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Featured You must PROVE you LOVE the LORD to be saved!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Mar 5, 2019.

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  1. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I think you have otherwise good post, but I think it is not accurate to say “one must prove he loves”. One must be righteous to have eternal life. And if person is righteous, he loves God and it shows person is righteous.

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    It is like in the parable, good tree produces good fruit and bad tree produces bad fruit. Person must be a “good tree” to have eternal life. But it is not the “fruit” that is the reason for life, it is the mind that produces the good “fruit” that is crucial and wanted.

    Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
    Matt. 7:17-20

    That is why I think it would be better to say, it is required that person is righteous. And if person is righteous, he produces righteous actions.

    He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
    1 John 3:7-10
     
  2. Sojourner1

    Sojourner1 Following my Shepherd Supporter

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    We don't have to prove our Love of God in order to be saved. Our love of God is the evidence (proof) that we are truly saved.
     
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  3. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Where in Scripture does it say this?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
  4. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    One proves his love by his actions.

    And the one who is righteous (in God's eyes) will naturally be proving his love for God by doing such.

    IMO, it is more clearly stated thusly:
    One must prove His love for God.
    Prove it to God (and to man, if one insists).
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
  5. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    However, to be saved doesn't require that we love God to be saved as your title suggests.

    "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." 1 John 4:10

    It's not about how much we love God. It's about how much He loves us.
     
  6. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    If only people would believe Scripture!

    Don't the Scriptures in the OP prove that
    BACs need to love God to be saved?
    And to prove it by their actions?

    Christianity is NOT loving certain Scriptures,
    and ignoring and/or rejecting others that are not loved.
     
  7. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    I see those verses telling us that IF you love God, THEN you would obey His commandments. However, I don't see them saying that if you want to be saved, then you must love God, and that if you don't love Him, or love Him enough, then you aren't saved.
     
  8. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    I must recommend that you consider this thread ...
    Reasons why many BACs are spiritually blind
     
  9. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    No.
    We cannot love God on our own and of ourselves. We love because he first loved us. We were dead in our sins, far from God and incapable of loving or being in fellowship with him - UNTIL he saved us.

    If people needed to prove their love for God before they could be saved, no one would be.
     
  10. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Yes, have you ever heard of connecting the dots,
    reading between the lines, being led by the Spirit, etc?

    In the OP, I asked: Does anyone get into heaven
    who does not love Jesus?


    What is your answer?
     
  11. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    I give you your own signature.
    Romans 6:16-19, NLT)
    "... for those who are not holy
    will not see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14, NLT)
     
  12. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    That is a theory but the Bible says if we love God then we obey Him. It is not say if we truly know God's love we obey Him. Adam and Eve surely knew God's love and that did not help them avoid sin and what it offered them. I have known a few parents who really loved their kids and that did not mean the kids did not go out and make a mess out of their lives in sin. They truly knew they were loved but that is not a defense against sin. I know this is a popular thought that if only we knew God's love we would be different but I do not see this in the Bible or in real life.
    He first loved us true. But if we never go on to loving Him, the first and most important commandment, we will never grow. We will remain infants enjoying what the parent gives and never learning to give back. Mature children give to their parents as well.

    This is another popular thought, focusing solely on what God gives us and bemoaning that we do not yet fully know what He gives us so let us pursue knowing how much we loves us and what he gives us. Narcissism pure. If a child told their father that they were going to focus on how much the father loves them instead of showing love to their father, I doubt the response would be positive.
     
  13. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    When is the starting point over? When something starts with a matter, after a time one needs to MOVE ON FROM THE STARTING POINT. Some do stay there though. They actually never do move on to anything but the start.
    Does not require being filled to obey. Not at all. Does not require an attitude or emotion or feeling good or ready. It requires a determination to obey and asking for grace to help in the moments of choice. Waiting for feeling love by God will not happen if we do not obey. Jesus said those who love him keep his teaching and to those the Father will come and they will make their home in that man. Obedience comes before the infilling
    OK, lots of people are foolish. But once taken that is not the end of the story. That should o nly be the beginning but for many, it seems, it is the end. Endlessly wanting to know God's love instead of pursuing loving God.
    All true. The question is HOW are we to receive this? To whom does GOd give these? Looking at the church or our own lives, we find they do not come like simply breathing, something we do not have to think about but is automatic. This is the point. What do we need to do or ask or whatever to receive?
    Well, Jesus said that if we keep his teaching, that is, obey his commands to us, then the Father and He will come and take up residence in us. The business of knowing Christ is not a matter of merely receving something. Does not work that way. We cannot be passive hoping He is doing it all.

