You must PROVE you LOVE the LORD to be saved!

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Dorothy Mae

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And what sins, or what kind of disobedience are we talking about here...?
Whatever ones a person does. It varys from person to person.
See, cause much of the time, I think we have the wrong focus, or our poles are reversed, were not looking at the heart, or purity of heart, were looking at the outside of the cup instead of the inside of it, in ourselves, and in and with others...
Actually I think the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked and people are very quick to claim that their heart is pure even if their deeds are not. If a man has ever seen his heart as God sees it will see that the deeds are often bad and the heart is much much worse.
The superficial gets magnified, while the important gets overlooked, and brushed aside, and all to often, just flat out ignored... And this is, in part, due to the superficial being magnified also...
While this can happen, I do not see this as very common except in very religious people who operate by rules.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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question, I felt like my heart was wrong with God, and then like I am trying to love others to hopefully get back to God, but the problem is that if your heart is not right with God, it seems impossible to properly love other people. since your motives are off, just a thought. if you love God who you can't see, then you can be free to love others right? or is it the other way around. (I am confused, so this post is more of a please help me sort this mess out post.) I mean, pride comes from serving others if it is done for the wrong reasons. self righteousness can be bred.
IF you feel you are not right with God, the answer is repentance and asking for forgiveness, not working your way back on your own. No works on our part will earn us forgiveness. We must repent and ask for forgivness. We cannot work for it.
 
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St_Worm2

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Knowing is not causing. Sovereign does not mean tyranny (micro-managing.)
Hi Dorothy Mae, I'm sorry, but I think you've misunderstood what I've been saying in this thread.

In a reply to something BCsenior said earlier, I asked him, "do you believe that there are things that happen outside the purview and ordination of the Almighty?"

He answered, "of course".

So, is that what 'you' believe as well, that things have happened over the course of time that God has had no prior knowledge of before they happened?

If so, do you also believe that there are things that have happened (or that are happening right now) that He didn't give His prior consent to/allow to happen?

To be clear (with a "for instance"), I believe that God knows we will sin, that He clearly allows us to sin, but He never CAUSES us to sin.

--David
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Surrender is obedience. Not obedience of man but obedience through God's Spirit.
Actually when a war is lost, one side surrenders. Then comes submission. So submission is obedience. Surrender is the initial step.

And in practice we have to submit to the Spirit by obeying. We get help (grace) but the will must submit too.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Hi Dorothy Mae, I'm sorry, but I think you've misunderstood what I've been saying in this thread.

In a reply to something BCsenior said earlier, I asked him, "do you believe that there are things that happen outside the purview and ordination of the Almighty?"

He answered, "of course".

So, is that what 'you' believe as well, that things have happened over the course of time that God has had no prior knowledge of before they happened?
I’m afraid you are now misunderstanding me. I never said the above. Knowing is not causing or approving.
If so, do you also believe that there are things that have happened (or that are happening right now) that He didn't at least give His prior consent to/allow to happen?
He’s not micromanaging the world. Since we don’t ask permission to do what we want, it’s clear others aren’t as well. Knowledge and permission are not the same thing.
To be clear (with a "for instance"), I believe that God knows we will sin, and that He clearly allows us to sin, but He never CAUSES us to sin.

--David
What good does this do? God set up the world allowing sin to take place. There is freedom and therefore a limited allowance. Does this help us on any way? Of one is not careful, it leads to thinking God accepts sin. This is the false step.
 
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Yarddog

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Actually when a war is lost, one side surrenders. Then comes submission. So submission is obedience. Surrender is the initial step.

And in practice we have to submit to the Spirit by obeying. We get help (grace) but the will must submit too.
Semantics. Surrender and submission are synonyms.
 
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St_Worm2

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I’m afraid you are now misunderstanding me. I never said the above. Knowing is not causing or approving. He’s not micromanaging the world. Since we don’t ask permission to do what we want, it’s clear others aren’t as well. Knowledge and permission are not the same thing.What good does this do? God set up the world allowing sin to take place. There is freedom and therefore a limited allowance. Does this help us on any way? Of one is not careful, it leads to thinking God accepts sin. This is the false step.
Hi again Dorothy Mae, I never said/will never say that "knowing" is the same thing as "causing", or "approving", or "micromanaging", because (as you just said) knowledge and permission (or knowledge and cause) are not the same things.

