Young Israeli man facing prison

TheDirector

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I already outlined what would amount to the Lutheran/scriptural position,

You've done no such thing. You've made claims based on nothing but your own random interpretations. That's not the same thing.

but you are so angry at everyone

I'm not angry at everyone. I'm annoyed with representatives of the ideology of cowards and moochers who try to take the Gospel hostage. That's not the same thing.

So, just to educate you on your own religion: here's your holy and most blessed link.

bahaha.jpg


THAT is what supposedly goes for "the Lutheran view"? One single article by some random person on the webpage of a single random church from the US?
Come on...most other trolls can do better than that! That's just laughable! :D

Now, trim the above with a more pacifist approach (eg. do not make war at all unless it is to defend the innocent or defend a godly government or society)

Arbitrary and pulled out of the thing you sit on. If war is wrong per definition (which I have not granted, because to say so would be against the Scriptures), then there are no exceptions.

as the Lutheran position is a little tainted with Reformation political bias (the need for war was part and parcel of the Reformation), and there you have it.

What do I have? Certainly not something worth more than the couple of seconds of my time that a hearty laugh will take.
 
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mandelduke

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On what grounds do they have a reasonable claim on that territory.



That is simply false. Arafat has been trying to reach a negotiated settlement with Israel since 1976. By 1988 he had publicly disavowed the intention to destroy the state of Israel before the United Nations back in 1988. But then Mossad funded Hamas to weaken the PLO. It is Hamas that wishes to get rid of the state of Israel entirely and sabotaged the Oslo Accords.

On what grounds do you red necks have a reasonable claim on Choctaw land.
 
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smaneck

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On what grounds do you red necks have a reasonable claim on Choctaw land.

Not a redneck. I'm a "damn Yankee" from California.

Yes, we stole land from the Native Americans. I'll be the first to admit this. Now how many Israelis will admit they wrongly disinherited the Palestinian people? As I indicated before, not all injustices can be undone. And yes that applies to Israel as much to the US. Healing begins when we admit an injustice was done and figure out what we *can* do. The Chocktaw who remained in Mississippi are doing okay running casinos. In fact they are one of the biggest employers in the state. I see the chief of the Chocktaw nation regularly advertising the Pearl River Casino with her heavy southern drawl saying, "Las Vegas with Sweet Tea."
 
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smaneck

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Oh, but that's like totally different and stuff because they're not evil Jews who're agents of the Illuminati! ....:doh:

Except I never, ever argued along those lines. Not everyone who doesn't support Zionism is an antisemite.

Of course, Luther was. ;-}
 
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TheDirector

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Except I never, ever argued along those lines. Not everyone who doesn't support Zionism is an antisemite.

The old "I'm not against Jews, I just don't think they should have their own land, but be content to exist on our mercy"-attempt?
Not buying that either!

No, criticism of Israel is not in and of itself anti-semitic. Israel is not perfect, no state is. But the constant demonization and delegitimization of a country cannot be said to be neutral towards the people of that country.
If someone says: "I hate Sweden, and Sweden should just give its enemies whatever they want without regards for the safety of the Swedes....but I have nothing against Swedes", I'd say they were full of it and were hiding their hatred of Swedes behind a more generally acceptable veil of "against Swedism!".

Of course, Luther was. ;-}

Yes he was in the later years of his life. He was also German. What of it?
 
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smaneck

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The old "I'm not against Jews, I just don't think they should have their own land, but be content to exist on our mercy"-attempt?
Not buying that either!

No, I just don't think they should have taken someone else's land, unless it was Germany of course. That country they had every right to. That does not mean I think Israel should be pushed into the sea. I believe in a negotiated settlement. And I think they had one with the Oslo Accords, but it the Israelis are at least as responsible for sabotaging those as the Palestinians. And I think this was very deliberate on Netanyahu's part.

Yes he was in the later years of his life. He was also German. What of it?

Luther wasn't getting senile. His attitude towards the Jews was entirely consistent with the rest of his theology.
 
