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Young earth, old universe

Discussion in 'Creationism' started by theophilus40, Jul 16, 2014.

  1. theophilus40

    theophilus40 Newbie

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    The Bible tells us that the earth was created only a few thousand years ago. The creation took six days.
    And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
    Genesis 1:3-5 ESV
    Each day consisted of an evening and a morning and had a period of light and one of darkness. Those who believe the earth is old correctly point out the the word “day” can mean a long period of time but the description of the creation days makes it clear they were literal days.

    Most people believe that science has proved that the earth is much older than the Bible says it is. The problem with this belief is that the research supporting this belief begins by assuming that God has never intervened in the natural processes that are at work. This assumption leads to a false interpretation of the data. I have written about this here:

    It’s history, not science | clydeherrin

    There is one question that needs to be answered.
    And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so.

    And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness.

    And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.
    Genesis 1:14-19 ESV

    Many stars are so far away it takes the light from them millions and even billions of years to reach earth. How can we see them if they were created only a few thousand years ago?

    If you read the Bible account carefully you will see that it says that God placed lights in the sky, not that he created the bodies that were the source of those lights. There were three days and three nights before this. That proves that the sun already existed. We have all experienced times when the sky was covered with clouds that kept us from seeing the sun but still allowed light to reach the ground. A condition like this must have existed during the first three days of the earth’s creation.
    The heavens are the LORD’s heavens,
    but the earth he has given to the children of man.
    Psalm 115:16 ESV
    Since the earth is the only part of creation that has been given to us it is reasonable that it is the only part whose creation is described.

    The universe is much older than the earth but there is evidence that it isn’t as old as most people believe. You can find some of that evidence in the January 2011 issue of Answers Magazine. You can read the magazine online here.

    https://answersingenesis.org/answers/magazine/v6-n1/

    The universe didn’t begin with the Big Bang; it was created by God. He just hasn’t revealed to us when or how he created it.

    The age of the earth and the age of the universe are two separate subjects. Belief in a young earth and a young universe creates the problem of how we can see distant stars. Belief in an old earth and an old universe contradicts the plain teaching of the Bible. Belief in a young earth and an old universe presents no Biblical or scientific difficulties.
     
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  2. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Please provide the verse for this claim.
     
  3. wisaak

    wisaak Newbie

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    theophilus40 says:
    The age of the earth and the age of the universe are two separate subjects. Belief in a young earth and a young universe creates the problem of how we can see distant stars. Belief in an old earth and an old universe contradicts the plain teaching of the Bible. Belief in a young earth and an old universe presents no Biblical or scientific difficulties.

    I have considered this possibility myself, and maybe we will get more evidence for it sometime. But I have also recently discovered that scientists methods for determining the distance of stars could be faulty. They could be basing their methods on faulty assumptions. I don't know enough about astronomy to explain it other than that they use the size or color of the redshift, and the theories about that could be wrong. So, if they are wrong perhaps the stars aren't as far away as they say.
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    If the cosmos was created in a "timeless" state, then scientists would not be able to "predict" in reverse what the correct age was. Analysis of all of the "miracles" found in scripture hint that God only works in this "timeless" space.