So, you believe that God is omniscient, that He "knows" everything, and that, before any of it happens, yes? Or do you believe something else about God?

Assuming the former for the moment, do you also believe that God is sovereign? IOW, that He not only knows all, but is in control of all, AT LEAST to this degree, that there is nothing that happens, ever, that He has not at least "ALLOWED" to happen?

Thanks!

--David
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Matthew 22:37-38
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and great commandment.”

We actually must PROVE our LOVE for the LORD …

1 John 2:5, NLT
Those who obey God’s word truly show
how completely they love Him. That is how
we know we are living in Him.”

BACs who have “no condemnation” are “in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).

1 John 5:3, NLT
Loving God means keeping His commandments,
and His commandments are not burdensome.”


John 14:15-24
If you love Me, obey My commandments
… He who has My commandments and obeys them, it is he who loves Me
… If anyone loves Me, he will obey My word
… He who does NOT love Me
does NOT obey My words”


Does anyone get to heaven who does NOT love Jesus?
Those who love Jesus will obey His commandments!


IF you PROVE that you LOVE Jesus, then you have
met one of the qualifications for salvation …


Romans 8:28-30
“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”


Another way to PROVE your LOVE for the LORD …

James 1:12-15
“Blessed is the man who endures temptation;
for when he has been approved, he will receive
the crown of life which the Lord has promised to
those who love Him … But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived,
it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.”

Love Jesus >>> endure temptation >>>
do not sin >>> crown of (eternal) life


John 15:9-14
“… abide in My love.
If you obey My commandments,
you will abide in My love
… You are My friends,
if you do whatever I command you.”

Those who are Jesus’ friends will obey His commandments!
Does anyone get to heaven who is NOT Jesus’ friend?


John 15:6
“If anyone does NOT abide in Me,
he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”

Luke 10:25-28 is another good one.
 
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Just_a_Christian

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Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


Prove it to who?
If you say you know God, if you profess to love God, DOES IT MATTER ??? NO
It is CRYSTAL clear from the above verses that simply believing or having faith is not sufficient.

Many people have been brainwashed and confuse "works" with OBEDIENCE. If one is told to do something by God, how is that ever the equivalent of earning anything?? It isn't it just simply proves you have the "same" faith that Abraham did.
JUST DO IT
In Him
Great thread BTW
 
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Yarddog

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AND, if you totally surrender your own will to HIS, you will do as HE says, right?
In Him
That's bathe concept. Abraham surrendered and did what God told him to do. When God told him to go, he went. When God told him to sacrifice Isaac, he obeyed.

God lives within man through baptism of the Holy Spirit. Learn to listen as Abraham did. Surrender to that Spirit. That is living God.
 
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gordonhooker

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Hi Gordon, I think he actually did :)

The very same point that Ligon made, as well some other points and interesting bits of information are made by these folks in this short article, if you'd care to read it.

ncregister-logo-385x115.png


kk201510300824.jpg

Albert Chevallier Tayler, "St Francis" (1898)
What St. Francis of Assisi Didn’t Actually Say
Glenn Stanton

Last Sunday, our faithful deacon in the midst of his excellent homily used a quote that most of us have heard, perhaps many times.

Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.”​

It is always attributed to St. Francis of Assisi—founder of the Franciscan Order—and is intended to say that proclaiming the Gospel by example is more virtuous than actually proclaiming it with voice. It is a quote that has often rankled me because it seems to create a useless dichotomy between speech and action. Besides, the spirit behind it can be a little arrogant—which I’m sure our deacon didn’t intend—intimating that those who "practice the Gospel" are in reality more faithful to the faith than those who preach it.

But here's the fact: Our good Francis never said it or anything close.

None of his disciples or biographers have these very quotable words coming from his mouth. It doesn't show up in any of his writings. Not even close, really. The closest comes from his Rule of 1221 on how the Franciscans should practice their preaching:

No brother should preach contrary to the form and regulations of the holy Church nor unless he has been permitted by his minister . . . All the Friars . . . should preach by their deeds.

Essentially, make sure your deeds match your words. While there's a nice and good sentiment in the statement—be sure you live out the grace and truth of the Gospel—the notion as it is typically presented is neither practical, nor faithful to the Gospel of Christ. It does not align with St. Francis' own practice.