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Zeek

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Originally Posted by Zeek
They are not occupying any sovereign state, they have a necessary presence in Judea and Samaria which is disputed territory to which Israel has a reasonable claim.
On what grounds do they have a reasonable claim on that territory.

Legally and historically Israel has a far stronger claim on Judea and Samaria than the Palestinian Arabs, but also recognises that some Palestinian Arabs have reasonable claims to some parts.

Legally it is based on the Balfour Declaration and accompanying directives that confirmed and conferred the area into Israeli ownership, and Britain under her mandate of the area was legally supposed to facilitate this.

Historically the land had a continual Jewish presence in it for over 3,000 years, and no other nation ever made and claims of sovereignity...

Religiously...it features throughout the Bible, and there are solemn promises given by G-d to the Jewish people that it is their land....

No one was that bothered with Israel until they saw what the Jews could actually do with the land....



Originally Posted by Zeek Not so....what makes a negotiated solution virtually impossible is that ultimately the Palestinian Arabs will never be happy until the whole of Israel is wiped clean of Jews....that is their declared long term goal.


That is simply false. Arafat has been trying to reach a negotiated settlement with Israel since 1976. By 1988 he had publicly disavowed the intention to destroy the state of Israel before the United Nations back in 1988. But then Mossad funded Hamas to weaken the PLO. It is Hamas that wishes to get rid of the state of Israel entirely and sabotaged the Oslo Accords.

It is absolutely not false...Arafat was utterly corrupt, and his long term goal known as the 'phased plan' was to obtain the whole of Israel a bit at a time. As my friend has already pointed out, what he and other Moslem leaders say to the West is simply to placate us trusting idiots, while they carry on implementing their strategy for making Israel into another Moslem State.
 
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Zeek

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No, I don't believe Israel can be given back to the Palestinians at this time. But they can at least give the Palestinians the right to return to Israel if they wish to. We don't tell Native Americans they can't live in the US or leave the reservation.

Many people have this weird idea that Israel stole their country from an indigenous Palestinian people, when the fact is they accepted what little remained of the original Balfour Declaration, and gained more land due to aggression against them...eg...the Arabs wanting to eradicate them and take everything.

The Palestinian refugees can never return to Israel, it is not a viable prospect...many of them came from the surrounding countries and were only in Palestine for a short period anyway, but now we have two generations of Arabs numbering over 5 million that claim Israel is their home...it isn;t going to happen, they should have been absorbed into the Arab nations where they fled, but have been despicably treated by their brethren in the Arab world and used as political fodder.
 
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smaneck

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Originally Posted by Zeek
They are not occupying any sovereign state, they have a necessary presence in Judea and Samaria which is disputed territory to which Israel has a reasonable claim.

If that is the case, then annex all those territories officially and enfranchise all the Palestinians who live there, enabling them to live in whatever part of Israel they wish.

Legally and historically Israel has a far stronger claim on Judea and Samaria than the Palestinian Arabs, but also recognises that some Palestinian Arabs have reasonable claims to some parts.
Legally it is based on the Balfour Declaration

You can't be serious! How does a proclamation made by the British to get Jewish support for WWI constitute a legal right to a country which at the time was part of the Ottoman Empire? Are you forgetting that at the same time the British were promising the same territory to the Arabs via their agreements with the Sharif of Mecca? Of course, they were also making deals to divide practically the entire Middle East with the French via the Sykes-Picot agreement. But I'm glad you brought this up because it does point to who was really responsible for this whole mess. It was the British double-dealing!

and accompanying directives that confirmed and conferred the area into Israeli ownership, and Britain under her mandate of the area was legally supposed to facilitate this.

And how does this mandate system which basically amounted to an extension of Western imperialism constitute a legal right?

Historically the land had a continual Jewish presence in it for over 3,000 years, and no other nation ever made and claims of sovereignity...