    37 Miracles of Jesus
    # Miracle Matthew Mark Luke John
    1 Jesus Turns Water into Wine 2:1-11
    2 Jesus Heals an Official's Son 4:43-54
    3 Jesus Drives Out an Evil Spirit 1:21-27 4:31-36
    4 Jesus Heals Peter's Mother-in-Law 8:14-15 1:29-31 4:38-39
    5 Jesus Heals Many Sick at Evening 8:16-17 1:32-34 4:40-41
    6 First Miraculous Catch of Fish 5:1-11
    7 Jesus Cleanses a Man With Leprosy 8:1-4 1:40-45 5:12-14
    8 Jesus Heals a Centurion's Servant 8:5-13 7:1-10
    9 Jesus Heals a Paralytic 9:1-8 2:1-12 5:17-26
    10 Jesus Heals a Man's Withered Hand 12:9-14 3:1-6 6:6-11
    11 Jesus Raises a Widow's Son in Nain 7:11-17
    12 Jesus Calms a Storm 8:23-27 4:35-41 8:22-25
    13 Jesus Casts Demons into a Herd of Pigs 8:28-33 5:1-20 8:26-39
    14 Jesus Heals a Woman in the Crowd 9:20-22 5:25-34 8:42-48
    15 Jesus Raises Jairus' Daughter to Life 9:18,
    23-26 5:21-24,
    35-43 8:40-42,
    49-56
    16 Jesus Heals Two Blind Men 9:27-31
    17 Jesus Heals a Man Unable to Speak 9:32-34
    18 Jesus Heals an Invalid at Bethesda 5:1-15
    19 Jesus Feeds 5,000 14:13-21 6:30-44 9:10-17 6:1-15
    20 Jesus Walks on Water 14:22-33 6:45-52 6:16-21
    21 Jesus Heals Many Sick in Gennesaret 14:34-36 6:53-56
    22 Jesus Heals a Gentile Woman's Demon-Possessed Daughter 15:21-28 7:24-30
    23 Jesus Heals a Deaf and Dumb Man 7:31-37
    24 Jesus Feeds 4,000 15:32-39 8:1-13
    25 Jesus Heals a Blind Man at Bethsaida 8:22-26
    26 Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind 9:1-12
    27 Jesus Heals a Boy with a Demon 17:14-20 9:14-29 9:37-43
    28 Miraculous Temple Tax in a Fish's Mouth 17:24-27
    29 Jesus Heals a Blind, Mute Demoniac 12:22-23 11:14-23
    30 Jesus Heals a Crippled Woman 13:10-17
    31 Jesus Heals a Man With Dropsy on the Sabbath 14:1-6
    32 Jesus Cleanses Ten Lepers 17:11-19
    33 Jesus Raises Lazarus from the Dead 11:1-45
    34 Jesus Restores Sight to Bartimaeus 20:29-34 10:46-52 18:35-43
    35 Jesus Withers the Fig Tree 21:18:22 11:12-14
    36 Jesus Heals a Servant's Severed Ear 22:50-51
    37 Second Miraculous Catch of Fish 21:4-11
     
  5. RareLight

    RareLight RareUniverse

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    This supposes that the Bible says how old the Earth is. It does not. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..." Verse 1 of Gen 1 occurs before the first day of the creation week, which describes God transforming the Earth. All of the creation days start with the phrase "Then God said", leaving the first verse undated.

    If the days were supposed to be literal 24 hour days, why are plants commanded to grow? Why are animals commanded to reproduce? All of the commands of God are fulfilled on the day they are commanded, so these commands would be as well. Since trees growing and animals reproducing take long periods of time to occur, the simplest interpretation is that the days in this passage refer to ages in history. This needed no additional explanation because the Hebrew word "yom" can mean "age". The "evening and morning" phrases are to indicate the beginning and ending of each age.
     
  6. KrAZeD

    KrAZeD Newbie

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    Because your presuming growth/reproduction were already implemented before God gave them the command to do so. Presuming God had just got done either placing a full tree at point "x" and a shrub at point "v" He then gave it permission to grow- without that permission the tree would stay exactly the same as when He decided to create it and place it. - This is also a time when you must look further that one verse; the end "goal" was food for animals- plants would need to grow to feed animals/Man. This is also vis versa, plants growing with nothing keeping them in check (animals) they would become over abundant. If the concept of food doesn't appeal to you then how about the concept of giving man something to productively do during the day- tend to the garden- gen 2:15

    actually that's the more complex interpretation. He gave the command to grow, and the command to reproduce- prior to that they would have done neither. Those men in those days would understand without that command their would G no flocks/herds to tend since animals would G limited to the exact number God had first made. Without that command their would G no farms or gathering of herbs/berries since their would only G a specific number that were created. Also simple is seeing God rehash the 7th day as a sabbath to moses and His children reiterating what a day was- a 24 hour cycle of light/dark.

    so plants no longer grow and animals are no longer reproducing? Prior to that command/blessing they would not have happened- their is nothing saying it was for only a single time/day/event and not for a continual action- as seen by growth and reproduction continuing to this very day- which inarguably is past the 3rd day of that growth command and past that fifth day of reproduction command.
     