His first biographer, Thomas of Celano, writing just three years after Francis' death, quotes him instructing his co-workers in the Gospel thusly:

The preacher must first draw from secret prayers what he will later pour out in holy sermons; he must first grow hot within before he speaks words that are in themselves cold.​

Our man clearly spent a great deal of time using his words when he preached, “sometimes preaching in up to five villages a day, often outdoors. In the country, Francis often spoke from a bale of straw or a granary doorway. In town, he would climb on a box or up steps in a public building. He preached to . . . any who gathered to hear the strange but fiery little preacher from Assisi.” He was sometimes so animated and passionate in his delivery that “his feet moved as if he were dancing.”

We must know that it's simply impossible to proclaim the Gospel without words and of course our good Francis knew this as well as any. The Gospel is inherently verbal, and preaching the Gospel is inherently verbal behavior.

If you'd like to read the rest of this article, go here: What St. Francis of Assisi Didn’t Actually Say

I disagree I don't believe he does get the gist of that quote - which is attributed to Franciscan philosophy. I agree with the author of that article that says St. Francis did not use those exact words but he teaches his brothers to not just preach with words but to preach also by actions and by example. One of his stories from the Francis of Assisi Early Documents FAED which is a 3 Volume series that cover his life tells this story in a number of ways. One I remember from early days of Franciscan formation as a Tertiary goes something like this:

One morning Francis asked one of the new brothers to go up into Assisi to preach with him so the young brother went with him into Assisi and they walked from one side of the village to other nodding and smiling at all the people they met, enjoying the walk and beauty of the sky and Gods creation. Walking back down to the hermitage the young brother said to Francis we did not preach to the people and Francis answered the young brother saying we did preach to the people brother, we did so by our love for them and our joy as we lived in the moments of our walking and nodding and smiling at all the people we met on the way.

So Ligon measuring stick for preaching is intellect and words rather than just being in the moment in joy with Christ.
 
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Strong in Him

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Matthew 22:37-38
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and great commandment.”

We actually must PROVE our LOVE for the LORD …

No.
We love because he first loved us, 1 John 4:19.
If someone does not know that God loves them, how much he loves them and what he has done for them, they will not be able to respond to him in love.

1 John 2:5, NLT
Those who obey God’s word truly show
how completely they love Him. That is how
we know we are living in Him.”

BACs who have “no condemnation” are “in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).

1 John 5:3, NLT
Loving God means keeping His commandments,
and His commandments are not burdensome.”


John 14:15-24
If you love Me, obey My commandments
… He who has My commandments and obeys them, it is he who loves Me
… If anyone loves Me, he will obey My word
… He who does NOT love Me
does NOT obey My words”


Does anyone get to heaven who does NOT love Jesus?
Those who love Jesus will obey His commandments!


IF you PROVE that you LOVE Jesus, then you have
met one of the qualifications for salvation …

No.
Apart from the fact that that's impossible - we are saved because the Holy Spirit draws us to Jesus so that we can be forgiven of our sins and have eternal life - that makes salvation sound conditional; i.e "PROVE you love me and I will save you".
Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8.

James 1:12-15
“Blessed is the man who endures temptation;
for when he has been approved, he will receive
the crown of life which the Lord has promised to
those who love Him … But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived,
it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.”

Love Jesus >>> endure temptation >>>
do not sin >>> crown of (eternal) life

There are plenty of people who are self disciplined and resist all kinds of temptations, who aren't even Christian.

You're making it sound as though we need to prove to God that we are worthy of salvation.
We can't.
ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23. The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23.
If human beings could save themselves, the Jews would have done it by keeping God's law perfectly; we'd convert to Judaism to become one of God's people, and Jesus would never have come. It is because we are sinners, godless and completely unable to DO anything to reconcile ourselves to God, be forgiven and be saved, that Jesus died.
God has already shown his love by sending Jesus - he has shown that he loves us. If we respond to that love, we will be saved and able to receive the love that God longs to pour into our hearts.

Jesus gave us a NEW commandment - to love as he loved us, John 13:34.
How did he love us? By laying down his perfect life as a sacrifice for sinners who deserved only death and separation from God. That is Agape, divine, love. How do we love with divine love? By asking God to give it to us - to fill us with his love. We love because he first loved us. When we are saved, we can ask to be filled with God's Holy Spirit - one of the fruits that the Holy Spirit produces in us, is love, Galatians 5:22.
 