Uh, the Ottomans held undisputed sovereignty over Palestine for over 400 years. Arab nationalism isn't born until the 19th century but nationalism anywhere is relatively new idea historically speaking. Also, I don't think it is true that Jews had a continual presence there over the last 3000 years. The Byzantines did not allow Jews to live in Jerusalem. They weren't allowed to return until the rise of the Islamic Empire. However, I did recently find evidence that the majority of the inhabitants of Jerusalem (but not Palestine) were Jews under the Ottoman Empire. It caused me to change my mind about whether Israel should be able to keep Jerusalem as their capital.

Religiously...it features throughout the Bible, and there are solemn promises given by G-d to the Jewish people that it is their land....

You do realize that Jews descend from the Kingdom of Judea, not the entirety of Israel? Their territory roughly coincided with the Gaza Strip. So if you want to use the Bible to justify their getting this territory let them take the Gaza Strip and give the rest of Israel to the Palestinians. It is likely that the Palestinian people are descendants of the Samaritans anyhow. Yes, this is silliness but no more silly than trying to make a biblical claim to the area to begin with.

No one was that bothered with Israel until they saw what the Jews could actually do with the land....

Uh, the Palestinian people bothered with the land.

It is absolutely not false...Arafat was utterly corrupt, and his long term goal known as the 'phased plan' was to obtain the whole of Israel a bit at a time.

Yes, Arafat was corrupt. As for your assertion that his long term goal was a
'phased plan' to obtain the whole of Israel a bit of a time, I challenge you to present evidence of this. It should come from Arab, not Israeli sources.

As my friend has already pointed out, what he and other Moslem leaders say to the West is simply to placate us trusting idiots, while they carry on implementing their strategy for making Israel into another Moslem State.

You do realize that prior to the rise of HAMAS the most terrorist wings of the PLO were the Christian, not the Muslim wings. We can thank Mossad for putting the Islamists at the forefront of this struggle. As for Arafat, he wasn't particularly religious. His wife was a Christian and once the Palestinian Authority was established he attended Christmas services in Bethlehem every year.
 
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smaneck

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Many people have this weird idea that Israel stole their country from an indigenous Palestinian people, when the fact is they accepted what little remained of the original Balfour Declaration, and gained more land due to aggression against them...eg...the Arabs wanting to eradicate them and take everything.

What in the world are you talking about? I don't know of any Palestinians who accepted the Balfour Declaration except maybe the Druzes. And what is this nonsense about Arabs wanting to eradicate Palestinians?

The Palestinian refugees can never return to Israel, it is not a viable prospect...many of them came from the surrounding countries and were only in Palestine for a short period anyway,

Evidence?

but now we have two generations of Arabs numbering over 5 million that claim Israel is their home

Gee, maybe there were quite a few Palestinians after all.

..
.it isn;t going to happen, they should have been absorbed into the Arab nations where they fled

I see. So if someone invades Canada and expels its inhabitants, the US should just quietly accept the refugees.
 
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intojoy

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smaneck said:
No, I just don't think they should have taken someone else's land, unless it was Germany of course. That country they had every right to. That does not mean I think Israel should be pushed into the sea. I believe in a negotiated settlement. And I think they had one with the Oslo Accords, but it the Israelis are at least as responsible for sabotaging those as the Palestinians. And I think this was very deliberate on Netanyahu's part.

Luther wasn't getting senile. His attitude towards the Jews was entirely consistent with the rest of his theology.

Yep. I liked Wycliffe much better. Was he antisemitic? I'd like to know.
 
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TheDirector

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No, I just don't think they should have taken someone else's land, unless it was Germany of course. That country they had every right to.

So from your perspective, it's ok to "ethnically cleanse" Germans, but not Arabs? Thank you for that admittance of racism.
Also, they didn't take anyone else's land. The area was de facto terra nullius. It didn't belong to the British - they just administrered it. It didn't belong to the UN - it just got handed the issue. There was no independent state in the area.

Luther wasn't getting senile. His attitude towards the Jews was entirely consistent with the rest of his theology.

No.....no, it wasn't. Especially not since most of Luther's theology was developed in his early years, where he was quite positive towards the Jews.
But, ok, I shouldn't be expecting much knowledge of Lutheran teachings and theology from someone who thinks that Jesus and Muhammed were essentially the same.
 