  7. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Read the letters to the churches in the New Testament.
    There are no such problems. When did this problem crop up?
    Comparatively.....last week.
     
  8. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    This all happened in The Garden.
    Man has been banned from there.

    After that, time and decay, began.
     
  9. Calminian

    Calminian Senior Veteran

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    I used to subscribe to this. The problem is, at the end of the six days the author proclaims the completion of the heavens and the earth, linking it back to verse 1. The six days is actually sandwiched between these two statements.

    In the beginning God crested the heavens and the earth (1:1)......the six days (2-31)......thus the heavens and earth were completed (2:1). This makes it impossible to separate the six days from the context of the creation of the heavens and the earth back in verse 1.

    [​IMG]

    It's textually impossible to separate the six days from the creation of the heavens and the earth.

    Here's an article that goes into the exegetical aspects of this debate. It deals with the view of Historical Creationism that espouses a similar view to what you described above.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2015
  10. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Nothing "new" is being created. Correct.
    Just reproduction of what already had
    been
    designed and created.
     
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    True. But it is textually impossible to match up vegetation on day two,
    then sun, moon , and stars on day three....with our current lifestyle.
     
  12. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi skywriting,

    I'm not sure what you are saying there, but I'm guessing that it is some claim that plants can't live for 24 hours without the sun. Quite frankly that happens around my house from time to time. I have plants down in my basement that I have to take out from time to time to give them access to sunlight, but they actually do pretty well for well over 24 hours without it.

    Of course the first problem with your logic is that you are basing it on what man can do and not what God can do. God can make water stand as a wall several dozen feet tall. Man can't. God can make the sun to go backwards in its course across the sky. Man can't. God can make the sun to stand still in the sky for hours. Man can't. Most everything that God does in this realm man can't do. God can make an ass to talk. Well, perhaps man can do that.

    God bless you.
    In Christ, Ted
     
  13. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Ok Granted....will your seeds grow, fruit and be ready for eating on day 5?
    A man likes to eat.

    Or does the Bible describe an earth that has all the properties
    of something older than 5 days?
     
  14. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi SK,

    They will if God wants them to. According to the 2nd chapter of Genesis, God planted a garden just for a place for Adam and Eve to live. I believe that that garden had fruit on the day that it was created. It is just as easy for God to create a young, immature sapling as it is for him to create a fully mature tree. That's what He did with Adam. Adam didn't grow through the stages of baby, child, teen to man. He was created as a fully formed and mature adult male. Similarly with Eve. I don't see any problem with God being able to also, in a garden that He created to sustain the life of the creature that He was creating, create fruited trees and other plants.

    Yes, the Scriptures describe an earth that has all the properties of an older creation, but wasn't. Just as Adam was created with all the properties of an older person, but wasn't.

    God bless you.
    In Christ, Ted
     
  15. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    It's taken months for me to get somebody to say that....but it was worth it.

    The Cosmos has all the properties of an OLD Cosmos!

    So lets stop giving some of the old earth people a hard time.
    AND
    lets stop giving some of the young earth people a hard time.

    According to scripture, they are both right.

    Thanks Ted!
     
  16. Smidlee

    Smidlee Veteran

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    It's like watching Star Trek where the Enterprise has to travel two week to the nearest star-base and arrives there after 2 minutes of commercials. How is that possible? Hollywood are time-lords over their creation.
     
  17. captiveheart

    captiveheart Newbie

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    I've thought on this subject a great deal. Everything the Bible claims could have been done in a very short period of time if God utilized his full authority over all of the physics involved. What is becoming more interesting to me is how science continues to uncover more mysteries than it seems to solve. We still don't know what gravity is. We have theories of what the smallest particles in the universe are yet we are unable to adequately explain the force that holds it all together. Christians have been taught that all things are held together by Christ. All is all, right? Interesting to me that scientists have "discovered" another quantum particle they are calling the Higgs Boson. They playfully call it the "God Particle", because they believe it literally holds everything together at the quantum level. Another interesting fairly current theory is that everything is made from vibrating strings (string theory). I find this theory interesting because Christians know God "spoke" the universe into existence. We know the power of the spoken Word. A command spoken by God just may have brought things into existence by the vibration initiated by God speaking.