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Thanks, Gracia ...
the Lord wants people to see all of
these NT Scriptures that I post!
Their pastors don't show them,

Really?
What evidence do you have that Pastors are not showing/proclaiming Scripture to people?
 
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St_Worm2

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I agree with the author of that article that says St. Francis did not use those exact words ... but he teaches his brothers to not just preach with words but to preach also by actions and by example.
Gordon, if that's what you got out of the article, then I'm thinking that you may have missed the point of it. As the article's author said,

"Here's the fact: Our good Francis never said it or anything close."​

He also said,

"We must know that it's simply impossible to proclaim the Gospel without words and of course our good Francis knew this as well as any. The Gospel is inherently verbal, and preaching the Gospel is an inherently verbal behavior."
He also made it clear that Francis' life/his ministry (as an extremely active itinerant "preacher"), fundamentally denies what that quote (“Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary”) teaches.

On the other hand, Ligon's quote never denies the necessity of acting like a Christian, nor the necessity of speaking the truth in love, rather, He simply says that the Gospel cannot be 'preached' by our actions ~apart~ from using words, which is the very thing that this quote, “Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary”, tells us we should do!

After all, as the Lord tells us plainly through the pen of St. Paul, "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" .. Romans 10:17.

--David
p.s. - question, do you know/know of anyone who has come to saving faith in Christ without hearing who Jesus is, what He did for us & why, without hearing the Gospel first? I haven't. As Charles Spurgeon says below, "let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for" :preach:


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Neogaia777

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How do (keeping) the commandments become not burdensome...?

My answer: By not really "trying" to keep them...

It will just happen as a natural result of truly walking (out, this life) with God, loving and caring and showing it and following up with action and deed, as He does...

It isn't about keeping the commandments, or at least "trying" to... It's about Love and walking out life, and this life and your journey, this journey, with God... Keeping the commandments will be a result, yes, but not by your own keeping your eye on it, so to speak, if you do that, you fail and it kills you, or should kill you, as sin actually revives (sinful, evil wicked desires/temptations and thoughts even), "if" you do that, (or are mindful of keeping and obeying it to an excessive degree, especially "the letter, to the letter") anyway, if you do that, you soon become a Pharisee and a hypocrite of the kind Jesus hated most, and thought was the most wicked, (it's curse)...

It was not made to save at all... the letter of the law... The "original code or Spirit" of the, and that law, maybe, but not the letter... and not anything in the way of a commandment either... Funny you would see it that way, and then say you love Him, or know Him, or "whatever"... Anyway,

If anything might have to be "chosen" by us, or that our will needs to be submitted to, it is to Love other people as God does, because (you will find) that kind of Love is just "not natural" usually, on the surface, and does not come naturally, and that, needs needs to submitted to that, or Him... And you may have to exercise your own will to truly do it, but/and against your own nature (and sometimes better judgment) much of the time...
 
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St_Worm2

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How do (keeping) the commandments become not burdensome...?
Hi Neogaia777, keeping the commandments was a burden to me before I became a Christian, because I was unable to keep them (even though I knew I should be).

Once I became a Christian, my desires shifted from wanting to please myself all the time to wanting to please God instead, so His commandments became my source, my basic set of instructions for knowing how to do just that :) (plus I was finally able to both understand them and keep them for the very first time in my life .. for the most part anyway as I, sadly and to my shame, do not keep them perfectly).

--David
p.s. - I made a blind post here, so I hope that I am replying to what you were actually asking :sorry:
 
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How do (keeping) the commandments become not burdensome...?

If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
If we love someone, it's not a problem, or a hardship, to do as they ask. If we love someone we want to please, and not hurt, them.

The thing is that we can't hear the tone of voice that Jesus used at the time, and written words can be taken a number of ways.
Some seem to read this as though Jesus were blackmailing his disciples "IF you love me ...."; as though Jesus is asking us to do something really horrible/difficult, and when we hesitate, he says "you'd do it if you loved me". So Christians sometimes spend their time DOING things, thinking "I am DOING all this; it must prove that I love Jesus."

Jesus' NEW commandment was to love as he loves us.
We can't keep that - love others with that divine, agape love - unless we have first known, and received, that love from God.
We love because God first loved us, 1 John 4:19.
If we know how much God loves us and have received his love, we will be able to love others, and God, with that same love. So if we love Jesus, it can only be because we have received love from God - and then, when we have received divine, agape love from God, we will be able to love others, as Jesus did.
 
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