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mandelduke

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Not a redneck. I'm a "damn Yankee" from California.

Yes, we stole land from the Native Americans. I'll be the first to admit this. Now how many Israelis will admit they wrongly disinherited the Palestinian people? As I indicated before, not all injustices can be undone. And yes that applies to Israel as much to the US. Healing begins when we admit an injustice was done and figure out what we *can* do. The Chocktaw who remained in Mississippi are doing okay running casinos. In fact they are one of the biggest employers in the state. I see the chief of the Chocktaw nation regularly advertising the Pearl River Casino with her heavy southern drawl saying, "Las Vegas with Sweet Tea."
How about you coming to the Pearl River reservation and tell me how we are doing, I live on dancing rabbit ridge. Israel is just trying to survive they are not trying to rape and plunder.

http://www.choctaw.org/aboutMBCI/history/
 
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smaneck

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How about you coming to the Pearl River reservation and tell me how we are doing, I live on dancing rabbit ridge.


Seriously? My friend Hilliard Lackey goes to the Pearl River Reservation fairly regularly. Maybe I'll go with him next time. I haven't had an occasion to got there before, mostly because while I like sweet tea, I don't gamble.
It was the Chocktaw Indians who told the FBI where the bodies were buried after the killing of the three civil rights workers in Philadelphia, Mississippi back in the sixties. Now practically everybody in Philadelphia works for the Chocktaw

Israel is just trying to survive they are not trying to rape and plunder.

From the Palestinian standpoint, they have already been raped and plundered.
 
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smaneck

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So from your perspective, it's ok to "ethnically cleanse" Germans, but not Arabs? Thank you for that admittance of racism.

Apparently you missed the point. It was the Germans who tried to destroy the Jews making it necessary for Jews to seek a homeland elsewhere. Why should the Palestinians have to pay for the Holocaust they didn't commit?

Also, they didn't take anyone else's land. The area was de facto terra nullius.

It belonged to the people who lived there. Why is that so hard to understand?

There was no independent state in the area.

A people's right to live in their own country does not depend on the existence of an organized state.

No.....no, it wasn't. Especially not since most of Luther's theology was developed in his early years, where he was quite positive towards the Jews.

Luther was initially positive towards the Jews in hopes that they might convert. When they didn't he considered them minions of Satan. Luther was a dualist who believed you were either on God's side or the devil's.

But, ok, I shouldn't be expecting much knowledge of Lutheran teachings and theology from someone who thinks that Jesus and Muhammed were essentially the same.

I studied Luther's theology for three years under the greatest Reformation historian in the world, Heiko Oberman. And I note that you have yet to produce quotes from either Jesus or the Qur'an to substantiate your own position that they are incompatible.
 
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smaneck

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A quick end to this conflict is install the Neo-Ottoman empire and give them the territory lol. It would troll the west quite hard.

I'm sure the Turks would agree. ;-} But they were part of the problem. In the latter half the nineteenth century the Ottoman began to introduce European notions of land ownership which required Palestinians to produce titles which they rarely possessed. Prior to this possession was always linked to use. Landlords were literally lords, who had the right to collect rents but not the right to evict. Since Zionists wished to establish Jewish colonies on this land they evicted the tenants who had often lived there for generations. European Jews often bought their land from rich absentee and sometimes Turkish landlords and deceitful middlemen often were knowingly selling occupied land to Jewish buyers unfamiliar with the territory, local customs, and the language. In a Western-dominated society, we see nothing unusual about the idea that one can erect barriers on one’s land and prevent trespass, but these ideas ran counter to the prevailing patterns in the Middle East. Pastoral and nomadic peoples who moved from place to place suddenly found themselves confronted by fences. There is a really excellent book on this topic by an Israeli scholar Gershon Shafir entitled Land, labor and the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. The root of the problem during this early period was not so much Jew vs. Arab but the more basic fact that European land ownership ideas (which were being adopted by the Ottomans) conveyed an absoluteness that is absent in the traditional conception which always linked possession to use.
 
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