You will NEVER see a bird land on an energized transmission line 69KV or greater

[sjastro]

Don't you find it bizarre that nobody has published information on what level of a difference of potential, induction will occur across the air, and at what rate it occurs in proportion to both voltage and amperage combined?

...It seems like there's a whole arena of questions in regards to this electrical phenomena, that seems to be "disregarded", for some reason.

The big two-part question is this:
*At what numerical difference does the air become ionized between two ungrounded potentials..? How "vast" does that numerical difference need to be prior to the ionization of the air?*

Also, what role do hertz play in perpetuating this difference in potential?

Why do assume if you don't know something then no one else does.
The dielectric strength of air is around 3 kV/mm.

 

[sjastro]

@sjastro, and @SelfSim, what do you suppose would be the effect of 500KV circuit in space, where there is no air? Would the arc be free to jump farther between the line and a capacitive material, or shorter, considering air is kind of insulation... Hypothetically.

I would imagine that in a vacuum, it would behave differently.

In a (perfect) vacuum there is no arcing, no dielectric breakdown because there is nothing to breakdown.

 

[Halbhh]

@sjastro, and @SelfSim, what do you suppose would be the effect of 500KV circuit in space, where there is no air? Would the arc be free to jump farther between the line and a capacitive material, or shorter, considering air is kind of insulation... Hypothetically.

I would imagine that in a vacuum, it would behave differently.

In order for there to be any kind of electric flow ('current') there has to be an actual movement of electric charge, and that's free electrons and/or ions (particles that have a net charge).

To create an flow of charged particles in space, electrical force and/or magnetic force would need to be large enough to move any charged articles, such as to first pull or break them free of an already existing attachment if no freely floating (gaseous) particles are available. Free particles (gaseous and loose, not bound to anything) would flow with only a modest electric potential (force). But, bound particles in contrast would require a very large field/force to break them free, and it's an interesting experiment to imagine (I'd imagine we'd have to use a metal, where it could release free electrons from a pointed tip, for instance, to reduce the field strength needed to something doable). Maybe an experiment like set up a Van de Graaff device but attach wires from each sphere to a pair of separated metal electrode tips inside a vacuum chamber.

(update: since there would be no air in the chamber, you'd not be able to merely visually see the discharge as you normally would in a Van de Graaff discharge, where the nitrogen excited by the electric flow emits light and also air heated by the flow incandesces. In a vacuum, there would be no air to be excited or heated up to emit any light. So, you'd perhaps only know of a discharge according to the instrumental readings of voltage or such.)

 

[FredVB]

since there would be no air in the chamber, you'd not be able to merely visually see the discharge as you normally would in a Van de Graaff discharge, where the nitrogen excited by the electric flow emits light and also air heated by the flow incandesces. In a vacuum, there would be no air to be excited or heated up to emit any light. So, you'd perhaps only know of a discharge according to the instrumental readings of voltage or such.

Perhaps a bird would be able to see it still.

So if that is the case, we could never see lightning in space.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Perhaps a bird would be able to see it still.

So if that is the case, we could never see lightning in space.

I believe birds can see the magnetic field surrounding the circuits.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In order for there to be any kind of electric flow ('current') there has to be an actual movement of electric charge, and that's free electrons and/or ions (particles that have a net charge).

To create an flow of charged particles in space, electrical force and/or magnetic force would need to be large enough to move any charged articles, such as to first pull or break them free of an already existing attachment if no freely floating (gaseous) particles are available. Free particles (gaseous and loose, not bound to anything) would flow with only a modest electric potential (force). But, bound particles in contrast would require a very large field/force to break them free, and it's an interesting experiment to imagine (I'd imagine we'd have to use a metal, where it could release free electrons from a pointed tip, for instance, to reduce the field strength needed to something doable). Maybe an experiment like set up a Van de Graaff device but attach wires from each sphere to a pair of separated metal electrode tips inside a vacuum chamber.

(update: since there would be no air in the chamber, you'd not be able to merely visually see the discharge as you normally would in a Van de Graaff discharge, where the nitrogen excited by the electric flow emits light and also air heated by the flow incandesces. In a vacuum, there would be no air to be excited or heated up to emit any light. So, you'd perhaps only know of a discharge according to the instrumental readings of voltage or such.)

I assume you are talking about larger distances than are available in a vacuum tube?

 

[Halbhh]

I assume you are talking about larger distances than are available in a vacuum tube?

I'm not familiar with old fashioned vacuum tubes other than seeing them. (for instance, I wonder if they use a capacitance, and with vacuum as an insulator, and have a possibility of overloading that?)

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm not familiar with old fashioned vacuum tubes other than seeing them. (for instance, I wonder if they use a capacitance, and with vacuum as an insulator, and have a possibility of overloading that?)

My descriptions won't help much. Look it up. I myself am not entirely complete in my understanding of the theory.

