Your eyes can deceive you; don't trust them.

[CCWoody]

To illustrate you will need to refer to the Genesis 1 account. Assume for the sake of the argument that an evening and morning consist of a single 24 hour period of time.

Now, let's say that I bring a fully grown Adam to you on day 8 and ask you how old he is. What would your answer be?

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[eri]

Your point appears to be that since the Bible doesn't always make sense, the rest of the world doesn't have to either. Is that your point? If not, please share.

 

[Battie]

He'd be two days old.

And if you want to believe that the earth was created to look old too, fine. And maybe it is that way, but I don't think it is.

I have no problem with people who want to believe in a young earth based on faith alone. I just have a problem when people claim that there is evidence of a young earth or that there is something wrong with Christians who don't take Genesis literally.

 

[I_Love_Cheese]

Your point appears to be that since the Bible doesn't always make sense, the rest of the world doesn't have to either. Is that your point? If not, please share.

Alternatively, that we have made a bad assumption since it does not fit with other known data.

 

[Dal M.]

Hi, CCW. What you're using here is the Omphalos argument - the argument that God gave the universe a false history. Omphalos was first proposed about 150 years ago, and it never received much attention because it's completely worthless.

Suppose I claim that God created the universe last Thursday and implanted false memories in everyone so we'd believe we'd been around longer than that. You couldn't argue with me, could you? And yet, despite the fact that the stance is unassailable, the notion is so ludicrous that it can be safely disregarded.

Plus the Omphalos argument makes God a trickster. Maybe you could say that there's a good reason why Adam was created as an adult, but you'd have a much more difficult time explaining why the universe contains the remnants of supernovas where there were never stars, and why the ground is full of fossils that were never the bones of living animals.

 

[jwu]

Your eyes can deceive you; don't trust them.

What do you read the Bible with?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Now, let's say that I bring a fully grown Adam to you on day 8 and ask you how old he is. What would your answer be?

Your God can deceive you; don't trust Him.

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

Would the 2 day old Adam come complete with scars from false injuries from his false past? The universe we see today does not simply suggest age but also a history.

 

[michabo]

I'm with Nathan Poe. All you've shown is that a magical being like God can create things which are really two days old but which appeal thousands or billions of years old.

I don't see how this supports your case that our eyes deceive us. (Strangely, I'm inclined to agree with that statement, though I'll hold off, waiting to see where you're going with this.)

 

[Mocca]

Hmm... I thought this was satire.

 

[Elduran]

Hmm... I thought this was satire.

I thought it was Star Wars...

 

[CCWoody]

Hi, CCW. What you're using here is the Omphalos argument - the argument that God gave the universe a false history. Omphalos was first proposed about 150 years ago, and it never received much attention because it's completely worthless.

Suppose I claim that God created the universe last Thursday and implanted false memories in everyone so we'd believe we'd been around longer than that. You couldn't argue with me, could you? And yet, despite the fact that the stance is unassailable, the notion is so ludicrous that it can be safely disregarded.

Plus the Omphalos argument makes God a trickster. Maybe you could say that there's a good reason why Adam was created as an adult, but you'd have a much more difficult time explaining why the universe contains the remnants of supernovas where there were never stars, and why the ground is full of fossils that were never the bones of living animals.

What, you mean that the idea that Creation occured over 6 days and 6 nights was first proposed only 150 years ago. Surely you jest.

But, seriously, whether or not Adam had a belly button might be an interesting argument to review and I'm not opposed to going through it for the sake of arguments (whether or not I think it a good argument or not). After all, I never mind which direction my threads go. There is a certain fun and excitement just watching a thread evolve as if it has a life of its own. Besides, there really are a thousand and one variations of the theme carried out all the time.

The point is, and it is not so much about your eyes deceiving you, but that we are often blinded by our own particular biases one way or the other. I believe it was my new Atheist brother michabo that stated on the thread where this topic originated "your desires deceive you." As a Calvinist, I certainly have no problem with that one. (I'm hoping we are not just talking past each other with one liners from the mind of George Lucas.)

[bible]Jeremiah 17:9[/bible]

The illustration with Adam was not so much to drag up any notion that God has purposefully deceived people, but that I plainly told you the answer to the question. Any attempt at analysis, which it may arrive at the correct answer, might fail due to self-deception by one's individual bias.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[michabo]

The illustration with Adam was not so much to drag up any notion that God has purposefully deceived people, but that I plainly told you the answer to the question. Any attempt at analysis, which it may arrive at the correct answer, might fail due to self-deception by one's individual bias.

So, in summary, once you allow for the possibility of an unpredictable and deceptive entity capable of doing anything, you can not trust anything. Is that about right?

 

[CCWoody]

So, in summary, once you allow for the possibility of an unpredictable and deceptive entity capable of doing anything, you can not trust anything. Is that about right?

Not at all. For the sake of the argument, it is presumed that Genesis 1 is correct and interpreted as literally 6 days. I TOLD YOU THE TRUTH. The intent was not to deceive, but to inform.

I said "your eyes can deceive you."
You said "your desires can deceive you."

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[michabo]

Not at all. For the sake of the argument, it is presumed that Genesis 1 is correct and interpreted as literally 6 days. I TOLD YOU THE TRUTH. The intent was not to deceive, but to inform.

I said "your eyes can deceive you."
You said "your desires can deceive you."

But God has constructed everything to appear older, so anyone present at the time would incorrectly decide it was older. Right?

 

[meebs]

But what would be the point? i mean why? WHY?

 

[CCWoody]

But God has constructed everything to appear older, so anyone present at the time would incorrectly decide it was older. Right?

Ok, under today's best scientific explaination the age of the cosmos is not what it appears to be. Ascribing motive to that is another matter.

As to the anyone present making the wrong conclusion, I suppose that depends upon whether or not you will trust me that I have told you the truth. Again, this is merely in charity for the sake of the argument. I am not making dogmatic statements about what we should agree IS the reality. Merely continuing to examine my argument presented in the OP.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[CCWoody]

But what would be the point? i mean why? WHY?

Please elaborate so that I can respond correctly. Thanks,

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[michabo]

CCWoody,

Right. So if we have some magical entity (God) that can do anything, then we can trust nothing.



Of course, that also means that you can't trust the bible or anything else that you might see, touch, feel, or believe. It means that Last Thursdayism is just as likely as any other ideas.


So, now that we agree. What do we do about it?

 

[I_Love_Cheese]

Not at all. For the sake of the argument, it is presumed that Genesis 1 is correct and interpreted as literally 6 days. I TOLD YOU THE TRUTH. The intent was not to deceive, but to inform.

I said "your eyes can deceive you."
You said "your desires can deceive you."

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

No you didn't tell us the TRUTH, you gave us a hypothetical, and it would appear that you are as likely deceived as we if you consider your scenario to be the TRUTH.