
Set you free from what? Sin and death, or sin causing death, or sin...
How does being under grace and not under law, keep you from or give you the ability to do away with sin...?
Your not under the law, you are under grace...?
And the gospel of grace is the truth, and the love is the truth and will "set you free"...
Set you free from what? Sin and death, or sin causing death, or sin...
How does being under grace and not under law, keep you from or give you the ability to do away with sin...?
The "gratefulness" does and will... The degree to which you feel that gratefulness will determine how much and to what degree you do away with and get set free from sin, and all it causes or brings in your life...
Your very deep and the depth of the degree that you are so very, very grateful to God/Christ for all he did, and the depths to which you understand all that he did, will produce the great thankfulness and gratefulness which kind of love it produces for him, will create a strong desire in you not to sin anymore...
Then you don't want to sin, being so, so, very, deeply thankfully and gratefully appreciative of all he did to pay for your sin, to absolve you, to give you a grace period that will last till the day you die...
The depth of the appreciation for all God/Christ did for you, the depths to which you understand that, will be the power or degree to which you won't want to, and will not eventually sin anymore, and be free from all that sin does and causes, in your life...
People who use grace as an excuse to sin, are not "getting it" their not properly valuing and are greatly disrespecting all that God/Christ did for them personally... Their spitting on the great gift that Christ gives, which is and was "himself" in our place...
The degree to which you understand this, and the deep gratefulness that this should produce, along with the great love and appreciation for him and yourself that this should produce, should measure how well you are able (this will determine the level of your ability) to conquer and do away with sin...
Comments...?
God Bless!
Your not under the law, you are under grace...?
And the gospel of grace is the truth, and the love is the truth and will "set you free"...
Set you free from what? Sin and death, or sin causing death, or sin...
How does being under grace and not under law, keep you from or give you the ability to do away with sin...?
The "gratefulness" does and will... The degree to which you feel that gratefulness will determine how much and to what degree you do away with and get set free from sin, and all it causes or brings in your life...
Your very deep and the depth of the degree that you are so very, very grateful to God/Christ for all he did, and the depths to which you understand all that he did, will produce the great thankfulness and gratefulness which kind of love it produces for him, will create a strong desire in you not to sin anymore...
Then you don't want to sin, being so, so, very, deeply thankfully and gratefully appreciative of all he did to pay for your sin, to absolve you, to give you a grace period that will last till the day you die...
The depth of the appreciation for all God/Christ did for you, the depths to which you understand that, will be the power or degree to which you won't want to, and will not eventually sin anymore, and be free from all that sin does and causes, in your life...
People who use grace as an excuse to sin, are not "getting it" their not properly valuing and are greatly disrespecting all that God/Christ did for them personally... Their spitting on the great gift that Christ gives, which is and was "himself" in our place...
The degree to which you understand this, and the deep gratefulness that this should produce, along with the great love and appreciation for him and yourself that this should produce, should measure how well you are able (this will determine the level of your ability) to conquer and do away with sin...
Comments...?
God Bless!
I don't speak for all people. What I've said doesn't apply to an ambiguous "we".If Jesus cleansed us from all sins in this life then we would be living sinless lives... The Atonement of Jesus covers all our sins we sin in this life.. God will cleanse us from all sins upon the day of the resurrection when we will be given perfect eternal sinless bodies..
So Jesus Blood is cleansing us continually through our lives. we are constantly being washed because we are constantly getting dirty and are in need of continual cleansing.
I don't speak for all people. What I've said doesn't apply to an ambiguous "we".If Jesus cleansed us from all sins in this life then we would be living sinless lives... The Atonement of Jesus covers all our sins we sin in this life.. God will cleanse us from all sins upon the day of the resurrection when we will be given perfect eternal sinless bodies..
So Jesus Blood is cleansing us continually through our lives. we are constantly being washed because we are constantly getting dirty and are in need of continual cleansing.
I don't speak for all people. What I've said doesn't apply to an ambiguous "we".
So, for those who walk in the light, i.e. not living in sin, he cleanses those people, and they are walking without sin for the time in their lives in which they are walking in the light.
Jesus cleanses us from sin, once we have stepped out of the darkness and into the light.
The blood of Jesus does not cleanse sins of people who currently practice lawlessness. If I go to a bar and get drunk, I'm not cleansed from that sin, while I'm drunk. Only after repentance is one cleansed.
When it comes to the body, you must mean bodies we can't be tempted in, rather than sinless bodies. Since the body itself, the organs, and bones, actually do not contain any sins. It is our own souls that bear sin. As for temptations from our bodies, no temptation is too strong to overcome, wouldn't you agree?
1 John 1:
6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
So, being cleansed is conditional upon walking in the light.
I don't think the christian life is one that is constantly getting dirty, or perhaps in other words, constantly living in sin. You're either clean, or unclean, not both at the same time.
First off, let's recognize that we are operating on two different paradigms, and we shouldn't act as if we are operating on one.If Jesus cleansed you from sin then you would not sin ever again.. You went to a bar and got drunk then you would not be cleansed from sin because you sinned and thus that would show you are not a true Christian by your works salvation preaching.. Either Jesus cleanses us from sin or He does not.. You cannot say Jesus has cleansed you from sin and then ever sin again.. You have just broken your own preaching and demonstrated it to be false..
So yeah your either clean or unclean .. you cannot be both at the same time and the next time you sin you can declare yourself unsaved according to your own preaching.. And you can be assured you will sin in the future without any doubt...
When you do, your covered... Is that edifying...?First off, let's recognize that we are operating on two different paradigms, and we shouldn't act as if we are operating on one.
"You have just broken your own preaching and demonstrated it to be false," is what you claim, but remember we're not operating on the same set of doctrines, so you wouldn't really know exactly what my beliefs are on the subject, so I wouldn't be demonstrating my beliefs are false, since I'm not operating according to your rule.