    I love watching all of these shows about The Cosmos, The Universe, Through the Wormhole and Universe Explained. I can't help but chuckle a little each time a scientist puts forth a new theory of everything they wind up answering a few questions but there are always other things that seem to pop up that they simply cannot explain. When we all come to fully know God only then will we fully know our universe. We tend to think of the universe mostly as the planets, galaxies and stars but then we have newer things like "dark matter", "dark energy", "inflation" and then there's the super small, the quantum level of the universe and nothing there seems to play by the same rules that planets and stars do. All of these things are typical theories that attempt to explain what cannot be seen or understood. Why doesn't light escape from a black hole? What happens to matter that falls into a black hole? Does time exist in a black hole? Some seem to believe that at the edge of a black hole, time stops and if time and space are a fabric. Does space and matter disappear when time stops? Is time nothing more than a human perception. Some scientists theorize that all time exists right now just as the universe exists right now. I think most Christians believe that God exists outside of what we perceive as time. This is how God knows everything, he is everywhere and every when at every moment.

    God put the evidence of himself in his creation. When the earth was "dated" to be 4.6 billion years old it was calculated by measuring what percentage of a piece uranium turned to lead. Scientists declared that uranium decays at a constant rate. Based on the rate of decay, a rock with uranium in it can be dated by calculating the lead content and then calculating how long it had to take for the uranium to decay down to that percentage of lead. Of course the assumption is that in the history of the universe, uranium has always decayed at exactly the same rate. I think it's a good theory but how can you verify that Uranium has decayed at the same rate since the beginning of time? Research now shows that many factors can affect the breakdown of Uranium into lead. My favorite pastor used to say "When I was in school they taught us that it's a fact the earth was 1 billion years old. Now they tell us it's a fact the earth is 4.6 billion years old… and it wasn't that long ago I went to school". Here's a link to an article about where Uranium comes from. You can see, there are many factors that can affect how fast Uranium turns into lead. http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/N...nium-Resources/The-Cosmic-Origins-of-Uranium/

    I think it was last year there was a lot of talk that the science of global warming is settled science. I believe there is no such thing as settled science, there is only God's will.
     
  18. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    If we agree that at least one miracle happened, say, Adam was created, then we have to ask what happened to his childhood years. This is why scientific assumptions won't ever match with scripture.
     
  19. Calminian

    Calminian Senior Veteran

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    LOL. I keep responding to the same post. Anyone else have trouble keeping track of their conversations?
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
  20. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    An yet that is what you just did, even your illustration puts Gen 1:1 by itself. All we know about the creation of the universe is that it was, 'in the beginning' at some point, perhaps immediately following, perhaps billions of years later the Holy Spirit is hovering above the surface of the deep, when water and darkness covered the fact of the earth.

    People who take the Genesis account figuratively fail to account for the progression of thought. For example:

    For who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? And that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky? And who is so foolish as to suppose that God, after the manner of a husbandman, planted a paradise in Eden, towards the east, and placed in it a tree of life, visible and palpable, so that one tasting of the fruit by the bodily teeth obtained life? And again, that one was a partaker of good and evil by masticating what was taken from the tree? And if God is said to walk in the paradise in the evening, and Adam to hide himself under a tree, I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance, and not literally. (Origen of Alexandria)​

    The flaws in this logic are evident and obvious. God created the heavens and the earth from nothing, bara, an ex nihilo creation and later would make and set the creation in order. The sun, moon and stars were already created unless you think the earth was floating in an empty universe for three days. When the account of Eden is used the word for plants indicate domestic plants that had not sprung up yet, not to be confused with wild plants already growing and being watered by some kind of a mist.

    Origen was a mystic but his was not a majority view. Some took Genesis 1 figuratively but their expositions never stand up to close scrutiny. By what criteria should anything be considered figurative? The obvious answer is figurative language and Genesis 1 has none.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the earth and the universe are necessarily billions of years old, just that if they are it makes no difference to a literal Genesis 1. The creation of life in general and man in particular was about 6.000 years ago, that much is clear throughout the OT and the NT genealogies of Matthew and Luke.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
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