 

[jacks]

I believe birds can see the magnetic field surrounding the circuits.

This wouldn't surprise me. Maybe they don't "see" it but they can sense it, how else fly south for the winter? I also think scavenger birds (think buzzards) can see hidden dead things from quite a distance. I have seen them circling over dead carcass (deer) that are completely hidden by foliage from the air. It always baffled us. (Yes, I lived with a lot of buzzard activity.) We also thought maybe they can "see" smell or have some way of detecting dead things without sight. By the way Turkey Vultures (buzzards) migrate all the way from South America and they don't get lost...

 

[Halbhh]

This wouldn't surprise me. Maybe they don't "see" it but they can sense it, how else fly south for the winter? I also think scavenger birds (think buzzards) can see hidden dead things from quite a distance. I have seen them circling over dead carcass (deer) that are completely hidden by foliage from the air. It always baffled us. (Yes, I lived with a lot of buzzard activity.) We also thought maybe they can "see" smell or have some way of detecting dead things without sight. By the way Turkey Vultures (buzzards) migrate all the way from South America and they don't get lost...

If so, (and it seems plausible), then we might wonder also whether such birds (the ones good at this) might avoid highly magnetic power lines such as energized power lines. As a speculative idea-hyporhesis.

@Landon Caeli

But its clear a wide variety of birds don't avoid energized power lines. (Pretty much any power line you see is energized except the ground line (**see explanation in new post just below**))

 

[Halbhh]

I called it a ground line/wire, since it is one, but it may be called some other specific name in the industry, as its got a specific job.

It's the smaller unpowered wire on top meant to conduct lightning to ground.
https://www.mto.com.tr/single-post/High-Voltage-Power-Transmission-Lines-Lightning-Protection

 

[FredVB]

In order for there to be any kind of electric flow ('current') there has to be an actual movement of electric charge, and that's free electrons and/or ions (particles that have a net charge).

To create an flow of charged particles in space, electrical force and/or magnetic force would need to be large enough to move any charged articles, such as to first pull or break them free of an already existing attachment if no freely floating (gaseous) particles are available. Free particles (gaseous and loose, not bound to anything) would flow with only a modest electric potential (force). But, bound particles in contrast would require a very large field/force to break them free, and it's an interesting experiment to imagine (I'd imagine we'd have to use a metal, where it could release free electrons from a pointed tip, for instance, to reduce the field strength needed to something doable). Maybe an experiment like set up a Van de Graaff device but attach wires from each sphere to a pair of separated metal electrode tips inside a vacuum chamber.

This apparently is a good argument against the explanation of the universe acting as an electrical universe. https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Universe-Wallace-Thornhill-Talbott/dp/0977285138

 

[FredVB]

I found the book on the electric universe many years ago in the library, I read it or much of it and I entertained the idea it could be true. But that diminished and I became more aware that there were movements involved in dismissing the great role gravity has. There is evidence of that and there wasn't of such range for electrical effect, which would also depend on differences of charge. So this about the range is significant and something to still have to use in any event that comes up again.

 

[tas8831]

Exactly. Yet birds know this somehow... Otherwise they wouldn't land on distribution lines. They wouldn't land on any lines.

What are you implying? That birds understand electricity? Could it not just be their senses?

 

[Landon Caeli]

What are you implying? That birds understand electricity? Could it not just be their senses?

It's already known in the science world that birds use earth's magnetic field to navigate their migratory patterns... So it's not hard to imagine they also sense the magnetic field surrounding a transmission circuit somehow, even though many self-professed scientists here like to argue tooth and nail against it... I don't know what the problem is. Probably because it doesn't say "atheist" under my name, there's instant bias and out-group posturing taking place.


Field lines from a power line

 

[tas8831]

It's already known in the science world that birds use earth's magnetic field to navigate their migratory patterns... So it's not hard to imagine they also sense the magnetic field surrounding a transmission circuit somehow, even though many self-professed scientists here like to argue tooth and nail against it... I don't know what the problem is. Probably because it doesn't say "atheist" under my name, there's instant bias and out-group posturing taking place.

Um, no, it has to do with your word choice.

I totally accept/agree that birds can detect these things with their senses. But that is not the same as "knowing" something.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Um, no, it has to do with your word choice.

I totally accept/agree that birds can detect these things with their senses. But that is not the same as "knowing" something.

...As if "knowledge" is so special of a word. So precise... So debatable... Give me a break, people.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Um, no, it has to do with your word choice.

I totally accept/agree that birds can detect these things with their senses. But that is not the same as "knowing" something.

16 pages and nobody has had that complaint yet. It's because I'm not an atheist, and it's obvious.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

16 pages and nobody has had that complaint yet. It's because I'm not an atheist, and it's obvious.

I call 'POE'

 

[Tinker Grey]

I call 'POE'

I call "argumentum ad martyrdom" or "Galileo's gambit". (Not on Frumious.)