    "You have not because you ask not" is one reason, for example.
     
  14. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    I’d like to know his answer to that too. Looks to me like the whole focus is avoiding hell and what one needs to do, not right relationship with God at all.
     
  15. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Of course we do.
    We obey him because we love him, know his love and how much he loves us.
    When you love someone and are in a relationship with them, you want to obey them - if you know that something makes them happy you want to do that thing.

    If we don't know, and haven't received, God's love, how can we obey his command to love others as he loves us - with his Agape love? Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8; the spotless Lamb of God gave his life for the ungodly. There are some Christians who won't give others the time of day, talk to or help them if they are committing a particular sin, or unless they have shown an interest in the church or otherwise done something to deserve their attention. There are some who would only forgive if they think the other person is suitably contrite or deserves to be forgiven. How is that even human love, never mind selfless Agape love? We are able to show God's perfect Agape love to others only if we have received it ourselves.

    No, sadly not.
    But children need to find their own way and find out for themselves - we all do really, it's how we learn.
    If someone says "that is too difficult/dangerous for you to do and you can't/shouldn't do it" - do you think "well, I'd better not do, or try it, then, they know best", or do you think "WHY do they consider that I can't do/achieve this thing/what are the dangers/what's wrong with this gang, or taking this substance?" etc.
    Parents can sometimes be wrong, and not know their children as well as they think.

    No, but mostly people who truly love others will not want to do anything to hurt them.
    In the case of children, there may be natural curiosity, teenage rebellion or a need to test the parents' love. But if they DO love them, and see over and over again how much they are loved, they will try not to hurt them.

    We love BECAUSE he first loved us.
    We have been commanded to love as he loved us - we can only love, and love in the way God does if we know, and have received, that love.
    I don't know about anyone else, but when I think about the cross and how much God loves me, when I read that nothing will ever be able to separate me from that love, that no one will ever be able to snatch me from his hands, and that he wants me to be his child and have every spiritual blessing - that causes me to respond in worship, and a desire to receive more of his love and to know him better. It started with God's love.

    In my experience, love responds to love. We were made in love by a God who IS love. We were made to love, and can only do so because God has created us with the ability to love.
    If we know we are loved - by someone who is loving, kind, considerate, etc - we will love them. Then we will give to them/do as they say through love - not blind obedience motivated by fear.

    No.
    We cannot respond to love if we do not believe in it and have not received it.
    As a teenager I did many good things for the church, for God and for other people. I didn't believe that God loved me, I did them from a hope that he would at least approve of me. That doesn't mean that showing kindness etc was wasted, or not a good thing. But it was not obeying God's command to loves as he loved me - because I didn't KNOW, or believe, how much he loved me.
    Obeying God means so much more than doing nice, kind things - it means loving sinners, the unlovely and our enemies, forgiving 70x7, not condemning or judging, and so on. Love is everything in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 - is never rude, always trusts, hopes, protects and never gives up. We can't show that kind of love unless we have received it first from God.

    Don't you think that focusing on, realising and receiving their father's love might not prompt the child to show love in return and WANT to obey him?
     
  16. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Never.
    We should constantly receive, and want to receive, God's love.

    Move on from receiving God's love?
    Tell him that we have received enough, don't need any more and can do things on our own, and in our own strength, from now on? Impossible.

    I am certain that if someone KNOWS, really knows, how much God loves them with all their sins, bad thoughts, wrong motives and messed up past - and begins to RECEIVE his love with thanks and gratitude; they will respond, and want to respond, in love and obedience.
    "Love one another as I have loved you", John 13:34.
    If someone doesn't know how God has loved, and does love, them, how will they be able to love in the same way?

    So how do you suggest we obey God if we do not have, and are filled with, his love?
    What are we obeying?
    His command to love our enemies? How would we do that, on our own, without having received, and been filled with, God's love?
    His command to love as he loves us? If we don't know how God loves us, how can we obey the command to love in the same way?
    His command to go into the world, preach the Gospel and make disciples? How do you suggest we preach about God's love if we don't know that love for ourselves?

    That's not what love is.
    Read 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 - where does it say anything about "feeling good", "having nice, warm feelings"?

    We love BECAUSE he first loved us.

    It does with me - it happens every time I think about his love, shown on the cross.
    Love is much more than feeling and nice emotions.