Allow me to explain.
If Jesus cleansed me from sin, I would recognize that I'd be cleansed as long as I remain walking in the light. I recognize that fact that one can depart from the faith, as well as simply return to sin. So, I don't think the statement, "If Jesus cleansed you from sin then you would not sin ever again" is true, and I don't see why I would think that. What about being cleansed negates the possibility of becoming dirty again? We still have freewill.
As for being assured that I will sin again in the future, please don't say that. That's basically an insult, like you're actually attacking me personally telling me that I'm destined to be a moral failure who will fornicate, get drunk, steal, and turn into a complete dirt-bag. Some godly edification, and encouragement would be nice, rather than a defeatist mentality which does not uplift.
First off, let's recognize that we are operating on two different paradigms, and we shouldn't act as if we are operating on one.
"You have just broken your own preaching and demonstrated it to be false," is what you claim, but remember we're not operating on the same set of doctrines, so you wouldn't really know exactly what my beliefs are on the subject, so I wouldn't be demonstrating my beliefs are false, since I'm not operating according to your rule.
Allow me to explain.
If Jesus cleansed me from sin, I would recognize that I'd be cleansed as long as I remain walking in the light. I recognize that fact that one can depart from the faith, as well as simply return to sin. So, I don't think the statement, "If Jesus cleansed you from sin then you would not sin ever again" is true, and I don't see why I would think that. What about being cleansed negates the possibility of becoming dirty again? We still have freewill.
As for being assured that I will sin again in the future, please don't say that. That's basically an insult, like you're actually attacking me personally telling me that I'm destined to be a moral failure who will fornicate, get drunk, steal, and turn into a complete dirt-bag. Some godly edification, and encouragement would be nice, rather than a defeatist mentality which does not uplift.
Hey, he's just in that stage where he's trying to do away with his sin due to his love for the Lord (maybe in his own strength and effort right now) and/because he really, really does not want to go back into sin again (although he eventually will, and may be already) but, he's just at a stage where he really does not want to sin and is trying to find a way not to...I can only go on what you preach.. If you say Jesus cleanses you of sin then you are claiming Jesus cleanses you of sin.. Now i believe Jesus is LORD and therefore perfect and if He cleansed you of sin then you would be sinless and you would never ever sin again if you where clean and no longer living in sin... See people read what you preach and take your words as read.. So they know that you do sin and will sin again and thus they know that your preaching is false and Not Christian at all.. Unless that is you actually believe your own preaching and you actually believe you are sinless now and have never sinned since the day you where saved??? Of course if you believe that then i would call you delusional and in denial of your continuing sin..
I will tell you that you will sin in the future because i know you are just a mortal man and thus faulty and thus you will sin again.. You can accept that truth or deny it as much as you like.. You can be offended if you like too.. But you trying to undermine the Faith and hope of others by preaching that people are not saved if they sin really is a toxic thing to say to other Children of God.. You are an accuser and a false messenger of God preaching another Gospel and you shall be judged by the Gospel you preach and you will be found guilty of the sins you do because you have not trusted in the Atonement of Jesus alone but upon your sin avoidance performance... Well you will need to have a perfect record in your sin avoidance record.. One sin .. One sin only and you are doomed..
Should he just "give up" on not sinning anymore or what?, cause many people we force this truth upon feel very defeated afterward when it comes to the sin problem, so, what should we tell him/them...?Hey, he's just in that stage where he's trying to do away with his sin due to his love for the Lord (maybe in his own strength and effort right now) and/because he really, really does not want to go back into sin again (although he eventually will, and may be already) but, he's just at a stage where he really does not want to sin and is trying to find a way not to...
And, we can't or shouldn't tell him that it's going to fail, if, "If" we don't find a way to help him cope with the fact that it fails, so, when he fails, (or perhaps already has or is right now), we should find a way to help him cope with the alternative, which is the truth that he is an always will be a "sinner" but a forgiven, bought and paid for in full, sinner..
I can understand how him trying to accept that can make him feel very defeated and beat down, where he's at right now... But, how can he cope with the truth, this truth we are trying to tell him...?
Any Ideas...?
God Bless!
I know, and agree... but, how do we "help" them, they're our brothers and sisters after all... After all, I was like them once before...If he is trying to stop himself sinning under his own effort then He is lying in saying that Jesus is doing the work.. So again his preaching is false..
We need to first reveal the problem both to smash thius false doctrine he is under and to save others who may be being mislead by his false teaching into the same defeat he is headed for... Salvation is by Believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement Jesus secured for our forgiveness 100% All glory and honour and boasting is for Jesus not for us and our filthy rags attempts at rightiousness...
I am quite sure this guy has had the true Gospel preached to him before.. But He has rejected it because pride makes a man want to make the grade and achieve self justification.. The proud cannot take a gift from God, they must seek to pay for it with their own efforts at righteousness, thus they strive to become sinless and do good works to justify / earn their own way into eternity with God.. That's what human based religion all over the world is about... It is about people working to make themselves good enough to make it into eternity by their own merit... It's about making the pass mark.. which massages their pride in being better then the ones that failed to be as good as they are..
These same people will stand before Jesus on the day of Judgement and will boast about all their wonderful Works trying to justify themselves before Jesus... They will fail because they have not relied on the righteousness of Jesus 100%
Matthew 7: KJV
21 "¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. {22} Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?,,,,, {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Yeah many Works salvation believers are in for a shocking surprise when they stand before the LORD..
I can hear them saying "what do we do"...? We don't know any other way...?I know, and agree... but, how do we "help" them, they're our brothers and sisters after all... After all, I was like them once before...
God Bless!
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