    "God has poured his love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit", Romans 5:5.
    "See how much love the Father has lavished on us", 1 John 3:1
    "This is how we know what love is; Jesus Christ laid down his life for us", 1 John 3:16
    "There is nothing in all creation that can separate us from the love of God", Romans 8:39

    Where, in any of those verses, and others, are the words "have nice, gooey feelings towards God"?

    Jesus said that those who love him will keep his commandments.
    He has commanded us to love as he loves - how do you suggest we keep that if we don't know how much he loves us?

    How do we keep God's commands to love if we don't know what love is?

    But we can't give until we have received. We can't share what we don't have.
    I took part in a beach mission, years ago. It wasn't my choice, I was doing a Christian voluntary work scheme and everyone had to do one. I didn't enjoy it, and was unable to go to people to tell them how much God loved them; I had no assurance of that love in my own life - it would have been like someone dressed in rags offering designer clothes. Ok, granted the people on the street could not see at a glance that I didn't know, or have, God's love, but they would have done if they had asked any questions, and I could not have said "I KNOW God's love; I have received it."

    He IS doing, and HAS done, it all.
    He created us - without our knowledge, help or permission.
    He saved us - without our knowledge, help or permission.
    He has made it possible for us to know him, receive his forgiveness, his Son, his Spirit, reconciliation with him, peace, eternal life and every spiritual blessing - all without our help, obedience or co-operation.
    Saying "well I can't leave it all to him; I can't sit back and receive, I must show I am worthy", is pride.

    The wages of sin is death, Romans 3:23.
    Unless we accept that we cannot save ourselves and that Jesus has done so, we cannot come to God, pray, receive from him or love him. Without forgiveness and reconciliation with God, we are dead in our sins, godless, walking in the dark etc.
     
  17. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    So if we asked the believers here in what ways they obeyed God this week, do you think many will be able to answer? If we ask them if the know his love will they more easily say yes? I know this theory and no one in the Bible said this, that we need to know his love first. What is more, people who have known love still do terrible things. Knowing real love is not a cure for sin.
    We are talking believers who know. We need to move from non-believers who do not know to believers. You keep refering back to non-believers here.
    Jesus told the story of the man who was forgiven a terribly huge debt. He knew the relief of being forgiven. What did he do? He demanded another guy pay him the small debt he was owed. He knew the love of forgiveness. He knew it well. Still he went out and was unforgiving. Knowing love does not mean one is loving. Sorry but I see the Bible as saying that is not a cure nor a help. No one says if you know the love of God you WILL BE loving to others. This lets us off way too easily. We have to choose what we do, not wait until being loved overwhelms our selfishness.
    All of this is true. But it shows that knowing real love does not mean the children make good choices. That is my point.
    There are those who love their family but in moments when selfish feelings overwhelm them, they do hurt those they love. If we were honest, all of us do that at times. We love our family but when we are hurt, we lash out. It is not that unusual. We love and we still hurt others.
    This is sadly just not true. Being loved is not the answer. Us choosing to love others as we love ourselves is the answer although that is not on our own strength.
    Yes, but we need to go on and love God and man and not focus on how much we feel loved. That is only th e beginning. One needs to move on in order to mature.
    No one in the Bible says this. There are many Christians who will tell you that they know that God loves them. Does this mean they obey God 100%? If your theory were true, they would. We are more complex than that.
    But it seems to go no where else besides what you get. And by the way, sin still separates you from God if you sin. If we continue in sin, we can lose what God gave. There is no refusing the clear stand God takes on not forgiving others. If we do not forgive others sins against us, we WILL NO LONGER BE FORGIVEN. The king who resended the forgiveness of the debt brought it back on the man who refused to forgive others. Sin separates us from God. No one can snatch you but you can jump out of his hand. I know the other feels really good but it is a false doctrine that brings false comfort. Many will say "Lord Lord" to Jesus and he will them to leave. They thought they were secure but they were not.
    Well, I am being truthful when I tell you that I am glad your life has been so blessed, that no one you loved and know you loved them ever hurt you, not even once. That is really remarkable. And that you have never ever hurt anyone who loved you in thought, word or deed. That is really great to hear. I know no one who claims this sort of life, never been hurt by those you love and never hurt anyone who loved you. Kudos to you . (I am not being sarcastic but really truly impressed.)
    There is not a person on the planet who does not believe in love and never received it beyond the aborted child.
    I assume you now know you are loved which is great. The more who know this the better.
    So you are never the above things right? You never are rude and always trusts and hopes and protects, right?
    The man forgiven a huge debt did not show mercy in return. He wanted his money back. This is not that uncommon which is why Jesus taught it. Not everyone has such a nice life that they have never hurt anyone who loved them and were never hurt by anyone they loved. Must of us have done and experienced both. We have been forgiven and have forgiven which is what one needs to do when hurting those who love us or being hurt by those whom we love. That is, I am afraid, the norm.
     
  18. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    You also need to visit this thread ...
    Reasons why many BACs are spiritually blind

    We're not talking about BEFORE becoming BACs.
    We're talking about AFTER becoming BACs.

    We're talking about BACs loving the Lord enough
    to actually obey His commandments!
    This is about as simply as I can state it.
     
  19. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Most people in today's American churches are told
    they made the big CHOICE to believe in Jesus ...
    and that's the end of it.

    However, the truth is: that's only the beginning of it.

    BACs must make correct CHOICES
    ... out of their love for Him ...
    to keep what He has freely given them!

    Because salvation is a loving relationship of
    co-operation between God and man!

    Yes, the NT reveals through MANY verses that
    SALVATION IS A PROCESS, which ends at death.

    If the process was a successful one ... heaven.
    If the process was NOT a successful one ... hell.

    Sorry, but that's what the NT clearly teaches!

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    IMO, this resolves the conflict amongst all the NT verses
    concerning eternal security, i.e. OSAS ...vs… NO OSAS:
    True saving belief = enduring faith-trust-obedience
    Those who “follow” Jesus “faithfully” are those who love
    Him and who are “obedient” to His commandments!

    ------------------------------------------------------------
     
  20. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yes - why do you think that they won't?

    Ask and see - start a thread on how we have obeyed God and known his love this week.

    We love BECAUSE he loved first us.
    GOD loved, we responded, accepted him and received his love; now we love too.

    Knowing God's love means it is far more likely that we will do nothing to deliberately hurt him.
    It is not a cast iron guarantee, no - because we are still human, still weak, still seduced by the world, the flesh and the devil.

    So was I.
    But it's still possible to go to church, hear about God and know the Scriptures which say that God loves us, without really knowing that love for ourselves.
    As a teenager I could have recited by heart the verses that spoke of God's love - I still didn't believe he loved me.

    That is a parable, and Jesus never said that the people in debt were those who knew God and had accepted his love. I thought you didn't want to talk about unbelievers?

    The Bible says that were are to love others as he has loved us. How can we show God's perfect, holy, unconditional love to others unless we have received it ourselves?

    Children are not always mature enough to make good choices - and sometimes lack the will power to make them.

    Yes, we do - we're still human.
    None of that changes the fact that we love because God first loved us, and if we are to keep his command to love with his love, we need to first receive it.

    By humans or by God?
    We may not be able to show perfect love even when we have and know God's love - but I know for a fact we won't be able to show love without it.

    Who said anything about focusing on FEELING loved?
    We love because God first loved us. When we have received love and love God we will want to go out, love others and obey Jesus' words, including his command to love - not sit in a little corner going "oh goody, I am loved".

    I doubt they would have been able to write about God's love unless they had experienced it.
    After the resurrection, Jesus didn't say to Peter "let's talk about your betrayal", or "I told you so" or even "do you want forgiveness and have you said 'sorry'?" He asked if Peter loved him and only THEN did he give Peter work to do.
    John is referred to as the disciple Jesus loved. He loved them all, of course, but John must have known his love in a special, maybe deeper, way.

    How do you know what God's love for me leads me to to do and where it takes me?

    Until we confess and are forgiven, yes.

    IF.
    We will still sin and make mistakes, but when we accept Christ we are a NEW creation with a NEW heart. We are born again, born of the Holy Spirit - and the fruit of the Spirit is love.

    I know.

    Or choose to walk away, I know.
    I can't think why anyone who truly knows God's love would want to, but we still have a choice.

    Where did I say that?
    I'm talking about God's love. I'm saying that if we truly know God's love we will not want to do anything to deliberately hurt him. Sin and eternal death hurts God. He has saved us from them, however - so why would we want to throw that in his face and live as though we'd never received forgiveness and eternal life?

    I thought you didn't want to talk about non Christians?

    I'm saying there is a BIG difference between doing something because God has asked us to do it and we love him and are serving him out of love - and doing something that God has asked out of fear, and with reluctance.
     
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